Help with Medieval Weapons

I need help in building the medieval weapons list for my game. If you have nothing better to do ;) here's the list after which I state what exactly I need:

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One-handed:
daggers: knife, rondel, stiletto, dagger, cinquedea, poniard, dirk, kris, Khukuri
swords: shortsword, cutlass, rapier, sabre, longsword, scimitar, falchion, broadsword, bastard sword, Bokken
axes: hatchet, cleaver, francisca, axe, Ono
hammers: pickaxe, hammer, mallet, warhammer
clubs: baton, club, mace, truncheon, Shillelagh
flails: flail
Two-handed:
spears: javelin, spear, lance, Trident
staves: pole, rod, quarterstaff, shaft
polearms: polearm, halberd, poleaxe, lucern
double axes: double axe, war axe
dual swords: two-handed sword, great sword, giant sword
dual hammers: maul, giant war hammer, Goedendag

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The list shows weapon types followed by actual names to be shown on the game.

Names are listed in no particular order, except for the last (capitalized) which is some weapon taken from world folklore or with historical significance which represents a special weapon of that type. I want to pay homage to some cultures in the form of a special weapon. I'm obviously missing some and there is nothing wrong in having two special weapons, instead of one.

There will be no ranged weapons.

Can you help me grow this list vertically or horizontally?

Special Needs:
I'm need to expand that flail list!
I have two japanese references (Bokken and Ono). I just want one.
I need more cultural references (lists with final capitalized weapon)

Special Notes:
Trident is a reference to Greek culture. There was never such a weapon throughout military history. So don't think I'm missing a cultural reference on the spears list.

Flails are neat... here's an idea: include other types of flails apart from the spiked ball weapons with which you are familiar. Wiki mentions that there are types of flails originating from India... what do those look like I wonder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansetsukon

What, no claymore? I'll have your head on a stick for that, laddie!

The dirk was used in one hand with a targe in the other; I believe the idea was to either sweep aside the enemy's weapon with the targe and rip him a new one with the dirk or just break his face/arm with the targe itself.

Good lord, man - no lightsabre? :eek:

Thanks Citizen!

Yeah. I saw that wiki page. I was hoping to find the name of other types of flail. I know that in medieval times there were at least two more; a three-ball flail and a weird flail similar to a cat-o-nine-tails. I just can't find their names anywhere.

If any of you guys know of any special flail that is part of your history or culture, do let me know please.

But I'm going to add morning star to the flail list. I didn't yet because I was really doubtful I should. The real morning star, as I know it, was in fact the mace. Not the flail. But the flail list is very poor already.

The Sansetsukon is double-handed. I'll however consider the nunchaku for the special weapon, if we can't find anything better before the end :)

> What, no claymore? I'll have your head on a stick for that, laddie!

Gasp! :eek:
Added!

And the lightsabre... hmm... how should I put this... ;)

EDIT: About the targe... I'll be doing a separate post sometime later with the armor. I will concentrate on the weapon generator for a while.

Found one! The bishop; A very scary flail (they all were!). It was one of the flanged mace head flail types http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-humour/bishops%2005.htm

The problem with shopping sites is that they don't use the actual names these weapons had. But they got it right for the Bishop.

The current list is:

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One-handed:
daggers: knife, rondel, stiletto, dagger, cinquedea, poniard, dirk, kris, Khukuri
swords: shortsword, cutlass, rapier, sabre, longsword, scimitar, falchion, broadsword, bastard sword, Bokken
axes: hatchet, cleaver, francisca, axe, Ono
hammers: pickaxe, hammer, mallet, warhammer
clubs: baton, club, mace, truncheon, Shillelagh
flails: flail, morning star, bishop
Two-handed:
spears: javelin, spear, lance, Trident
staffs: pole, rod, quarterstaff, shaft
polearms: polearm, halberd, poleaxe, lucern
double axes: double axe, war axe
dual swords: two-handed sword, great sword, giant sword, claymore
dual hammers: maul, giant war hammer, Goedendag

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For clubs, you could add the tonfa. It's similar to the modern-day represenation of a policeman's nightstick. For daggers, you could add the balisong, or what on the street is called a "butterfly knife". Another dagger-type weapon you could use is the main-gauche.

