i need a non .net 64bit windows compiler

after fiddling around with c++ express, i found it all based on the blasted .net platform which i do not want to get involved with. i wish someone had warned me.

so what's the best c++ compiler that enables me to create non .net windows 64bit (or 32 if there is no alternatives) applications? visual studio 6 comes to mind, but will the compiler be upgraded to 64bit :hmmmm: Perhaps there is a better solution?

also is there a windows api guide for c++ programmers like the one for visual basic programmers here: http://allapi.mentalis.org/vbtutor/iapi2.shtml
which essentially is an application that covers all the api functions and provides worked code examples of each?

>> i found it all based on the blasted .net platform which i do not want to get involved with.
You just have to set the right options. It does not require .NET.

I don't know about 64bit applications, but for 32 bit applications a simple Win32 console application with Empty Project set to true is all you need.

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Originally Posted by Daved

>> i found it all based on the blasted .net platform which i do not want to get involved with.
You just have to set the right options. It does not require .NET.

I don't know about 64bit applications, but for 32 bit applications a simple Win32 console application with Empty Project set to true is all you need.

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but i spent ages creating windows forms etc, only to find all the controls were .net based, console apps are fine, but can i write a c++ non .net windows interface?

Yes. You have to download the SDK if you haven't already. It's not as "easy" as using forms, but if you are familiar with windows programming in C or C++ it isn't really any different. If you're not familiar with it it is complicated but you can still do it with .Net 2005.

are you saying that there are no "forms" to drag and drop controls onto; and so you have to write all the windows code to create the forms and controls from scratch, is that what makes it complicated?

if that's the case Dave; i searched for other easier solutions...

here's a link with many c++ win compilers:
http://www.compilers.net/Dir/Free/Compilers/CCpp.htm

the ones that stand out are:
Borland C++ Compiler 5.5
Bloodshed Dev-C++
Digital Mars C and C++ Compilers
LCC-Win32
Mingw32 (2)

and this stood out the most:
http://www.intel.com/cd/software/pro...win/279578.htm
intel c++ 10.0, but it is $399 dollars, probably worth every cent.

has anyone tried some of them and can tell me which ones suck and which ones are good all the way through?

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Originally Posted by learning

are you saying that there are no "forms" to drag and drop controls onto; and so you have to write all the windows code to create the forms and controls from scratch, is that what makes it complicated?

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That's Win32 API coding. You know, that's why I hate RAD apps, like Visual Basic...makes people sometimes lazy at coding, why? Everything want it to be "drag and drop", I mean it helps..yeah, but where is the fun coding your own creation, and more important, free of non-standard libraries ;)

Previous versions of VC++ also have the class wizard, which is probably as close as you're going to get to dragging and dropping. I don't know if its close enough, though, and those previous versions might not be free either.

I'm not sure the other compilers have anything like you want either (maybe Borland?). Win32 programming in C or C++ isn't really drag and drop.

The current version has the dialog editor + MFC class wizard too - only not in the free edition.

You need Visual Studio 2005 Professional to get 64-bit support. The Express and Standard editions only output 32-bit code.

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Originally Posted by Joelito

That's Win32 API coding. You know, that's why I hate RAD apps, like Visual Basic...makes people sometimes lazy at coding, why? Everything want it to be "drag and drop", I mean it helps..yeah, but where is the fun coding your own creation, and more important, free of non-standard libraries ;)

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i understand what you are saying, however, writing everything from scratch all the time can be a drag and there is always bugs that have to be sorted out forever and a day. usually an application has a crux, and that is what a programmer should be spending their time on and not the basics. The problem with VB 6.0 was the lack of true oo and multithreading.

so the best part of vb 6.0 is the natural keywords and syntax and the ability to have relatively bug free base components to work with making it good rad. the worst part was that it was clipped in its implementation so everytime i got to something important vb was often limited, probably because its name includes the word basic ;)

c++ has to be the best solution for me now as there has to be lots of libraries and dlls to do all the basic stuff relatively bug free like create forms and basic controls and doesn't have the limitations of vb.

.net is a sore point for me, except to say that in my view if they want to go that way they should add a level of abstraction between the coder and the apis so that the compiler is multiplatform and multi cpu and creates exes containing only the optimised machine code for each sitution and therefore the programer should not require knowledge of any java or .net libraries. sure there may be some duplication of code between applications but not very much and the advantage is performance. so the coder should should only have to learn a single higher level set of objects rather than all the *nix, java, .net libraries if you get me? wouldn't it be great if we could just write an application and then the compiler just creates optimised compilations for every platform and chipset available at the time. "multirad" language anyone?

