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would it be wrong to charge a college student money
to do there programming for them, if that what they want?
i understand that in the long run it will be hurting them, unless
they were just taking the class for some purpose other
then for what they are wanting to major in.
i know alot of you around here joke about doing there work for
like 20 bucks and hour and what not, but would you actually
do it? and if you think that its ok, would they get mad if
i offered to do some in say my signature?
Depends on how much, if its not enough, yes its wrong. Just make sure you dont tell them your name, and wear a terrorist mask when you meet them, so if they get caught you dont go down with them.
EDIT:
MadCow, this is outside the boards, i believe those rules apply only to the boards
My Java professor said that he has actually caught students offering money for their assignments on forums and what not. He said he offered to do the assignments, got the money, then failed the students.
Writing programs for money isn't illegal, what someone does with that is their business.
If you sell guns (legally), and you sell someone a gun, and they kill somoene, is it your fault?
You're an idiot if you don't know this is wrong. I'm not saying don't do it, just don't be naive enough to convince yourself you aren't breaking rules.
>> If you sell guns (legally), and you sell someone a gun, and they kill somoene, is it your fault?
I really hate you for this comment. It's perfect bait material, but there's so many other factors to take into account that there's no way to really argue that statement as it stands.
Ass.
i dont think its that black or white, i wouldnt post on it
if was that easy.
from the person wanting there homework done it may be
wrong, but what make it wrong from the coder point of view.
> If you sell guns (legally), and you sell someone a gun, and they kill somoene, is it your fault?
Fortunately that's not what's being discussed here.
Morals is something that the individual has to decide for themselves.
Given the current state of the IT industry then the fewer people who can actually code the better pay for those of us who can...(jk)
>>>> If you sell guns (legally), and you sell someone a gun, and they kill somoene, is it your fault?
If you know they intend to use it to kill someone and you sell it to them anyway, then yes, it is wrong.
LOL omg that is such a perfect setup, oh man that professor is a genius!Quote:
Originally Posted by B0bDole
That fact that you'd even consider it doesn't say much about your personality. It's clearly wrong to help someone cheat. It would be blatent plagerism and you'd be assisting it (doesn't matter that your the original author, homework must be the original work of the student).
PS: If you do it, I really hope you get kicked out of school... and hopefully you already have a degree that they can strip from you.... and yes, they can do that :p
first of all im not in school( i doubt they will take my diploma ), so
it doesnt matter to me what happens to the student, they are of
no relation to me in any sort, just $$$, and if they think its worth
it i still cant see anything wrong with it doing it. it doesnt hurt
anyone but the person who choose to take that path.
the only reason i posted on it is because i dont want to
offer it in my comment if the majority has a problem
with it.
P.S.
paying someone to do your homework, is like smoking, its
bad for you, not the person who just made money off you.
i guess until you die, but i guess that not a side affect of
cheating on school assignments.
somethings burning.... I CAN SMELLL IT!!
ILoveVectors -- I'd have to say that it's Ok if you cheat for someone else. It may not be great for the person you're doing it for, but you'll have stronger bonds with that person and plus you'll be getting some good programming experience, as if you were in that programming class! lol :] Yall just have to look at the bright side. Take diploma this, unethical that, jeez.
> but you'll have stronger bonds with that person
hahahaha
"Cheating is about FRIENDSHIP!"
Yes, it would. And yes, you you will profit from it taking no risks, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveVectors
You have to take risks in life ILoveVectors! Don't listen to these people, they're safe, they're in a comfort zone! I mean if someone gave me a gun and would pay me $100 to kill someone, whadareya gonna do!? You go on a killing spree, that's what I say! It's not about what's right and wrong, it's about the money, the risks, and how many cool stories you can tell your grand children!
Keep in mind that college classes are often curved. By helping someone incompetent, you're not just hurting their future (although that's potentially a dubious claim anyway), you could be making the class more difficult for other people. Obviously this would have to be a death by 1000 cuts, but you'd still be contributing to it. That is, assuming you wrote a good program. I guess you're not under any real obligation to do that.
Ho hum, I used to have no qualms posting solutions to ppl's homework here. Until I realised that instead of actually being helpful, I was being exactly the opposite.
First, consider the scenario. Your pal asks you to do an assignment for him/her. And so you do, but unfortunately you don't have the time to explain it to him/her. So anyway, time goes by and he/her gets the assignment marked. However, marking involves a one-to-one assessment between student and teacher.
Clearly, it won't take long to for the teacher to realise the student's work is not their own, resulting in your pal getting into extremely hot water. A problem if you have any morals?!
