A bit OT bit you guys are the experts. What are the implications of this ?
halflife2.net
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A bit OT bit you guys are the experts. What are the implications of this ?
halflife2.net
I don't think this is a good thing. Surely this will be bad for game sales. Dodgy versions of the game will be out soon for sure, provided enough of the source code is there. Damn whoever leaked the code!!!
I briefly considered finding the code and having a look. Briefly was about 3 milliseconds before my programmer's sympathy kicked in. The HalfLife2 team have put in so much effort to make game, and any good programmer would do everything in his/her power to make that worth it for them. So I hope no posts go up on these forums condoning the use of this source code. If anyone finds out anything about the leak, do the right thing and send the information to Valve, there is an address at www.halflife2.net where you can send it.
Well, it's JUST the source -- no graphics, sounds, etc. as I understand it, so someone could only build the engine, not the game.
this will be heaven for cheaters, the engine source code is the best thing they can dream of to create cheats.
I feel so sorry for them, this is really a horrible thing to do. There has been tonnes of interest in their engine (perhaps ironically called Source), I just really hope this doesn't somehow effect licence sales.
Maybe nvidia will be able to use the code to get some semi-cridble performance from their cards in HL2, which would be cheating as HL2 is also going to be a benchmark, but it will be good for the suckers who bought FXs.
Up yours. That source code represents years of work by good people. Is it a crime to care?Quote:
Jawib, whoever posted that message is an idiot.
It should be clarified that ther will be NO DODGY versions of hl2 released - source code that was leaked is not the ENGINE source. You see, the source code compiles into vms, dlls or what ever mechanism to be loaded as Libraries for the actual hl ENGINE. The engine is what contains things like rendering routines, windows and graphic modes, input capturing etc. With out the actual hl2.EXE , the source code is of no use. The only use the source code WILL have is to HL2 Mod teams- how are getting a sneak peak (warranted or unwarranted - as it seems a ploy of marketing to me to pass over the delay they DENIED until 2 days after..) at game play source. How ever, no mod will be testable until hl2 is released.
I don't know any details but I can't imagine Gabe himself would make a public appeal if it was just gameplay code and not the engine.
Well think about it for a moment- every one was phyched about hl2 coming out september 30, and gabe himself denied it being delayed, practically the day of estimated release finaly admits it will be delayed "hoping" for a holiday release... People were really ........ed about it.
The greatest thing for a company is hype, it makes the publishers more agreeable and forth coming with the money that pays for the development. I dunno about you, but when the delay was announced, I noticed a lot of people just stop talking about hl2. Sure, Not at hl2.net, but other community sites.
If you think about it, the source code is released to the public any ways so modders can contribute to the game (what made and makes quake and half life so populer and ever evovling). I highly doubt releasing it early (before the game is released) will have any actual negative effect. I really think it was a manuever to get every one buzzing about half life 2 again.
Its strange, in a way I always wished all programs were open source, but for people to put soo much effort into something like that and then have it stolen makes you feel really bad for them. Maybe its just because its the gaming industry and they're a lot closer to their users than others. Personally I've never even played halflife, but poor gabe :(
On one level, yes i feel sorry for the coders that dedicated their lives to writing that software, however about 3 seconds after that i feel like valve got what they deserved. They recently disposed of the WON (For any of you that are farmilliar with their products, and online gameplay, im sure you know what this is, and why i think valve should pay for what they have done / are going to do) and implimented some stupid buggy naziware called STEAM. <Insert favorite joke involving STEAMing heap of bullcrud here> With the source there are bits and pieces to other valve projects, and its rather apparent that steam will in the future support monthly billing. Thats whats got alot of gamers mad and scared, having to pay every month, to play a game you already bought and own. That billing style is amazingly stupid. Most gamers are children, and dont have credit cards. And who would honestly trust their credit cards and other IDENTIFYING information to some company that cant even protect the source code to their game. Im sorry that the coders got screwed, but they should know better than to write naziware. If your out there writing code thats for DRM, or other subversive perposes for big business to control MY PC, your doing something ethically wrong, and any company paying coders to write that code deserves to have their source stolen, credibility ruined, and products shunned. I understand that many of you have no interest in games, or STEAM or any of these politics, and your looking at it strictly from a coders point of view and thats fine, just consider though that a MAJORITY of people who USE THEIR SOFTWARE would find something ethically wrong with whats being writen, and thats why this is not a tragity. Imagine if the full source code to windows 2003 (whatever they call it these days) were stolen? It undoubtably contains DRM code (For those of you that dont know what this is, google or visit www.NOTCPA.org) that would operate on peoples computers and tell them what they can and can not do with hardware and software they legally own, and limit their freedoms. Would it be bad if all of their code were disclosed? Im sure there would be some serious revisions to security, as well as evidence against them and their evil ways. It would open up the door for competition.... Anyways its late and im rambling again, thanks for your time.