I don't believe tridents were ever used in any country's military. They're used primarily for fishing.

If you need a more Asian flair, you could include the old standards of katana and wakizashi. Then, you've got the good old sai. There's also the sword of the "renegades", to, used by certain ninja clans.

Want to get a bit gruesome? Try the cestus or the drusus. For a more Egyptian flair, nothing beats the khopesh.

The morningstar really doesn't belong with the flails. Flails in and of themselves are rather unique weapons. You might consider the scourge to be closer to the flail than the morningstar. Keep in mind though that there are two major kinds of flails, one intended for hand-to-hand combat and one intended for use on horseback. This same difference also exists for maces. The principal defining factor of a flail is its implementation...some have long chains, some only a couple of segments, some have spikes, some don't, some have more than one offensive striker, etc.

I could give you an exhaustive list of polearms if you'd like...I know of over 15 of them. "Polearm" itself isn't a weapon but a classification of a specific type of two-handed staff-based weapon.

I don't have any links for any of these weapons, as what I know is material from various history books, but I'm sure wikipedia would have plenty of information.

Lots of material Nodtveidt. Thanks!

Here's what I grabbed from you:
- The Khopesh, no doubt! And made as a special weapon.
- Moved the morningstar to the clubs category. I agree. I was not happy having it there.
- Removed polearm from the names list.

I'm avoiding repetitive references to a particular culture. So, the Ono, for its absolute rarity, makes the only japanese reference.

I added a few ones meanwhile that I have been researching. the tomahawk as a special weapon, the lochaber also as a special weapon (english were terrified of it), changed the lucern to a special weapon too (wasn't aware of its origins before I read about it) and added the Hofi hammer as a special homage to one of the last power hammering blacksmiths in the world. And also remembered of the scary flamberge.

So here is the list as it is now:

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One-handed:
daggers: knife, rondel, stiletto, dagger, cinquedea, poniard, dirk, kris, Khukuri (Nepali)
swords: shortsword, cutlass, rapier, sabre, longsword, scimitar, falchion, broadsword, bastard sword, Khopesh (Egyptian)
axes: hatchet, cleaver, francisca, axe, Ono (Japan), Tomahawk (Native American)
hammers: pickaxe, hammer, mallet, warhammer, Hofi (Uri Hofi)
clubs: baton, club, mace, truncheon, morningstar, Shillelagh (Irish)
flails: flail, bishop
Two-handed:
spears: javelin, spear, lance, Trident (Greek)
staves: pole, rod, quarterstaff, shaft
polearms: halberd, poleaxe, Lucern (Swiss), Lochaber (Scot)
double axes: double axe, war axe
dual swords: two-handed sword, great sword, giant sword, claymore, Flamberge (German)
dual hammers: maul, giant war hammer, Goedendag (Dutch)

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And yes. I would appreciate a couple more polearms ;)

Any use?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Medieval_weapons

Immensely. Thanks Dave!

That wikipedia category has a lot of good stuff in it. It misses quite a few polearms though...of particular note is the fauchard, derived from the agricultural sickle, and its many modifications, such as the fauchard-fork and the hook-fauchard. Also, several types of polearms tended to overlap in terms of "features"...the glaive and the guisarme often overlapped with other polearms, creating weapons such as the glaive-guisarme, the guisarme-voulge, and the bill-guisarme. For reference, the voulge is also known as the Lochaber axe, which I noticed you have in your list already. Need another axe? There's always the bardiche, otherwise called the berdysh, depending on where it was spoken about. Of course, there's always the good old standby, the awl pike or Moorish pike, which is probably the longest infantry spear in history. The bec de corbin could be built with either a hammer or an axe head, depending on the application. I find it strange that the list on wikipedia did not include the partisan, one of the most famous polearms in history, along with the ranseur, which is something of the partisan's redheaded stepchild. :D

Oh, I should mention one major factoid about polearms though...unless you're making a medeival war game, polearms aren't really weapons to be used by individuals. They are weapons to be used in groups, either as a polearm wall (such as a pike wall) or a coordinated pair (sword & shield front unit with polearm unit attacking over front unit's shoulder was a common technique, the halberd was perfect for this). Also, those who wielded polearms also tended to carry a sidearm, usually a short sword of some kind.

