Damn ATI!

[AloneInTheDark]

Brand new PC I built 2-3months ago, Quad core Q6600, 8GB RAM... oh the misstake of putting an ATI Radeon 2400 XT HD in it. !"#¤@£$... Running Vista x64, it decides to randomly get a nice blue ( black ) as in total darkness screen and lock the whole machine. Only a hard reboot is the option.

Vista pointed out that this is a specific ATI problem and they don't have any fix for it yet! Eventhough I am running the latest version of the drivers.

I'm pondering of buying an Nvidia and replace this junk, I almost lost a whole night of code! A couple of files just got currupted when the PC locked up, good thing Visual C# does a backup for me.

Damn ATI! Damn them to hell!

[abh!shek]

ATI did the same to my Kubuntu partition. :/

[psychopath]

I was under the impression that the ATI drivers had gotten better. Although I'm thinking the x64 edition might be the source of some of your driver instability. Not saying that's the way it should be, but if you intend to keep that card you might want to consider 32-bit Vista.

At least I hope that's what it is. I plan on getting a 3850 in the next few weeks :/.

[AloneInTheDark]

I was under the impression that the ATI drivers had gotten better. Although I'm thinking the x64 edition might be the source of some of your driver instability. Not saying that's the way it should be, but if you intend to keep that card you might want to consider 32-bit Vista.

At least I hope that's what it is. I plan on getting a 3850 in the next few weeks :/.

I thought NVidia had driver issues, that's why I went with ATI. I'll be putting an Nvidia card as soon my paycheck comes!

regarding 32bit, since I got 8GB RAM I do prefer to stick with 64bit software.

[Mario F.]

ATI is not to blame here. That card is Vista certified. That means... the usual suspect.

Frankly, I'm impressed at Vista problems. I think they may have beaten XP launch. And all this for an OS that didn't deliver what was initially promised and is, in essence, just XP with a new look.

[AloneInTheDark]

ATI is not to blame here. That card is Vista certified. That means... the usual suspect.

Frankly, I'm impressed at Vista problems. I think they may have beaten XP launch. And all this for an OS that didn't deliver what was initially promised and is, in essence, just XP with a new look.

This is clearly a driver issue, not sure how you point the problem to the OS.

Vista is ABSOLUTELY NOT "XP with a new look"! I suggest you check out channel9.msdn.com and watch some of the videos about Vista. There are many great things in Vista.

[Mario F.]

This is clearly a driver issue, not sure how you point the problem to the OS.

Absolutely. It's a driver issue. Which keeps proving over and over again Microsoft certification program is all screwed. I'll stand corrected and point instead the problem to both ATI and Microsoft.

Vista is ABSOLUTELY NOT "XP with a new look"! I suggest you check out channel9.msdn.com and watch some of the videos about Vista. There are many great things in Vista.

Most of these things are cosmetic changes. Nevertheless, this was debated to exhaustion already. Here as in many other discussion groups. Some agree, others don't.

[AloneInTheDark]

Absolutely. It's a driver issue. Which keeps proving over and over again Microsoft certification program is all screwed. I'll stand corrected and point instead the problem to both ATI and Microsoft.

Oh yeah, that's a big joke for sure. Same with PCs certified for Vista with only 512MB RAM. hehhe... Vista needs atleast 2GB to float. My gf had only 1GB and wasn't fun at all until we put another 1GB into it.

Most of these things are cosmetic changes. Nevertheless, this was debated to exhaustion already. Here as in many other discussion groups. Some agree, other's don't.

Well, a lot of the features are unseen to most users but they are definitly not "just" cosmetics, to name a few :

• Graphical Interface is now using GPU.
• DX10.x
• A strong Search functionality.
• IIS7
• Drivers in userspace instead of kernel.
• Hotpatching without reboot ( SP1 )
• UAC ( Almost no need for AV anymore )
• Ability to run as limited user without trouble, being able to elevate to admin upon need.
• ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomization).
• DEP
• Function Pointer Obfuscation
• Windows Service Hardening
• A MUCH better firewall
• NX technologies at the Hardware Level
• PatchGuard
• File System and Registry Virtualization
• Internet Explorer Protected Mode
• NTFS junction points
• BitLocker Drive Encryption

Not that I'm a Microsoft fan
( I am ) hehhe...

