Web Design

[wildcard_seven]

Am I the only one who finds it harder than "real" coding? I mean, that is, if you prefer web pages that don't look like fried poo.

I am srs

[Yarin]

Uh, yeah.

Once pages/sites reach a certain maturity level, they usually start including script of some kind (mostly JS), which _is_ (technically) real programming.

Also, when you program for "real" [sic], you use high-level libraries to help you, right? Well, if you feel the need, you should check out high-level libraries & frameworks for JS.

EDIT: Oh, and you say "real" programming, but have you actually made a C(++) program that wouldn't be considered "fried poo" by the same standards? Don't take offense, I'm simply not sure where you are there.

[whiteflags]

I'd agree with Yarin, but I also have more general advice. If you find web design difficult because Web technology is difficult, get a WYSIWYG editor. By letting it do the work, you can focus on more important things, and you get a lot of code to start with. You can always fix HTML later. If you find Web design difficult because you're not an artist, then you will have to lower your expectations and focus on what you can make. Because again, you can fix it later.

There are lots of good tools out there now and entire layouts you can just borrow. It shouldn't be hard anymore.

[wildcard_seven]

Uh, yeah.

Once pages/sites reach a certain maturity level, they usually start including script of some kind (mostly JS), which _is_ (technically) real programming.

Also, when you program for "real" [sic], you use high-level libraries to help you, right? Well, if you feel the need, you should check out high-level libraries & frameworks for JS.

EDIT: Oh, and you say "real" programming, but have you actually made a C(++) program that wouldn't be considered "fried poo" by the same standards? Don't take offense, I'm simply not sure where you are there.

I completely agree with you. I'm actually shocked by (going to school) people who talk like making web sites is "kiddie stuff". Not my experience at all, so I just thought I'd throw my thought beams out into the internetz and see what it said.

[spaghetticode]

@wildcard_seven - I get the feeling that what you really mean is layout stuff. That may be - just as is the case with me - because you're not a good artist / designer. The sheer technology, as others have already spotted out, is nothing far from what you call "real programming". It's language and techniques, and with some effort, you won't have a harder time learning that than any "real programming language". But the world wide web is an extensively visual medium, and to make good web pages you have to have a good deal of talent in visual stuff. When it comes to GUI designing in "real programming" and you don't use WYSIWYG GUI editors you will find a lot of difficulties too.

[wildcard_seven]

Something else I've noticed as I go along (doing an assignment that makes a website using php/mysql/html), is that there seems to be a whole lot of opinion involved in web design, or at least outside of web standards which give you the bare bones framework, there are few agreements on how to do things. Combining php and css using echo? One person says this way, another says that way, another says just don't do it. I think the one thing I've really noticed, is there are few authority figures. For instance, on these forums, a couple goofballs might be mangling some code, when some veteran comes along and sets them straight. And when they give the solution, it's pretty obvious they're right. Even in my own class, my teacher hardly speaks about the subject with authority. It's more of, "Here's a way that will work. I'm just saying it will work. I cannot confirm or deny if it's the best way." It's really bizarre.

Anyhow, it's been a very odd portion of my CS experience.

[Yarin]

Combining php and css using echo? One person says this way, another says that way, another says just don't do it.

If you choose to use PHP, and you want to dynamically serve CSS, then of course you would do that. Any logical disagreement about it would have to stem from a different issue.
You seem to have the wrong idea: Web design isn't any more bizarre or opinionated, (or, as I see it, just plain messy), than program or OS design. In fact, I would say it's a bit little cleaner and more standardized.

[laserlight]

Something else I've noticed as I go along (doing an assignment that makes a website using php/mysql/html), is that there seems to be a whole lot of opinion involved in web design, or at least outside of web standards which give you the bare bones framework, there are few agreements on how to do things. Combining php and css using echo? One person says this way, another says that way, another says just don't do it. I think the one thing I've really noticed, is there are few authority figures. For instance, on these forums, a couple goofballs might be mangling some code, when some veteran comes along and sets them straight. And when they give the solution, it's pretty obvious they're right. Even in my own class, my teacher hardly speaks about the subject with authority. It's more of, "Here's a way that will work. I'm just saying it will work. I cannot confirm or deny if it's the best way." It's really bizarre.

It sounds like your experience with this community has given you the false notion that in C and C++ programming, there is usually a One True Design that veterans dispense to goofballs. The truth is that there is a whole lot of opinion involved in software design, and language standards do not say anything about software design, even though language features and standard library components may be designed to facilitate certain programming paradigms, design patterns and language idioms.

[Fordy]

I hate webdesign. If I am doing some sort of web programming, it's the part I'll get most frustrated with. I love the database work, remote procedure calls, designing security subsystems, but css & colour schemes kill me. I can spend ages designing something, trying to get it right and it always looks like poop in the cold light of day. No artistic flair, I'm afraid....

[Epy]

Web design sucks because CSS never works as you expect it to, and almost every browser displays things differently which further complicates things.

[spaghetticode]

Web design sucks because CSS never works as you expect it to, and almost every browser displays things differently which further complicates things.

Everything but the fault of CSS *winks to Microsoft*...

[MK27]

I like web dev, altho doing small scale projects (eg, www dot somelittlebusiness dot com) is much more about page design than programming. And like most everyone else in this thread, I find the page design aspect tedious and prefer stuff with more coding.

Combining php and css using echo? One person says this way, another says that way, another says just don't do it. I think the one thing I've really noticed, is there are few authority figures.

There are a lot of "competing technologies" involved server-side, because you can do whatever you want however you want on the server, keeping in mind the nature of what it is you have to deliver to the client.

If you are new to this, it's important to understand some basic stuff such as MVC (model-view-controller) design, and how the HTTP server-client model works.

The "AMP" (Apache, MySQL, + php, perl, or python) system is probably a good place to start -- not because any of those things is the greatest best and only way to work, but because it's widely used, recognized and documented (and platform independent). Once you can do stuff in an AMP style you will be able to evaluate various available alternatives and probably come up with some of your own.

Until you do, don't even bother with all the discussion of various trends and technology. That's like shopping for a car before you learn how to drive. Pretentious and silly.

Web design sucks because CSS never works as you expect it to, and almost every browser displays things differently which further complicates things.

It takes a lot of getting used to, but a lot of things are like that. Definitely test in firefox, IE (preferably older ones which are quirkier; I no longer bother with 6 unless required, but I always test 7), Safari, Chrome. Don't get elaborate only using your preferred browser -- you'll just end up having to re-learn stuff because what seems like the easy and obvious way is not always the best/correct/most portable way.

You also need to learn javascript for client-side programming, particularly what the DOM is, and AJAX. Considered as a general purpose, dynamically typed, OO + garbage collection language, JS is okay, but considered in a specialized context (for use with an interpreter built into web browsers), it has a lot going for it. Investigate JQuery, particularly for AJAX stuff, as it adds a degree of standardization and resolves a lot of brower specific issues, but try as much as you can not to depend on it for everything as that will warp your understanding of js itself.