Btw...the "cat-o-nine-tails" is the scourge, which I mentioned earlier.

>> Khukuri

I think it should be "kukri". CMIIW.

BTW, you should also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_weapons

There's a pike called sarissa

There's a sword called katzbalger.

There's a two handed katana called dai-katana.

Also, why didn't you add weapons that added the damage of an unarmed punch? E.g: Knuckles, gauntlets, claws, katar, etc.

What about staves or quarterstaves? Are they polearm or clubs?

I recommended the cestus as a punching weapon. Claws aren't really punching weapons per se unless they're fitted over the proximal phalanges or even the metacarpal-phalangeal joints, claw-based weapons are often either supplemental to other weapons or, in the case of standalone, strapped across the metacarpals with the claws extending from the top of the hand and are used primarily for slashing. Katar is a good one though, as it would technically be a "punching" weapon. Quite a few MMORPGs utilize katars.

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Originally Posted by Nodtveidt

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You damn near made me try to find my AD&D books.

An external link I found on the pole arms page:
http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Fun/polearms.html
But I believe you've mentioned most of them already.

Has excalaber been mentioned? One of the most famous medievil swords around

I thought hard on Excalibur... and a couple more famous swords like Gram and Caladbolg. The problem is that I thought better of adding myth and non existent weapons. They will make part of the Uniques instead (a separate list of weapons akin to DIablo II system). So I even removed non existing references like the Hori, or rare ones like the Ono.

Very close combat weapons like the cestus, medieval knuckles, and katars are not going to make it. The combat system will have armor types reducing damage according to weapon type. Some natural armor types like scales, carapaces, and hides on monsters will also be factored in. These small weapons would have to have high damage levels, equivalent at least to daggers in order to be effective. I found that would place them on the same category as daggers which wouldn't be too correct. Besides with well over 60 different weapons now, variety is not a problem :)

As for "kukri" or "Khukuri", whenever I can I will always use the original name and not the english bastardized versions :D

Here's the current list with some modifications from all the recent comments. This is probably coming close to the final list:

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One-handed:
daggers: knife, rondel, stiletto, dagger, cinquedea, poniard, dirk, kris, Khukuri
swords: shortsword, cutlass, rapier, sabre, saif, longsword, scimitar, falchion, broadsword, bastard sword, Katana, Spatha, Khopesh
axes: hatchet, cleaver, francisca, axe, Dane
hammers: hammer, mallet, Warhammer
clubs: baton, club, mace, truncheon, morning star, Shillelagh
flails: flail, Bishop, Holy Water Sprinkler
Two-handed:
spears: javelin, spear, assegai, sarissa, lance, Trident
staves: quarterstaff, pole, rod, Shaft
polearms: halberd, poleaxe, bardiche, bill, glaive, Lucern, Lochaber
double axes: double axe, war axe, Doloire
dual swords: two-handed sword, great sword, giant sword, Claymore, Flamberge
dual hammers: maul, sledge, Giant War Hammer, Goedendag

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Are you going to have a "final fantasy" style battle system? Like player hits enemy, then enemy hits player, all done onthe famous 'hit and miss' system? Or have you devised your own battle function?

I thought the Morning Star was a flail not a club. Hmm, after some research it looks like the flail like version isn't supposed to be called a morning star.

I also wouldn't call a cleaver an axe. I'm not sure I'd call a cleaver a weapon at all. Might as well throw Butcher Knife and Spatula in there. :)

Two things I'd definitely add is scythe, machete, and sai, if they weren't already turned down. They might not have been around by medieval times, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by swgh

Are you going to have a "final fantasy" style battle system? Like player hits enemy, then enemy hits player, all done onthe famous 'hit and miss' system? Or have you devised your own battle function?

