We cannot tell what USA got from this but time can, we can only try to guess.
Lets see what we got from this war.
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We cannot tell what USA got from this but time can, we can only try to guess.
Lets see what we got from this war.
1) We got a re-assertion of our dominance...
2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.
3) Whether they like it or not Iraq will be under direct US influence for the next 5yrs and probably indirect influence for the next 10. I'm sure they will grow into a very very powerful ally in that region for us - whether they like it or not.
4) We get to shuck the UN, we've been trying since 1994-95 to do that, now we can.
5) We've tightened our grip in the arabian peninsula and are marching towardz new influence in the cuacasus (many NATO bases are being moved to the smaller former soviet republics).
6) fill in here.... there's a million awesome things we got, i haven't even touched on the oil or economic benefits - it's all good - if you're american.
ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.
BTW, if there are any arabs here, can you tell me how much the US is actually hated over there?
>>2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.
Better words were never spoken
There are no more weapons of mass destruction and the world is completely safe because there are no other countries that could POSSIBLY give wmd to terrorists (especially not china, russia, israel, india, pakistan, south africa, or north korea) and there are no longer atrocities being comitted in the world because saddam hussein is no longer in power and now all of the arabs like chicken and surf the internet and do drugs and want to be just like us
say it, i know it, im an $$$$$$$
I completely agree with OSR. However, there was the downside of the war that golfinguy mentioned. Although, in time, when it's clearly shown the benefits Iraq received from the war, hatred towards America from Arabs will decrease.
Oil?
>>I completely agree with OSR.
You just made Jesus cry.
the funny part about this is that clinton basicly said this to our military.Quote:
There are no more weapons of mass destruction and the world is completely safe because there are no other countries that could POSSIBLY give wmd to terrorists (especially not china, russia, israel, india, pakistan, south africa, or north korea) and there are no longer atrocities being comitted in the world because saddam hussein is no longer in power and now all of the arabs like chicken and surf the internet and do drugs and want to be just like us
"ok guys, theres no more soviet union so we cant possible need a decent military. lets cut you budge in half and see how french we can make you."
-president bill "wheres monica" clinton
what would you prefer? we could of let him stay in power, but when they finally get around to overthrowing a couple years later we get blamed for not doing anything. but if we do get involved its imperialism. i hate to say it, but do we really care? a bunch of basicly hillbillies with aks are angry, atleat the guy that could be a handfull and could do some real damge to us is gone. it will take a while but people will learn, atleast nothing can happen to us .Quote:
ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.
yes, i said us. if you are a american you should want us to succeed first the other countries and you should value american lives just alittle more.
its rarely are figh, but we still get involved. half the time our(yes, are "allies") dont have a chance. its seems like appreciated every one in the military and everybody that died became to un politicaly correct. but this is "progress".
Words more indicative of a person's intelligence were never spoken.Quote:
Originally posted by RoD
>>2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.
Better words were never spoken
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.Quote:
Words more indicative of a person's intelligence were never spoken.
its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?
we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.
My previous post stands corrected.Quote:
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.
Wow, I really hope that someone like you never attains any form of power whatsoever. If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."Quote:
Originally posted by mart_man00
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.
its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?
we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.
>>If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."
likes thats not going to happen anyway??
>>ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.
ohh no, you've got this wrong... 99.9999998% of the arabs hated us before this -- ie. 9/11 -- ie. there bin laden t-shirtz and other crap. We've now killed a good percentage of their most fanatical who went to Afghanistan and then iraq to fight jihad!!! -- those who survived ran back home with their tailz between their legs.
Now 99.8% and falling hate us and we've removed a source of funding and weapons for these terrorists and also a huge reason for hating us -- namely that our troops were stationed inside of kuwait and saudi arabia -- our troops are being pulled out of saudi arabia and the number of troops in kuwait and elsewhere are being reduced.
I have a strange fondness for this JIHAD!!! now, i'm not talking about terrorizm -- but this is why they launched 9/11 -- it was an attempt to goad us into jihad -- they got their wish and we aint done yet either...
"If their wish is to be sent to allah, we'll accomodate 'em" -- Gen. Tommy Franks
not a bad idea, to bad it couldnt be done........Quote:
If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."
i like the east $hit and die foreign policy better. not get involved with conflicts not involving/threatening us and not helping any one thats hurting us.
You're right, intelligence breeds pussy pinko commie fags. I say we slaughter any weaker country, especially ones where they're starving and can barely feed themselves. I mean, who the ........ are they helping? They're just a drain on the planet's resources.Quote:
Originally posted by mart_man00
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.
its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?
we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.