Note: If anyone posts a link or any other information pertaining to obtaining the illegal code it will be promptly deleted, and they could risk banning or other punitive actions.
This is absolutely incredable. I can't believe that someone would leak something like this. May God have mercy on the fool who stole the code.....cause accident or not Valve won't!
Valve's official statement.
No it's not a crime to care.Quote:
Originally posted by bennyandthejets
Up yours. That source code represents years of work by good people. Is it a crime to care?
And I didn't say that it's not a shame someone had to do this to make a statement.
I implied that there are not going to be "dodgy versions" of HL2 sprouting up because of this. I assumed RoD wouldn't take a quote like that out of another post rather than posting in that thread, I assumed wrong.
I can't find it anymore, but I saw a file list. It included a large directory named "Engine" with several hundred .h and .C++ files. That and everything else I've heard leads me to believe that the engine was indeed stolen.Quote:
It should be clarified that ther will be NO DODGY versions of hl2 released - source code that was leaked is not the ENGINE source. You see, the source code compiles into vms, dlls or what ever mechanism to be loaded as Libraries for the actual hl ENGINE.
BMJ, this guy stole your avatar (or you from him :p
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/show...&pagenumber=12
or is it you?
Just to clarify. It is a huge amount of source code, It does include the engine, and this is a bad thing.
and some disclaimers say copyright 2003. I was really looking forward to this game, and I hope this does not have a negative impact on the game itself (but hey, maybe this means someone will compile it for linux :))Code://=========== (C) Copyright 1999 Valve, L.L.C. All rights reserved. ===========
//
// The copyright to the contents herein is the property of Valve, L.L.C.
// The contents may be used and/or copied only with the written permission of
// Valve, L.L.C., or in accordance with the terms and conditions stipulated in
// the agreement/contract under which the contents have been supplied.
//
// $Header: $
// $NoKeywords: $
//
// Implementation of a material
//=============================================================================
I didnt post any quotes BMJ, what are you talking about?Quote:
Originally posted by BMJ
No it's not a crime to care.
And I didn't say that it's not a shame someone had to do this to make a statement.
I implied that there are not going to be "dodgy versions" of HL2 sprouting up because of this. I assumed RoD wouldn't take a quote like that out of another post rather than posting in that thread, I assumed wrong.
No one deserves this.Quote:
however about 3 seconds after that i feel like valve got what they deserved.
This is the game industry people, I can't remember any games that weren't delayed, everyone knew half-life2 was gonna be delayed, perhaps Gabe was hopeful that whatever it was would be easily resolved, you don't know.
I wish people would stop all this open source talk, you're like modern day hippies! There are times when open source doesn't work, and I think that's here. Companies need to make money, if their source code is freely available, why would anyone bother paying for licences? Licences will probably make up more money for valve than sales.
Er, I meant JaWib... I haven't slept in over a day :(Quote:
Originally posted by RoD
I didnt post any quotes BMJ, what are you talking about?
The entire engine's source was leaked... er, don't hate me for being curious and looking myself. I was actually quite blown away to be looking HL2's engine source. The leak contained batch build files/notes that no SDK would have, and even contained the "to-be" released public SDK directory. :( But yes, the entire engine was leaked.Quote:
It should be clarified that ther will be NO DODGY versions of hl2 released - source code that was leaked is not the ENGINE source. You see, the source code compiles into vms, dlls or what ever mechanism to be loaded as Libraries for the actual hl ENGINE.
Yes, retail games should not be open-source, IMHO.Quote:
Originally posted by HybridM
I wish people would stop all this open source talk, you're like modern day hippies! There are times when open source doesn't work
whered you get the SS from brian?
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11913
I just looked around for a few minutes to see how hard it was to find the source. I didn't try very hard, because I don't want it, but I didn't see it anywhere. Hopefully it's hard to find.Quote:
While the source code does not include the full game, the source code of the engine can be examined to create exploits in the game.
Uhhh...a friend :)Quote:
Originally posted by the Wookie
whered you get the SS from brian?