[Elysia]

Well, someone seems to love Vista
Vista is nice, has some new interesting things, but nowhere near worth the money for upgrade. Especially due to instability and incompatibility.
Oh and UAC doesn't replace AV software. In fact, UAC screws up about everything, so I actually go as far as recommending to disable it.
And Windows Firewall/Defender is crapware and we know it. It doesn't matter how better than the XP Firewall it is. A 3rd party firewall is to recommend.

[zacs7]

Sigh, someone's been sold by the marketing ploy.

[AloneInTheDark]

Sigh, someone's been sold by the marketing ploy.

Well, are you suggesting the above fact is untrue? In that case which one of them?

[CornedBee]

1) GFX using GPU is nice for the candy, but not a real improvement.
2) The only reason DX10 is only available for Vista is a marketing ploy by MS.
3) Most people disable the indexing because it slows down their computer to a crawl.
4) I fail to see how a normal user can see that as an advantage. And Apache is better anyway.
5) Yet they still manage to crash the entire OS. Actually the whole purpose of userspace drivers is that they shouldn't be able to do that.
6) Well, finally!
7) Most Vista users I know disable UAC because it's so annoying.


Anyway, ATI seems to be entirely incapable of producing stable 64-bit drivers. It's the same on my Linux box. I can't upgrade beyond 8.42 because it hangs.

[Mario F.]

Many of the things you meantioned, AloneInTheDark, are typical of a new OS installment. Others are rightful improvements on a new product that however don't really bring much in terms of usefulness. Others yet are simply useless. And others yet are even advised to be avoided.

Windows Vista has been 5 years in development. When they first considered the 2003 code base, they promised the world. And this is where it failed the first time. Technologies promised then included, to name probably the most important, a completely new file system - the now infamous WinFS - and Virtual Folders, which do exist in a way but nothing like it was first envisioned.

WinFS alone sold Vista idea to about anyone. It would probably be the biggest upgrade to a Microsoft OS since Windows 95 replaced 3.11. I was told once Vista new indexing system minimizes the damage. I can't agree with this. WinFS wasn't just about file indexing. For one, most people disable it because, as pointed out, it sends their computers to a crawl. For another, WinFS is first about storage, then about indexing, just like any other database.

What I agree however with the majority of analysts that say Vista new code base provides a strong backbone for further improvements. Not really because I know anything of that, but because they are... well, the majority. I'd thus say we will see Vista get better and better as patches are applied and new stuff included.

What we don't see now, however, is a product that could rival XP, were XP made by a different company. This really means, the biggest rival to Vista is XP in my opinion as many still refuse to upgrade and other even go back to XP after experiencing Vista.

...

As for ATI, I stand by my point of view. Microsoft really has to review their hardware certification scheme. It's losing its credibility.

[AloneInTheDark]

Yepp, the problem with Vista is most of the new changes are technical and can't be seen by the end user in a way that it gives a positive impact on their experience.

I remember when my brother installed Vista, the indexer were trashing the drive like mad and this kind of thing puts people off. Me being a technical guy I allowed it to trash my PC 4 nights since I got almost 2 millions of files and now I have a very great experience using the search. SPECIALLY since I also manually chose which folders I need to be indexing. But again, the end user just hates it when the drive never stops working 1-2 nights.

As you said, I too think Vista is just some sort of half step towards windows7. It's just the backbone of what is to come.

I do undrestand people not wanting to move to Vista from XP but I also hope and think there will be a change of attitude when windows7 comes and I think many many XP users will do the jump and skip Vista allt ogether.

and back to subject... just had another blackscreen, follow up by a bluescreen! *lol* I am going to buy an NVidia card next week ( will have to borrow cash )

To "psychopath", you could wait to buy that 3850 card, I will post the experience from the Nvidia card here if you want and perhaps you change your mind and go Nvidia too. Although, Not sure what OS you are running but if going for Vx64 I wouldn't recommend ATI.

A quick note, my brother has Vx64 with some Nvidia card and he has had zero issues.

[VirtualAce]

Allow me to respond to that 'feature' list:

1. Graphical Interface is now using GPU.
2. DX10.x
3. A strong Search functionality.
4. IIS7
5. Drivers in userspace instead of kernel.
6. Hotpatching without reboot ( SP1 )
7. UAC ( Almost no need for AV anymore )
8. Ability to run as limited user without trouble, being able to elevate to admin upon need.
9. ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomization).
10. DEP
11. Function Pointer Obfuscation
12. Windows Service Hardening
13. A MUCH better firewall
14. NX technologies at the Hardware Level
15. PatchGuard
16. File System and Registry Virtualization
17. Internet Explorer Protected Mode
18. NTFS junction points
19. BitLocker Drive Encryption

I'll respond to the ones I know about.