Second, let's assume you decide to explain your code to your pal. So that when marking time comes he/her is (just) about able to convince his teacher that it is their own work. Ok so everything is sweet right? Well no not exactly. What happens when your pal then decides to go and get a job? Where will you be then?
Third, C and C++ is so versatile. What I mean by that is that there are so many ways to do one thing. For example, there are a whole bunch of ways to read data from a file. Now your pal may be taught this one way to read data from a file. However, you, on the other hand was taught another. But when you do the homework for him you use your way. This will probably confuse your pal and will probably be easily spotted by his teacher.
IMHO, I don't think you are looking at the big picture here.
Regardless of whether you know that student or not it is still wrong. This is fact, no matter how you might try to convince yourself otherwise.
If you want to really make yourself useful, consider tutoring him/her. This takes a helluva lot more time and the rewards only come after a lot of hard work and many months down the line.
On the other hand this might not be a possibility if you don't know them, which in that case you should abandon your original idea altogether.
If all that isn't enought to convince you that what you are doing is wrong then perhaps you should re-evaluate your ethics.
:confused:
Well, I once sat in an exam hall that had a notice in the front exhorting students to engage in teamwork....Quote:
"Cheating is about FRIENDSHIP!"
I daresay some students interpreted the concept of teamwork somewhat differently from the author of that notice.
you know what's fun? letting that .............. next to you cheat off you the entire semester, and watching him fail miserably during all his tests and have to take the course again :D
Ok, but let's take this from another standpoint. You are a freelance programmer looking to do some small projects for quick cash. You don't know the circumstances of the project and you're too dumb to realize it's a school project. You get approached from the web anonymously with a cash offer to do a quick programming job. Is it morally wrong to take the job then? (I'm not saying I've done this, but consider the scenario).
I dont think so, since you are not conspiring with the student to cheat the teacher (or to cheat the student himself/herself, for that matter).Quote:
You don't know the circumstances of the project and you're too dumb to realize it's a school project. You get approached from the web anonymously with a cash offer to do a quick programming job. Is it morally wrong to take the job then? (I'm not saying I've done this, but consider the scenario).
ILoveVectors, I took your side in this exact argument just a few months ago. However, it really is indefensible. Read the following thread (the issue with gun manufacturers is brought up as well). I think joshdick makes a pretty good argument that it is unethical to do someone else's homework.
>> "Cheating is about FRIENDSHIP!"
I think that blew my funny fuse.
No. The person offering the job could easily say the offer is for something else and there's no real way to verify it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ober
Prof. Hamza-Lup ??Quote:
Originally Posted by B0bDole
Quote:
Originally Posted by webmaster
See this right here is what i am talking about, how am i hurting
there furture, its there choice to pay someone, i wouldnt
be forcing them to do anything, i wouldnt even be trying to
talk people into it, id just have the offer avalible, and contact me
if interested.
ok i finally got through my think head i understand why,
it shouldnt be done. thanks for your posts. no other are
required.
If you're specifically targeting students, that is wrong IMO. You are undermining the principles of education and in the end you're really screwing them over (knowingly).Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveVectors
I don't see anything wrong with it. So long as the people you're doing the work for are old enough to know they're cheating, you'll have done nothing wrong in my books.
Students must take responsibility for themselves and the decisions that they make. If people want to lie and cheat their way into A grades, then go for it. Sure, it can be annoying when you're the guy who has actually studied hard while the know-nothing jerk at the back paid $20 for some kid to do his homework. But remember: "The race is long, but in the end, it's only with yourself."
If someone asked me to and offered good money, especially if I was a struggling student myself, I'd take it. And I wouldn't feel bad. You're making a profit while someone else is cheating themselves. This is no different to investing money in a company while there are mass layoffs to make money. Some people are losing their jobs while you're getting rich. Should you feel guilty? No, I don't think so.
The luxuries we in the western world are so accustomed to are only avaliable because people in developing countries go without, that's the way it's always been. Should we feel guilty every time we sit on our $7000 leather couch? I don't think we should, although I sometimes do. But only because those people have no choice for their circumstances. The morons you're helping by doing their programming for them have made a concious decision to cheat, and theres nothing wrong with you profiting from it.
I think this is a different scenario. Someones paid him $20 to write some little program as an answer to an assignment. If that person gets caught and gets in trouble, it's certainly not his fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by treenef
Perhaps if they were your friend, you might feel guilty, but you shouldn't have to. A financial transaction has taken place - he agreed to give you cash, you gave him a program. If you didn't agree to explain it to him (which I would never do for other reasons) then you have no reason to feel guilty when he gets in trouble.