This has nothing to do with delays, or open source. They were up to no good with a new billing model and BACK DOORED PRODUCTS. Read the partial source from steam. Ask people that know about steam. They can remotely install, delete, edit, and control your pooter. It is DRM and DRM is wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by HybridM
No one deserves this.
This is the game industry people, I can't remember any games that weren't delayed, everyone knew half-life2 was gonna be delayed, perhaps Gabe was hopeful that whatever it was would be easily resolved, you don't know.
I wish people would stop all this open source talk, you're like modern day hippies! There are times when open source doesn't work, and I think that's here. Companies need to make money, if their source code is freely available, why would anyone bother paying for licences? Licences will probably make up more money for valve than sales.
Nope, not me... they stole Hillbillie's avatar @ FD too ;DQuote:
Originally posted by maes
BMJ, this guy stole your avatar (or you from him :p
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/show...&pagenumber=12
or is it you?
i found it on kazaa in about five minutes. i dont' know if i am going to download it...would it really be wrong just to look at it? I'm a coder and could actually appreciate their work, as long as I don't use it to cheat (which I wouldn't, because I hate playing multiplayer games anyway)
The source code will come out legally eventually anyway. I think, as a token of appreciation, it would be better to wait until then. For now, buy the game (when it comes out) and have some fun.
What makes you think the source will ever be released legally to non licensees?
No, some people are confused...
Valve's SDK is not their complete engine source. Which btw, is lisenced from ID software (it's still using a Quake base apparently :))
They usually do don't they? Like, Q2 source came out recently. Although, it did take quite a while.Quote:
Originally posted by Silvercord
What makes you think the source will ever be released legally to non licensees?
so because id releases their stuff you think everyone does? that's like saying just because bmj is gay and just because I have sex with him you assume that I too am gay...wow benny stop being so gay...wow that post i just made was really gay...yay...
What are you, 5 years old? All I said was I thought people usually release source code. I never said I was sure. Grow up.
The sources that are eventually released are so old that the games aren't played anymore.
I haven't looked at the source yet, although I will. Just imagine if the networking part was stolen. Any good coder could code a proxy server so he can run his (client side detectable) cheats on one computer and have his (checked) gaming client on another. Absolutely undetectable cheats. Happy gaming... not !
The SDK would have been released just like Hal Life's was, but that doesnt include the engine. As for quake, that has been out for a long time.
And as far as buying it, i have had a preorder on my copy since the beginning of summer, was supposed to ship in september but now this crap :rolleyes:
I don't know anything about steam, I've never used it and I never will. To me Steam sounds like another of Valve's great initiatives, that new protocol (name escapes me).
But I loved half-life to death, that's all I care about.
I think a lot of people are making mountains out of molehills -- Valve won't be hurt commercially, because no serious company will use a stolen version of the engine as opposed to licensing. Realistically, this is not nearly as bad as pirated copies of the final game, and we all know those are inevitable once release happens. This has the engine, but not the textures, etc. that would be needed for a production version.
About the only thing the source is good for is looking in awe at how a professional game is written.
the number of people who still play quake 1-3 is impressive...Quote:
The sources that are eventually released are so old that the games aren't played anymore.
When you look at the CS scene and how much work goes into developing cheats and anticheat tools, you will see that leaked source is about the worst that can happen to an online multiplayer game that has players waiting to build new cheats and bots...Quote:
About the only thing the source is good for is looking in awe at how a professional game is written.
The source code is also good for figuring out how the game works..Being able to develop cheats for it.. And also give Valves competitors a chance if they have no morals, to see what makes Halflife2 tick, and figure out how Valve pulled off alot of the stuff in the game like that really advanced ai... This has bad implications for Valve, cause now the game will have to be delayed so they can modify the code to make sure the cheats can be prevented... and also Valve might get sued, cause in the source was released the source for other things that they had licensed from other companys.. Which are going to be very ........ed about, and might blame Valve for the code getting out... Those companys life blood is in the sources they license to companys like Valve, and now that its out..Theyll want to be reimbursed.
Some of you belong on the Counter-Strike.net forums :rolleyes:
LMAO hahaha burnQuote:
Originally posted by BMJ
Some of you belong on the Counter-Strike.net forums :rolleyes:
Uhh...IT'S NOT THEIR SDK!. It was stolen from a developers computer using an Internet Explorer bug, from within an email message opened with Outlook Express.
Hopefully Valve will find out who stole it, and everyon that downloaded it so they can sue everyone that has it to make more money and maybe hire a top notch mod team to make some sweet mods for HL2.