1. Graphical Interface is now using GPU.
Aero does look nice. I'll give you that much.

2. DX10.x
This is worthless. DX10 has been proven thus far to be slower than DX9. Perhaps this is because of cards, perhaps it's because almost every video driver for Vista has some issue with it. Perhaps it's because DX10 is just terrible.

3. A strong Search functionality.
Who really uses search? There are several thirdy party search progams that do far more, far faster, and far better. As of writing this the indexing system in Vista is completely broken. Turning it off gives a very big performance boost.

5. Drivers in userspace instead of kernel.
This has nothing to do with my system or how it runs. The kernel in Vista runs terrible and the drivers all but suck. So if they are in userspace perhaps they ought to go back to kernel. Actually perhaps they all ought to go into a flaming pile of poo b/c that's what most of them are worth. And I don't believe they are in userspace b/c most newer Vista video drivers (from both ATI and NVidia) have a strange tendency to blue screen and bomb.
My agp driver in Vista (granted AGP is old, but) blue screened on 3GB.

6. Hotpatching without reboot ( SP1 )
Hehe. So they say. Updating Vista OEM was no different than XP. We will see with SP1 but I seriously doubt it will work. I can't tell now b/c I unistalled Vista and went back to XP.

7. UAC ( Almost no need for AV anymore )
I'd rather have my AV. UAC sucks. Plain and simple it is terrible and completely annoying. Problem is if you turn it off you do lose security features and if you turn it on you get to answer 50 questions to do one operation. Abominable invention. But it was never designed to replace AV. In fact I'm not sure the dev team ever really knew what it was designed for.

8. Ability to run as limited user without trouble, being able to elevate to admin upon need.
This is a complete lie. All programs run as limited user regardless if your current profile is admin or not. See there is a BUG in Vista where it does not actually see admins. Perhaps SP1 will fix this. As of right now you must specify which programs should run in admin mode or they simply won't do it. Again very stupid. If you are logged on as admin...um...you should be admin. Nope not in Vista.

12. Windows Service Hardening
I'm not sure what this means but most of the newer services were memory hogs and/or threw exceptions at times. I'd rather turn most of em off anyways. Way too many services doing absolutely nothing.

13. A MUCH better firewall
Which still in the scheme of things blows chunks. It is a HUGE resource hog and shutting it off will not only eliminate a lot of stupid internet based security questions but it will also increase performance. I know because I tried it and it made a big difference. And Windows Defender is another big hog and sub-par compared to other companies that specialize in creating software like Defender.

16. File System and Registry Virtualization
The file system in Vista is completely broken. Rumors have it that even SP1 does not fix the one hour to unzip 10mb bug. This is supposedly cause by DRM or digital rights management. I tried to unzip some files from work while working from home and it took literally forever. My dev box at work has XP and it took like 4 seconds to zip it up and took an hour and a half to unzip it on Vista. Whats with Vista saying it's copying such and such to your drive after you download it? And it takes forever.....
Unacceptable.

17. Internet Explorer Protected Mode
I noticed nothing different about IE except that it was a bit slower and clunkier and crashed more. Nice new feature. Personally I'd rather have a dumb IE that worked than a super savvy secure one that crashes.

18. NTFS junction points
Which are nothing short of confusing. Again they tried to implement a good idea from Linux or moreso steal it....and it sucks in the MS version. Those junctions are more annoying than anything. I'm still not sure why I'd ever use them.

19. BitLocker Drive Encryption
You really want Microsoft encrypting and protecting your drive? Vista already insists on asking you endless questions about stupid crap - I really don't want it touching my data. I could imagine the encryption 'service' dying a horrible death and then my data could never be read. Nice.

So yep, Vista is great. So great I went back to XP after the first week. I'd rather spend my time updating and re-installing all my games, MSVS, SDKs, etc, etc...than spend one more week with Vista. Just face it...Vista is the new ME. It will take some major overhauls to get Vista anywhere near XP. And yet Vista is supposed to be an upgrade from XP?