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Originally Posted by Daved

Previous versions of VC++ also have the class wizard, which is probably as close as you're going to get to dragging and dropping. I don't know if its close enough, though, and those previous versions might not be free either.

I'm not sure the other compilers have anything like you want either (maybe Borland?). Win32 programming in C or C++ isn't really drag and drop.

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i haven't tried those ides hence the question :) and i have run into too many problems with vb. isn't there some sort of drag and drop for the basic controls like forms and textboxes and buttons?

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

The current version has the dialog editor + MFC class wizard too - only not in the free edition.

You need Visual Studio 2005 Professional to get 64-bit support. The Express and Standard editions only output 32-bit code.

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ah ok, i didn't realise that, the reviews i read didn't point that out ;). have you tried other ides cornedbee? i imagine borland may upgrade their compiler to 64bit and my guess is they don't have the .net platform?

I'm not currently trying anything on the Win32 platform. My Linux compiler generates 64-bit code.

You could see if there's a 64-bit MinGW somewhere. Quickly browsing the MinGW page shows that there are development snapshots available.

Whats wrong with the GCC C++ compiler?

And no IBM's compiler priced at $399 doesn't mean its good, Its priced at $399 for the buisness support it provides, and the support IBM offers. Also its got IBM's name on it, + $300 ;)

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Originally Posted by learning

.net is a sore point for me, except to say that in my view if they want to go that way they should add a level of abstraction...multiplatform...multi cpu...snip

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So the coder learns your proposed API instead of another one. That's all fine and dandy until you realize two things:

1. All non-trivial abstractions leak. In the end, to really be effective, the end user will have to know both your API and something about the API's that you're trying to wrap.
2. During the creation of 'The One API,' some design choices must be made. These choices will influence what kinds of problems your API is designed to solve (or if you're being practical about it, the problems will influence the choices). So then later someone else decides that "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we had an API that did such-and-such instead of this terrible behavior in 'The One API'?" Then you end up with two or more API's. We might as well had not gone to the effort.

I think the closest we'll ever come to something like that is compiling to a cross-platform bytecode and then letting a system-specific runtime either JIT it or precompile it. Wait...that's exactly what .Net lets you do.

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Originally Posted by pianorain

So the coder learns your proposed API instead of another one. That's all fine and dandy until you realize two things:

1. All non-trivial abstractions leak. In the end, to really be effective, the end user will have to know both your API and something about the API's that you're trying to wrap.
2. During the creation of 'The One API,' some design choices must be made. These choices will influence what kinds of problems your API is designed to solve (or if you're being practical about it, the problems will influence the choices). So then later someone else decides that "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we had an API that did such-and-such instead of this terrible behavior in 'The One API'?" Then you end up with two or more API's. We might as well had not gone to the effort.

I think the closest we'll ever come to something like that is compiling to a cross-platform bytecode and then letting a system-specific runtime either JIT it or precompile it. Wait...that's exactly what .Net lets you do.

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.net reminds me of a fully developed version of vb 6.0, where everything is wrapped in objects and the developer sees none of the apis; not to mention that windows is completely sealed so that anytime you get an automatic update your computer could go boom or get a trojan installed, or as happend to me when i refused the windows checking software, my printer functions were completely disabled (nothing illegal with my system, just didn't want to be checked by big brother), then i had to wipe the my system reinstall everything and allow all the windows auditing software so my system wasn't crippled.

Sure Windows may be good for a while, but how would anyone know if and when it goes bad, there is no way of telling with closed source is there? not that i am necessarily saying that penguins and daemons are the way to go either (don't mention apples as they are also based on daemons); why isn't there a flavour of linux with birds that can actually fly that has been properly exorcised? ;)

btw don't believe everything you read regarding leaks, poor programming creates leaks, not abstractions; and there is no "one api" there are many that's why the abstraction is required so the higher level developer wouldn't be working with .net objects they would be working with higher than MS level objects. think of it in object terms rather than api terms.

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Originally Posted by zacs7

Whats wrong with the GCC C++ compiler?