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Nah. I'm going to have a proprietary, highly-copyrighted, secret battle system ;)
But seriously, it is a slightly complex system. Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence and Smartness attributes all factor in for to-hit or damage results. Depends. Weapon used versus armor also does. Other variables are enemy size, luck, wounds (you are less effective as you take wounds)... etc... The actual details I don't have yet.

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Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom

I thought the Morning Star was a flail not a club.

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Yeah. It's one of those confusing things. The morningstar is a mace made of an handle with a spiked ball at the top. The morning star (note the space) is a flail with a spiked ball at the end of the chain. The problem is that this distinction is not historically correct. Apparently both weapons were called morning star.

I've been reading a lot on flails since I got curious about the lack of info. These weapons had a short history in medieval europe. They were scary, but very dangerous also to their wielder. To be effective in melee, the arm needed to be constantly moving which would quickly tire anyone. Furthermore, if rotated too fast or too slow, you would loose control of the implement at the end of the chain... sometimes with fatal consequences to your own head, torso or legs.

As such, flails were only weapons to instill terror during the initial stages of battle or to keep an enemy at bay momentarily. As soon as one blow landed or the initial moment passed, they were immediately discarded (tossed to the ground or released towards the enemy) and other weapons were used.

Personally, I think a flail to the head is all it's going to take to put a guy down, helmet or not. So one hit is all a good flail user needs. :)

In any event, a trusty m249 SAW and a bunch of rounds would wipe out a medieval army in a heart beat... so you should make that a secret weapon. :) Seriously, it's always been a dream of mine to walk into one of those medieval times wars with an automatic machine gun in my hands.

It won't happen :p

Butterfly Swords!!!

And what about 1.5 - weapon that can be used both styles?

And where is katana - the only choice of the true munchkin? ;)

> And where is katana
Mario has placed it correctly in the single-handed sword category.

Actually, I'd re-evaluate the sword category carefully. Can you really wield a broadsword or longsword with one hand? I've never seen it demonstrated that way before.

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Originally Posted by citizen

Can you really wield a broadsword or longsword with one hand? I've never seen it demonstrated that way before.

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If we look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore
Broadsword is a family, one of the members is Claymore which has two versions - two handed and called broadsword:

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Basket-hilted claymore
The second, later, sword to be designated "claymore" was a much shorter, one-handed, basket-hilted broadsword popular with Scottish troops and some English officers from the 18th century onwards, even seeing combat on the beaches of Normandy during World War II[citation needed]. The basket was designed to protect the hand in combat. The Scottish basket-hilt sword is often distinguished from others by the velvet liner inside the basket (often in red), and also sometimes by additional decorative tassels on the hilt or pommel. This latter form of "claymore" (unrelated to the first) can be seen in some forms of highland traditional dance, as well as on the dress uniforms of British Army regiments drawn from the region. A claymore was carried in World War II by Lt. Col. Jack Churchill DSO, MC & BAR.

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As we see the second one is one-handed...

In games longsword traditionally is also put in the one-hand category, possible to use together with shield. Have no idea if there is correct historical analogy for that

Excellent points.

> Can you really wield a broadsword or longsword with one hand?

I don't think there is an agreement on the particular issue of swords. To add to the confusion, certain types of weapons that were designed to be used dual-handed were commonly used single-handedly by strong men (which made a big part of the sword wielders of any medieval army), making these extremely dangerous weapons. This is especially true of the longsword and broadsword.

> Broadsword is a family, one of the members is Claymore which has two versions - two handed and called broadsword:

However I completely digress from that Wikipedia article on the Scots Claymore. The basket-hilted broadsword was an unpopular, localized weapon that didn't spread past Scotland. And It's the first time I hear it being called claymore. The long Claymore, which is also attributed to the Scots, was much more popular. And this weapon had indeed to be used with both hands even by strong warriors. Not so much for its weight, which was not that much more than a normal longsword, but because the blade was very flexible and demanded more control for balance. Claymores were longer, more flexible versions of the longsword. Their relation to broadswords is completely new to me and the first time I hear of it.