Try reading the thread I posted above, and then explain how you don't see a problem with it. This issue has already been discussed.
Yep, well said. I'm in college and have got offers to do people's homework numerous times. The only reason I didn't was because I was in the same class, and believe it or not, it was an upper level class (cs 43xx, software engineering). These people passed anyways (not by much).Quote:
Originally Posted by stovellp
However, even if was a different class, I would still have to think about it. If these slugs got caught, there is no doubt in my mind that they would take me down with them. If it was someone I knew and they promised to say they got it off the internet if they got caught, it's a done deal for me. Hand over the cash, you'll have your wussy ass assignment in an hour =)
edit: fixed a nasty sentence that made my eyes hurt.
You do realize you just said that you'd trust a person wanting to commit an unethical act on a promise. What's to say that they wouldn't be unethical again?Quote:
Originally Posted by spoon_
True, which is the whole problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by pianorain
There are some people I know that would want their homework done for them who wouldn't rat me out if they got caught. I hope. :rolleyes:
You do understand that it's plagerism unless they explicitly say that you wrote the assignment (which they won't, because they would fail as homework is supposed to be their own work)Quote:
Originally Posted by spoon_
A stupid move like that could get you (and them) kicked out of school and could tarnish your reputation for life. Do you think anyone will want to hire the guy that couldnt get his degree because he got kicked out of school for cheating? And grad schools would laugh at you if you applied with something like that on your record. People don't care if you were the one doing the writing or the copying, your still doing something wrong either way.
I don't like to help people fake things.
And, I don't like to screw over the people who are actually working (i.e. the people who earn at least some respect from me).
Hence, I refuse to help someone cheat. But then again, that's just my way of thinking.
And so must those who help them cheat.Quote:
Students must take responsibility for themselves and the decisions that they make.
basically what everyone here is saying, it seems,
is that students are to dumb to make decision for themselves
so if you help them with the decision they make, your dumb
to.
> You do understand that it's plagerism unless they explicitly say that you wrote the assignment
Usually plagiarism is done without the author's consent or knowledge.
>>Usually plagiarism is done without the author's consent or knowledge.
Unfortunately thats not the case. Anytime you copy something without referencing it it is plagerism (even if you wrote the original!). For example, if you write an essay for some class and then later on submit the same essay in a different class, your're actaully plagerising yourself! I've had profs warn against this...
That's retarded.
edit: Then again, so is using yourself as a source.
agreed, and .. agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Govtcheez
I remember hearing about John Fogerty (from CCR) getting sued for plagiarising himself on one of his solo albums... some other guy had the rights to the CCR song even though Fogerty wrote it.
Yeah, the record company sued Fogarty for having the same voice/style as the lead singer of CCR, which was.... um... him.
I love the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Govtcheez
Careful GC, you might get arrested for impersonating yourself.
I think it isnt plagiarism here - more like dishonesty by submitting previous work when new work was expected.Quote:
Anytime you copy something without referencing it it is plagerism (even if you wrote the original!). For example, if you write an essay for some class and then later on submit the same essay in a different class, your're actaully plagerising yourself!
I think we should just forget homework, problem solved
If someone came and asked you to write a program that they're supposed to write for work (assuming it was that easy) would it be so bad?
Who cares about morals anyways?
I knew a guy that needed to re-write thousands of lines of code to make it more efficient for his company. I helped him out with some sections, for free. Even if I had asked for money, I'd say it would've been okay. I don't think businesses have strict regulations as to where their work comes from, as long as it's going to help the business.Quote:
If someone came and asked you to write a program that they're supposed to write for work (assuming it was that easy) would it be so bad?
BUT!
As mentioned in this thread and the link on the first page, all schools (no matter the level) have rules against turning in somebody elses work as your own. John McBob isn't going to be helped in any way by you doing their programs in the long run, should they decide to stick with programming. John McBob didn't sign up for CP101 just so YOU could get more practice in programming. And, if someone earns a diploma, isn't the key that they do it themselves? I sure wouldn't want my doctor to be a doctor only because he paid $100 for the final exam answers, why would I want a should-be-dropout coding my operating system?
So, even for just the fact that there are strict rules, explicitly stated, then yeah, it's wrong and unethical.
But, ethics isn't always the right path to choose. If someone offers me $100 to code Hello World, hell yeah I'm taking it. If a good friend of mine's gonna fail an assignment cause they can't get their heads around the concepts, of course I'll write something for them. With that though (and yeah, I know some people will say I'm just covering here and I really wouldn't...) but I'll go through the code with them, in person, until I'm really convinced they understand. I don't know about your schools, but at my university, the profs are retards. They throw out a few key words in lectures and expect the students to do the rest, and from a point of view of myself, who's been programming for a long time now, it seems completely unreasonable. So perhaps ethics does still play a role in this situation.