And no IBM's compiler priced at $399 doesn't mean its good, Its priced at $399 for the buisness support it provides, and the support IBM offers. Also its got IBM's name on it, + $300 ;)

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is it ibm or intel or a combination of the two??? :)

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

I'm not currently trying anything on the Win32 platform. My Linux compiler generates 64-bit code.

You could see if there's a 64-bit MinGW somewhere. Quickly browsing the MinGW page shows that there are development snapshots available.

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is this what you have cornedbee?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ

Nah, I have enough trouble with dual screens without adding a 3d desktop to the mix.

lol :D

ok then cornedbee what about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrsSl...elated&search=
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01OqyzEyV9M
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKFYA...elated&search=

This has gone really off-topic. Do you have a question left?

not really, i am playing with widgets (non .net windows ie thread topic) at the moment which may be my new ide, i'm intrigued to see what pianorain says though...

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Originally Posted by learning

.net reminds me of a fully developed version of vb 6.0, where everything is wrapped in objects and the developer sees none of the apis; not to mention that windows is completely sealed...snip

btw don't believe everything you read regarding leaks, poor programming creates leaks, not abstractions; and there is no "one api" there are many that's why the abstraction is required so the higher level developer wouldn't be working with .net objects they would be working with higher than MS level objects. think of it in object terms rather than api terms.

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.Net != Windows or Microsoft. Consider Mono, a .Net runtime for a variety of other platforms. .Net attempts exactly what you propose: a common API sitting on top of various APIs provided by other platforms. If you choose to use a system-specific API instead of the abstraction, your code is no longer cross-platform, but .Net does not prevent you from doing so.

Regarding abstractions, I'm more inclined to think that abstractions leak, while poor programming is the result of not recognizing a leaking abstraction. An abstraction inherits all of the points of failure and performance quibbles from the original concept while adding its own. That's why I'd better know a thing or two about C-strings if I'm working with C++'s string class.

i tried dialogblocks, its not a complete ide, just a rad cross platform dialog maker. i didn't investigate widgets completely, however, initially at least it seems that it isn't a complete solution for complete applications yet.

how is .net with performance? does it optimise to chipset level? if i compare an unmanaged c++ app to the same app in .net which app wins? that huge runtime library annoys every part of me, i don't want to install it on my pc ever if i can avoid it.

oh and you pianorain you forgot to discuss this :chuckle: "sure Windows may be good for a while, but how would anyone know if and when it goes bad, there is no way of telling with closed source is there? not that i am necessarily saying that penguins and daemons are the way to go either (don't mention apples as they are also based on daemons); why isn't there a flavour of linux with birds that can actually fly that has been properly exorcised?"

well i've had vista for a day; microsoft is dying isn't it. when i try gentoo, i won't go back will i?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE4HNDSis7A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiLu-67fSy4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LIjndqufis

This has gone way beyond the topic, stay on track or start a new topic... In the RIGHT forum.

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Originally Posted by learning

how is .net with performance? does it optimise to chipset level? if i compare an unmanaged c++ app to the same app in .net which app wins?

oh and you pianorain you forgot to discuss this :chuckle: "sure Windows may be good for a while, but how would anyone know if and when it goes bad, there is no way of telling with closed source is there? not that i am necessarily saying that penguins and daemons are the way to go either (don't mention apples as they are also based on daemons); why isn't there a flavour of linux with birds that can actually fly that has been properly exorcised?"

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The performance of using a runtime varies, but it can never be better than a well-written app compiled for a specific machine. The JIT compiler can't optimize as well as a normal compiler since it's trying to compile very quickly and only looks at bits of the code at a time. 'Well-written' is an important part there, since the automatic memory management of the runtime can increase the performance of a .Net application when compared to a unmanaged app. However, .Net was not designed to be a performance beast. Its selling point is compatibility.

I didn't get into OS's because that's beyond the scope of runtimes. You could have a runtime for any OS.

Perhaps closer to the topic, did you try turning off the CLR support? This should let you generate native apps instead of .Net apps.

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Originally Posted by pianorain

The performance of using a runtime varies, but it can never be better than a well-written app compiled for a specific machine. The JIT compiler can't optimize as well as a normal compiler since it's trying to compile very quickly and only looks at bits of the code at a time.

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That's not necessarily true. A JIT can actually out-perform a native app. A good JIT can actually analyse the code paths at run-time and optimise "on the fly".

i love the tune and the last words "natobie exploit" lol :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqfD4sO3nU

although that isn't a difficult hack, are you sure there aren't even easier ways too?