> And what about 1.5 - weapon that can be used both styles?

I'm really divided on that one. It will force me to change my current classes. But I have already considered that I should allow it. I'm just first need to evaluate how much of the current work needs to be changed. That thought only occurred to me much later during the development phase.

> Butterfly Swords!!!

Yup. It's a possibility. I like the imagery of dual-wielding daggers. It was certainly not popular among the medieval (or chinese) military. But it was a common in street fights and martial arts.

Those butterflies, the Sai, and maybe a few others could be added to a new double-handed daggers category, although I suspect oriental influence will be much bigger here.

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Their relation to broadswords is completely new to me and the first time I hear of it.

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Argh! I thought that this can be misunderstood in my post. Did not mean that.

Only wanted to say that there are two types of Claymors
two handed and one-handed.
Only the second one is a member of broadswords family...

Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

hammers: hammer, mallet, Warhammer

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Maybe add Mjolnir to the list? I'm just surprised you haven't complained about the blandness.

Maybe you could add a feature so that initially a broad sword requires two hands, but once the player becomes strong enough he can use it with one hand, freeing the other hand for another item.

On the topic of tridents: Although they were not used to my knowledge by any formal army, they WERE used in fighting. The Roman Gladiators used them quite often (combined with a net).

> Only the second one is a member of broadswords family...

Ah! Gotcha.

> Maybe add Mjolnir to the list? I'm just surprised you haven't complained about the blandness.

How could I forget about the Mjolnir. Hard to not be a fan of norse mythology :)
But it will be added to the list of Uniques.

> they WERE used in fighting. The Roman Gladiators used them quite often (combined with a net).

Good point. However, did you know that gladiators hated them? It was all that easy to the opponent to grab hold of the trident and the trusting power to force three spikes to bury past leather armor was too great. All it took was for one spike to be caught on a metal piece (like a rivet for instance), for the other spikes to not bury in.

Okies. And the armor list. If you detect anything wrong let me know. I'm most interested in new shield types.

Code:

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    Head: cap, coif, casque, basinet, helm, sallet, helmet, Great Helm
    Neck: choker, aventail, Gorget
    Arms: bracers, vambraces, spaulders, Besegews
    Hands: cestus, gloves, mitts, gauntlets, Gadlings
    Back: cloak, cape, shawl, Mantle
    Body: jacket, leather armor, tabard, studded armor, gambeson, brigandine, mail shirt,
          hauberk, breastplate, cuirass, scale mail, splint armor, full plate, Gothic Armor,
          White Armor
    Waist: sash, baldric, belt, Girdle
    Legs: leggings, greaves, Chausses
    Feet: sandals, leather shoes, boots, Sabatons
    Shields: buckler, targe, rondache, shield, kite shield, pavise, Crest Shield

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[FO2]Power Armour[/FO2]

This was probably asked before (I skimmed the three pages), but will your game have the functionality for a weapon to be used either one handed and two handed. I think there were some weapons which one could use in both two handed and one handed if you were buff enough.

Do I have to point a gun at Hobbes to make you read the past posts on this thread, Calvin?

Sorry, Mario. Here's a good one - Boots of escapement!

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I will call down a mighty reckoning on you!

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rofl! you crack me up!

For the armor:

Body: hide armor, jerkin

Back: cowl, robe

Shield: tower shield

I don't quite sure about the robe. It can be put above the armor to conceal it. Yet, it can be used as a clothing also e.g. a monk's robe.

Also, were there any jacket in medieval?

For the weapon you've forgotten one: gladius, a single handed sword.

PS: BTW, I've found out that twomers idea of adding Fallout's armouries to the list is kind of interesting. I wonder how a Fullplated warrior use Pancor Jackhammer as a weapon. Or a Claymore wielding knight wore a Power armor. :D :D :D

> Body: hide armor, jerkin

Jerkin! Thanks! :)

As for the hide armor, these is nothing more than a leather armor. Popular games try to make a distinction based probably on AD&D 2nd Edition. But it was always a mistake. Hide Armor are simply leather armors with another name.