I wouldn't worry about this too much, there shouldn't be any cheating online, and offline, well there always is an who cares? It won't affect you.
It is a real shame that their code was stolen, I can only hope that the people that do download it either don't know what to do with it(Kids that get it for the sake of having it) or are people that won't use it to steal the code and implement into their own engine/game.
Sue everyone who has it? What are you stupid? Everyone who cares about HL, within reason, has this source. So now your going to sue your market? Brilliance, why didnt i think of that!
If I were an evil lawyer type that would indeed be a brilliant idea. Why get $40 from each person in the market for buying Half-Life when you can get $40,000+ by suing them?
If I were an evil lawyer type. :p
Yea, because that would be a smart move in the long run? So your going to sue the HL community over HL2 source, and ruin the driving and developmental force that HL2 carried with it? So you not only wreck HL2 but wreck the potential of community HL2 expansion and possibility of a HL3 because you killed the market.
Wrong, its a stupid idea.
they will never find the people that stole it, and even if they do they will never eradicate it from the internet. On top of being on kazaa, it's already spreading like wildfire via underground transfer programs such as bit torrent.
SSSHHHH!!!!! DONT TELL ANYBODY!!!Quote:
Originally posted by Silvercord
...underground transfer programs such as bit torrent.
yea cuz ppl dont already know :rolleyes:
I am joking but im sure you of all people knew that =P
Hi, I'm the RIAA, have we met? You seem familiar.Quote:
Originally posted by RoD
Sue everyone who has it? What are you stupid? Everyone who cares about HL, within reason, has this source. So now your going to sue your market? Brilliance, why didnt i think of that!
hahaha, good one ken
RIAA = Retards in AAction
Sue everyone that downloads music? What are you stupid? Everyone who likes music, within reason, has downloaded music from kazaa. So now you're going to sue your market? Brilliance, why didn't I think of that!Quote:
Sue everyone who has it? What are you stupid? Everyone who cares about HL, within reason, has this source. So now your going to sue your market? Brilliance, why didnt i think of that!
Either this was sarcasm, or someone needs a copy of CS and a public server...Quote:
I wouldn't worry about this too much, there shouldn't be any cheating online, and offline, well there always is an who cares? It won't affect you.
Well, half sarasm(as was apparent in my whole post).
I have played CS, the game is ruined by hacking. Public servers are awfull ones to play on anyways.
CS has been releasing anti-cheat patches and any good server runs anti-cheat software.
I would hope they can stay on top of the cheaters, so we won't have anything to worry about.
Thanks for rehashing my joke and making it unfunny.Quote:
Originally posted by Glirk Dient
Sue everyone that downloads music? What are you stupid? Everyone who likes music, within reason, has downloaded music from kazaa. So now you're going to sue your market? Brilliance, why didn't I think of that!
Sorry, I just posted that after I read his response to my initial post, Oh well I didn't know what the RIAA was until I read your response to my post so I probally would have done the same.
That's true. However, as any 'good' virus, a cheat can only be detected after it is know to the anti-cheat tool writers. One of my friends is working with the CD ( Cheating Death ) Team, and I really don't like what I see there. They know what can be done and they really don't play anymore except for LANs with friends.Quote:
CS has been releasing anti-cheat patches and any good server runs anti-cheat software.
Even if all people are running anti-cheat tools... cheating is just a matter of finding the right download link.
Anything can be hacked. It's just the nature of computer software. There will never be a cheat-proof game.
Theres a anti-cheat system that never fails, common sense.
If you see someone walking through walls getting headshots across the map he just might be hacking.
Good cheats aren't that obvious. You will not notice a good cheater. He will just be a little bit better than you are.
Hmm, I doubt that someone will use some obvious cheat like walking through walls, on the other hand, good players do get headshots from far away, so you may end up accusing a good (not cheating) player.Quote:
Originally posted by Glirk Dient
Theres a anti-cheat system that never fails, common sense.
If you see someone walking through walls getting headshots across the map he just might be hacking.
wow gl you must play alot of hl :rolleyes:
I used to play a lot of CS until I realized it sucked because of all the hacking. It is easy to spot someone hacking if you have used similar things yourself(I'm not a lamer, I only used it a few times to see how it worked).
Spectator cheats are VERY obviouse, and everyone knows they do it. So some people do use obviouse cheats.
If they are VERY good at hiding it, then by all means let them since they must have spent so much time perfecting it, that they could have spent that time becoming that good.