And besides, I'd rather have $20 than not have $20 bucks. If you stay ethical your whole life, well...enjoy eating the table scraps from all your superiors. Not to mention you won't be any fun at all...and boring. Is it ethical to knock over mailboxes at 3 in the morning after you've had too much to drink? Maybe not. But man, it's fun.
Very dubious claim. (On both accounts.)Quote:
If you stay ethical your whole life, well...enjoy eating the table scraps from all your superiors. Not to mention you won't be any fun at all...and boring. Is it ethical to knock over mailboxes at 3 in the morning after you've had too much to drink? Maybe not. But man, it's fun.
I don't claim to be incorruptible, but I do find ways to have fun without intentionally destroying other people's property.
...yeah...perhaps slightly exaggerated there...I was just caught up in the moment :)Quote:
Very dubious claim. (On both accounts.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleid-0
I think we're on the same level Epo! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Epo
Kleid-0... You may wish to know that your conclusions do not logically follow from anything.
Perhaps you've had a bit too much UT on the brain lately?
Bah...why is that dishonest? You've already done the work once. Why do it again? When you write logical proofs, you aren't called to prove every thereom again. One of the focuses of OOP is reusability of code. How is writing a paper any different?Quote:
Originally Posted by laserlight
Would you be having fun replacing your mailbox some morning after a drunk guy smashed it off? I can think of things that would be more fun than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Epo
It more has to deal with the terms of the class/assignment (whatever it may be for). If there is no restriction against reusing what you've previously written, then there is no problem. It's when there is a restriction against this that it is dishonest, and, from my experience, at least, this restriction is usually implied, and the student should use his common sense (i.e. sure, refering back to previously proved theorems is fine, but generally, in something like, say, a creative writing class, the point is more the writing process).Quote:
Originally Posted by pianorain
It is dishonest because it is against the rules - new work was expected, and the student blatantly attempts to submit existing work, though it be his own.Quote:
Bah...why is that dishonest?
In both cases I think it is different - the problem lies precisely in that the student is not doing anything new (when he was supposed to do something new). It isnt writing a proof using existing theorems, it is publishing the theorems again (when a new result was expected to be published). It isnt extending a class, it is taking the class verbatim and using it (when a complete re-write was expected).Quote:
When you write logical proofs, you aren't called to prove every thereom again. One of the focuses of OOP is reusability of code. How is writing a paper any different?
No. Just because something is against the rules doesn't make it immoral.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserlight
If the point of the assignment is to practice writing a paper (such as in a research methods or creative writing class), then I agree. In that case, the end result is not the focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserlight
However, if the professor is more interested in the paper than the process, then why do the work again? Having a previously written paper that has already been marked over by a professor is a great tool for improvement. Since the paper will most likely be for a different class, the paper will need to be modified anyway to fit the requirements of that particular assignment.
I'm glad I didn't have any professors with that sort of inane requirement. If it is a requirement for you, then I agree that it would be immoral to decieve the professor. However, I don't think that the general act of submitting work previously done by yourself is immoral.
Well, there is some judgment on your part.
If it is expected that you submit something newly written (whether or not the writing process is the point), then you are being dishonest by submitting something you had already written. In most scenarios where you are expected to write something new, however, I find it unlikely that it would be explicitly stated.
Though, I think I am just paraphrasing what you said.
Cheers
It's just one of this big red "deposit" mail boxes that are made out of metal and stand there. No smashing, just changing it's...orientation. It's nobody's property but the government's.Quote:
Would you be having fun replacing your mailbox some morning after a drunk guy smashed it off? I can think of things that would be more fun than that.
Be horrified and think of me as a monster if you like, I can justify it to myself and I can handle any consequences/"what if YOUR mail was in the box?" scenarios. But this is far off topic from the morality of helping someone cheat on homework, so it's the last I'll post about it.
That's true, in specific cases.Quote:
No. Just because something is against the rules doesn't make it immoral.
The thing is, we're working with a general case. I'm looking at it from the point of view that it makes sense to start from scratch in order to learn or practice something new. Presumably the work re-submitted without modification wont score high marks since it will be somewhat off, but it will do as a lazy way out.Quote:
If the point of the assignment is to practice writing a paper (such as in a research methods or creative writing class), then I agree. In that case, the end result is not the focus.