> Shield: tower shield

Same. AD&D influence. There was never a tower shield. They were called instead Pavise.

> Also, were there any jacket in medieval?

Well, I'm sure there were, but probably not as a piece of armor, you are right :) My English betrayed me and instead of Jacket, it was Jerkin that I should have added as you first suggested. Replaced now.

> Gladius

Eek! :o
Added, replacing Spartha.

>>As for the hide armor, these is nothing more than a leather armor. Popular games try to make a distinction based probably on AD&D 2nd Edition. But it was always a mistake. Hide Armor are simply leather armors with another name.

Well now, that's a new information for me. I thought they were different.

More on the shield:
heater shield, heraldic shield, bouche, aegis (although this one would fit as a unique)

Armor: Ringmail, gambeson

Arms: pauldron

Hide armor and leather armor ARE different. The difference is that hide armor is constructed of very thick skin or several layers of leather.

The gladius is a good suggestion. I had suggested the drusus, which is a refined, higher-quality gladius.

Mail shirt? I'm assuming you mean a form of chainmail on that one. Back then, it was simply known as "mail" to most soldiers.

The broadsword is a weapon in and of itself. It was, if memory serves, the predacessor to the longsword. Both weapons require (and only have hilt space for) one hand. What you want in terms of a weapon that can be wielded with one OR two hands is the bastard sword, or certain greatswords (such as the claymore). The katana also fits (pun intended).

For armors, it's hard to list splint without listing banded. They're roughly the same, except banded works better. Also, historians still debade whether splint ever even existed, as there is no real history behid it, and no proper depictions of any warriors or soldiers ever using it.

> Hide armor and leather armor ARE different. The difference is that hide armor is constructed of very thick skin or several layers of leather.

Really. Hide armor is a myth. It's just a synonym for leather or armor made of skin of animals. Games made it popular probably to give an extra form of leather armor. But any kind of leather armor was simply called leather armor. Some leather armors were double and triple layered, some were padded, some were riveted. All were called leather armor.

> Mail shirt? I'm assuming you mean a form of chainmail on that one.

Nope. Mail Shirt. Smaller than an hauberk that protected just the torso and upper arms, instead of the hauberk's protection that included lower arms and legs down to the knee.

> For armors, it's hard to list splint without listing banded. They're roughly the same, except banded works better. Also, historians still debade whether splint ever even existed, as there is no real history behid it, and no proper depictions of any warriors or soldiers ever using it.

Yup. Removed. Splint was a piece of armor used in the arms during the 15th and 16th centuries.

And thanks for the banded! Forgot that one. Added. It was mostly used in China, not in Europe. But it was a very good armor.

How about the Invisibility Cloak? :)

For the head: what about mask or hat? BTW, what's the diferrence of helm and helmet?

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Originally Posted by g4j31a5

what's the diferrence of helm and helmet?

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From an armorer's point of view, there is no difference; the words are interchangeable. "Helm" is merely a short form of "helmet". In the modern age, "helm" usually refers to an armored helmet, whereas "helmet" could refer to any kind of headpiece, such as an engineer's helmet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligae

> what about mask or hat? BTW, what's the diferrence of helm and helmet?

A mask would be ok. I could add it, although I'm not sure if oriental masks (the only I know of being used in military affairs) were used as protection or simply as fear-factor.

The helm and helmet are not different, at least from what I know. The two words are so common though that I decided to add them both so you can find a Knight's Helmet of Vision and a Broken Helm of the Giants.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligae

Excellent! Thanks. My footwear list was too short :)

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Originally Posted by Nodtveidt

In the modern age, "helm" usually refers to an armored helmet, whereas "helmet" could refer to any kind of headpiece, such as an engineer's helmet.

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That's it, when I'm out in the field the next couple days, I will not be wearing a hardhat, I will be wearing a Helm of Engineering +5

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligae

Excellent! Thanks. My footwear list was too short :)

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Boots of Cesar: +3 Insanity, +1 gopher, +3 times with sister.

A question for Mario, what's in the armory so far?