Which language should universities use: C++ or Java?

[xddxogm3]

Ober,
I'm still not sure why you docked me points, but I really do not care.
As for the programming languages that should be taught in school.
I believe all of them should be taught. One thing that is true from the posts on this thread is that no matter where you start. Java, C++, etc. you can carry the concepts to the majority of the other languages out there. OOP I believe is the best way to start, do to I believe the current trend in industry is to move in that direction. Java and C++ give you this, so this should be mandatory classes. As for why I believe any language should be taught. I work at a place that still writes all of thier code in COBOL. This language is not taught at any school (at least where I live), and to limit languages at schools restricts the capability of any up and coming programmer to work at a job that has archaic technology.

[VirtualAce]

not really, if one has trouble keeping track of registers.... well then IMO the person doesnt have the memory/logic capacity to do programming.

100% agree. Actually 1000% agree.

Note to people posting: Do not continue to talk about languages/APIs that you have had no exposure to. Lots of people claim assembly is hard and yet about 2% of those saying that have ever tried it. This is not CNN so just hearing it from someone else does not make it fact. If you don't know.....don't talk about it.

Asm is not hard. DirectX/OpenGL are not hard. C/C++ is not hard. But if you simply base your opinions off of what you have heard rather than what you have tried....you are your own worst enemy when it comes to programming.

Fact is if you are cut out for programming, you can learn any language in the field. Compilers and languages are just complicated or simple expression parsers that simplify the process of coding an entire program in pure assembly. I believe that if you have a very good understanding of C/C++ then you can pretty much learn any language, but I recommend learning assembly first. Had I learned assembly prior to C/C++ my learning curve would have been significantly shortened.

[major_small]

Ober,
I'm still not sure why you docked me points, but I really do not care.
As for the programming languages that should be taught in school.
I believe all of them should be taught. One thing that is true from the posts on this thread is that no matter where you start. Java, C++, etc. you can carry the concepts to the majority of the other languages out there.

that's the point of the thread... if you actually read the OP, you would realize that... the entire topic of discussion here is which language should you learn FIRST so you can learn 'programming' in general.

second, if you can't find a school that teaches a language, learn it yourself! I was mostly self-taught... and I'm sure most of the people on this board have done a great deal of self-informing, with or without going to school for maybe the same topics.

ASM is something I've been wanting to learn for quite a while now... I just don't have the time for it right now...

[kermit]

At Waterloo, all software engineers do C#, AFAIK. Everyone else does Java.

Yes, but if I recall correctly, there was an issue of some strings being attached to a grant the University received from Microsoft. Of course if you go down to the computer science club office there [at UW], you might notice a *very* worn copy of K&R2 sitting on the desk...

[EvBladeRunnervE]

Had I learned assembly prior to C/C++ my learning curve would have been significantly shortened.

I really wish I had started out with assembler, all of the hard things for new C programmers(pointers,proper memory allocation) are really easy and intuitive in assembler, as you work with them all the time.

second, if you can't find a school that teaches a language, learn it yourself! I was mostly self-taught... and I'm sure most of the people on this board have done a great deal of self-informing, with or without going to school for maybe the same topics.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement. I have never had a good programming language teacher mainly because most proffesors havent been in the field for around 20 years and therefore really dont have the concept of what to do these days, or they are detached from reality from living in a shell most of theire lives.

[none]

I really wish I had started out with assembler, all of the hard things for new C programmers(pointers,proper memory allocation) are really easy and intuitive in assembler, as you work with them all the time.

really true. its amazing how much pointers are easy to understand in assembly yet when you take a book about C++ and reach the section about pointers you suddenly feel that some authors are almost afraid of scaring the reader when they start talking about pointers.

[ventolin]

Hm, interesting debate, let me add my own experiences..

Ive been through 2 CS degress now and feel that C/C++ does make the better language to learn from the start.

In my 1st year of my undergrad degree we learnt Pascal, now as i had been reading/learning c for years prior, i was happy with pascal (albeit less powerful than c). Many students on the course found pascal nice and simple to use and many progressed nicely through programming 101 and data structures in pascal.

When i moved onto my second year, we began with C and Java, and obviously i felt a lot more comfortable with this than other students who had not seen it before. Now as we were 2nd years, the programming assignments were more difficult to program because of C/Java being new etc although the problems were again the classic banking problems with File I/O somewhere in there. Many of the students found C rather difficult (now some could argue that they never attended classes - well some didnt, i admit, but on the whole 80% attended nearly all the classes)

Most of the student found the transition from Pascal to C much too hard a task, and Java even more a problem. Many found the assignments used v.simple data structures but had problems with pointers etc (even tho they had "learned" them in Pascal). Many of my friends also had problems, and the general feeling among student was that if C had been taught as a first language they would have been better off in their 2nd years, or even allowed the 1st year to learn the basics slowly over a year, then begin with more difficult problems. Many of my friends said this would have been a better option, as they knew c was the better to learn to them in the long run.

Now one could argue that C isnt hard, its just they werent bright enough, well many of them went onto get through the courses as C was not a language used much after the 2nd year, hence many passed, and hence didnt feel the need to really understand C. as many of them used Pascal for their 3rd year projects and i felt this was dentrimental to their job/career prospects if they ever wanted to get a good programming job, as Pascal isnt something a employee looks for on a Resume/CV nowadays.

Well Java is another ball game altogether, in my second degree we were spoon fed java in every course (3d gfx etc) and many were happy to use this lang as its not hard or difficult to get to grips with data structures/containers etc. On speaking to many of them, none had ever touched C or C++ in their programming careers, and when asked if they could competently program a linked list in C or C++, a lot of my friends would say they had no idea how.

i feel C/C++ allows programmers to get to grips with how to do the low down "dirty" stuff in programming, whereas java gives you little opportunity to understand the fundamentals of a quick sort algorithm or a map container, as this is essentially taken for granted in Java. One could argue Java is dumbing down programming, as, if everyone used java in the future, then a lot of the fundamentals about things like ports/IO/asm/threads would be lost as everyone would only know how to call the create thread function in java , but not know how it really works!

Although this could be true, one could argue the reverse, java makes programming easier, so in the future everyone can just pick it up - which is a good thing?

I honestly feel that the whole Java thing will eventually die out, pretty much like Smalltalk did in the 80s and again C/C++ will rule the commercial markets for mainstream applications.

So my vote is with C/C++ being learnt from as early on in your career in programming.

[abyssphobia]

well my first lenguage was qbasic , when I was in high school, but then in college was c++
and I just love it. and Im beggining in Assembler, that seem so dificult to me, but its ok, for this reason I just love it .

[coolspot]

I think C++ should be taught, first because of its computing power, second it is faster than java, since java needs an interpreter, which will make it slow. Another point is when you know C++ you almost know everything important stuff about java, while if you know java you barely know C++.

I think one advantage of java is when building GUI it is much easier than building GUI in C++.