However, if the professor is more interested in the paper than the process, then why do the work again? Having a previously written paper that has already been marked over by a professor is a great tool for improvement. Since the paper will most likely be for a different class, the paper will need to be modified anyway to fit the requirements of that particular assignment.
Ok, I think everyone knows my position on cheating is...but allow me to make one point....
No one on this thread has answered the original question: Is it moral to help someone cheat for money?
Plenty of people have stated why they believe it is not immoral. However, just because something isn't immoral, does not mean it is moral. Why is it "conforming to a standard of right behavior" citation to help someone cheat for money?
The biggest justification I've seen given is it's their problem take money. However, that indicates that the justification is greed. Is greed moral?
So I will restate the original question: Is it moral to help someone cheat for money?
I do not believe so...
To another issue mentioned:
(paraphase of a couple of posts)Quote:
Unfortunately thats not the case. Anytime you copy something without referencing it it is plagerism (even if you wrote the original!). For example, if you write an essay for some class and then later on submit the same essay in a different class, your're actaully plagerising yourself! I've had profs warn against this...
Then again, [it's retarted that it's plagerism to not cite yourself]
To be tactless: You're wrong. It makes perfect sense to cite oneself. The place that I've see authors cite themselves most often is in scientific journals and books. An author is presenting the findings from a scientific expirement. That study builds on previous research. If I'm reading the second study, I sure as hell want references to the first. I will probably want to go back and read the first study to make sure I understand the foundation, and so I can decide if I think that it's a solid study. If the author had just assumed that I knew what he was talking about because he had written it previously, then his writing would look like an unfounded claim.
Zuh? It's been answered several times.Quote:
No one on this thread has answered the original question: Is it moral to help someone cheat for money?
Quote:
You're an idiot if you don't know this is wrong.
Quote:
It's clearly wrong to help someone cheat.
etc etcQuote:
Morals is something that the individual has to decide for themselves.
If something isn't immoral, and it's not moral, what is it? Your last sentence in there doesn't make any sense, either.Quote:
Plenty of people have stated why they believe it is not immoral. However, just because something isn't immoral, does not mean it is moral. Why is it "conforming to a standard of right behavior" citation to help someone cheat for money?
You're right, here. I'm incorrect.Quote:
To be tactless: You're wrong.
Please people, just be appropriately bastardly and do the assignment for him, get paid, and then send the code to the professor.
Now, is _that_ immoral? :-)
That's sneaky and underhanded and I like it, but I don't know where it is on "Ye Olde Morality Metre (c)"
id say that would be worst then doing just the homework.
I imagine that the traditional answer to the question is probably that it's not moral because you shouldn't be taking the responsibility of the punishment upon yourself since it's not your rules that are being broken, and it otherwise makes you come off as a tad greedy. I think the particular concern is that it would probably result in a greater punishment than warranted being handed down from the professor. Unless you think cheaters deserve death, in which case you should feel bad for depriving their family of their rightful inheritance.
ILV: I have to know, why is that worse?
>>Please people, just be appropriately bastardly and do the assignment for him, get paid, and then send the code to the professor
I won't say that I've ever taken someone's IP and turned them in for cheating...but.....
Every one knows that morality is measured in feet, not meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Govtcheez
>>To be tactless: You're wrong. It makes perfect sense to cite oneself. The place that I've see authors cite
>>themselves most often is in scientific journals and books.
I agree here in the case that the original has been published. But in the case where you've written a school assignment for one class then want to use material from it for another class it seems quite odd to reference yourself. Your better off rewriting the material and using the orginal references from the first paper. But this is rather off topic anyway....
I swear we've had this conversation before.
Whether you think is moral is ultimately up to how well you can rationalize it to yourself, but there's no escaping it's unethical. It clearly goes against the ACM and IEEE ethics codes, and your university likely has rules about this you're breaking, too.
Why not charge money to tutor kids? There's plenty of money to be made by smart kids helping others through certain courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by webmaster
because when a student goes out to find someone to
do there homework, they are destroyign themselves,
when the home work doer destroyes them, it just seem
like a higher form of evil.
If you assume that by cheating the student is destroying himself, then you could make the counter-claim that by turning in the student, you're actually doing him a favor since it will prevent more destructive behavior in the future. (Although that would depend on how harsh the punishment is, I guess.)
>Although that would depend on how harsh the punishment is, I guess.
Yah, usually it's expulsion (at least here at my Uni) so I don't know how productive that would be.
Ha...I know we have. We were there. I posted a link to the previous one.Quote:
Originally Posted by joshdick