Least your open with it.Quote:
Originally posted by Glirk Dient
I'm a lamer.
Stop insulting each other there is no need.
I originally thought this was a terrible thing, but in the end it's probably just more publicity for Valve and HL2. They'll make appropriate modifications to making cheating a bit harder.
I couldnt help that one, im a bad boy.Quote:
Originally posted by HybridM
Stop insulting everyone but me, i have needs too.
apparently the game is being delayed because of the leak.
Just an excuse if you ask me.
April 2004?? WTF!??
Well, good news for ID software :) I like their answer to release-date related questions.... "When it's done."
HL2 had the advantage of establishing a fan-base and mod-base before Doom3 came into play... but after being delayed for over a year... looks like Doom3 has a good chance of kicking HL2 out of the picture.
they will share the picture. They are both going to be great games. People seem to forget that Doom3 has a better lighting system, and that it also has incredibly good physics. The only problem with the fully dynamic lighting system is Doom3 runs like caca. I like half life 2's lighting system: they use lightmaps for static world geometry and only do dynamic stencil shadows for objects that move, such as characters. I downloaded a 600MB movie of half life 2 and the game actually runs! I was like, omg! But then again ID pre scripted everything from the Doom3 movie at E3 and it looked like it was running real time, even though it wasn't, so, umm, yeah.
EDIT:
and the shadows in half life 2 look better than the shadows in Doom3. With the stencil shadows you can only ever do hard shadows, and because it is so farking dark in doom3 it looks like nothing is even being drawn where there is an object in a stencil shadow, but in half life 2 all they do is turn off ambient lighting to whatever is in shadow, but they still receive the abundant ambient lighting and it looks mucho sexy.
You can't judge a game that's still in alpha form.
Doom3 has a lot of work to go yet. Well, less than, but still - the leaked alpha thing that was floating around is a poor testimate to what the engine will be like when finished.
Yes BMJ but a wiseman once told me you cant' judge a game by its alpha form
EDIT: and the dynamic shadows require a lot more calculations by both the processor and GPU realtime, lightmaps don't. I can describe the algorithms for BOTH if anybody wants me to (i typed it up and posted it but decided people would think im just being pretentious and bragging, which is partly what i was doing but i took it down until someoen asks for it)
Actually i would like to see that, silvercord.
[email protected]
I still think Carmack knows more about what he's doing than you do Silvercord.
I would be interested to see how it works as well, Silvercord.
[email protected]
You're right BMJ, and if you download any movies about carmack talking about Doom3 they all involve him saying he's still trying to get his engine to run fast enough, and it probably won't ever be as fast as half life 2 if he uses fully dynamic stencil shadows (i don't think everything is or will be fully dynamic)
im not going to email this to both of you, i'm just going to post the idea, plus if i have said anything wrong this makes it more likely someone will catch it...it's not going to make a whole hell of a lot of sense unless you read some articles with pictures.
this is just the idea for doing a stencil shadow, to actually implement this you've got to do jumping jacks to get it to work (otherwise if you just perform a thing called ZPass stencil shadow tests the entire world goes into what is called negative shadow when the eye point is in inside a shadow volume, and it farks up...carmack's 'reverse' method actually takes even more steps and more tests)
dynamic shadows with the stencil buffer require a lot of calculations realtime by both the CPU and the video card you have to classify each triangle as facing a light or not facing a light by using dotproducts, then you have to find which edges are the silhouette edge by determining if an edge touches a front facing polygon on one side and a back facing polygon on the other side, then you have to actually create extended polygons that go from the light source through the silhouette edge polygons and you have to draw those into the stencil buffer which requires depth tests, and only after doing all of THAT crap you have what is in shadow, with a lightmap you simply do a second texture pass, and lightmapping algorithms are much easier and pre computed! you just trace a ray from each texel to each light and if the texel is blocked you don't take that light into account for that texel's color
EDIT: that really doesn't even fully describe the algorithm, that is just the steps you have to do in order to create shadow volume polygons. i have to go to school right now though (maybe i can post later)
Nice periods :P
thnx man
U guyz know that the Beta has also been leaked? Just a thought to stir the pot...
Yes I know - www.fragville.com/shader.gif <-- dig those shaders on the floor
... someone, showed this to me... yea :confused: ;)
Carmack has been quiet for a while now... I'm sure he's trying to make things faster, he's not dumb at least - who knows what'll happen in the next 8 - 12 months.