God I hope you're some idiot's gimmick account. If not, I've lost faith in humanity. Go kill yourself, for the love of God.
hmm, not terrorists or get own military killed for conflicts that arent ours, so objectionable. its only what the country was founded, its only common sense. just because it didnt work for the first decase maybe it will work for the next one, after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.
great, from a man in fl, you cant vote but you can get on a board, what a country this has turned into. bet you filled in clinton to.......
Voting jokes? You, sir, are the epitome of wit.Quote:
Originally posted by mart_man00
hmm, not terrorists or get own military killed for conflicts that arent ours, so objectionable. its only what the country was founded, its only common sense. just because it didnt work for the first decase maybe it will work for the next one, after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.
great, from a man in fl, you cant vote but you can get on a board, what a country this has turned into. bet you filled in clinton to.......
I believe that the US benefited, the whole point of this was to stop another Hitler on the uprise. We accomplished that, he was just finishing what daddy started(don't quote me on that).
Anyways, there is always going to be some anti-whatever person here complaining about everything. I think our method saved more lives in the longrun.
Either way, it already happened.
sorry, had to quote it. why didnt we take care of him the first time around anyway? any history buffs in the thread?Quote:
We accomplished that, he was just finishing what daddy started.
The War in Iraq foused the US media on a bad guy that could be punished for his actions. Away from the shadowy terrorists that can't be found.
They are armed with nukes and fissile material (for dirty bombs). The US secret service assumes they are already in the US.
So the 'Battle for Iraq' reasured the US public that the US is strong and capable and hid the fact that the terrorists can attack anytime they want and can not be stopped.
GWB looks like a hero, ready for a second term, with some great PR footage on the carrier. (As long as no-one mentions the kids in Camp X-Ray.)
Cheney's going to make huge $ from Iraqi oil (his company Halliburton was awarded the billion $ contract without any other tenders)
In response to the other posts.
>>just like giving every one a say doesnt work.
So democracy, like that in the US isn't working?
>>how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year!
So if it does not have a $ value it is worthless. So if I make more money than you I am better and should have more say than you in how the world is run?
This is what is wrong with US culture, no moral fiber. No compassion, no respect for other cultures and people.
>> It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.
Why is it that disagreeing with any US foriegn policy is 'anti US'?
Can you only be pro US if you agree with everything the US administration wants to do?
>>a bunch of basicly hillbillies with aks are angry,
And with access to plane tickets or fertilizer and diesel......
>>atleat the guy that could be a handfull and could do some real damge to us is gone.
With what could Sadam have done any dammage? His 24 outdated fighters?
The tonnes of WMD the US has discovered and destroyed?
>>it will take a while but people will learn, atleast nothing can happen to us .
No chance of a repeat of S11 or Bali or USS Cole or Indian Parlement or Russian theater or ??
>>what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?
Why is it all about how much we owe the US?
USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GDP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world.
The order of the top 20 based as a percentage of total country income is in 2001:
Denmark
Norway
Netherlands
Luxembourg
Sweden
Belgium
Switzerland
France
Ireland
Finland
UK
Spain
Germany
Portugal
New Zealand
Austria
Australia
Japan
canada
Greece
Italy
US
source :: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp
Since 1992 Japan has been the worlds largest _gross_ Aid contributor.
The US regained this in 2001 thanks to $600 million in aid to Pakistan for its help in Afghanistan.
>>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.
Oh. So no UK personel were killed?
No Australians were involved?
No Iraqi civilians or Kurdish fighters were either?
No other countries were involved in Afghanistan?
US always plays a double game.. THough it knows that Pakistan supports Jihad and terrorism it supports them.. And say after 10 years will have a war with them as it happened in Afganistan and Iraq. Give them all the weapons as aid and then after 10 years say that they have weapon of mass distruction...
no time to do all mthe posts
no, money doesnt matter, unless it looks like money from decades ago.Quote:
So if it does not have a $ value it is worthless. So if I make more money than you I am better and should have more say than you in how the world is run?
If you're an American who believes in the same principles the Founding Fathers used to validate the American War for Independence, you believe in the equality of all people--no life is more valuable than another. You would also believe that a people has a right to determine its own government and not have some foreign power impose a particular government upon them.Quote:
Originally posted by mart_man00
yes, i said us. if you are a american you should want us to succeed first the other countries and you should value american lives just alittle more.
In the short run, having the United States restore a democratic government to Iraq may seem like a good thing, but the Shiite Muslims already seem poised to create a fundamentalist Islamic republic if the democratic voice of the nations in Iraq are truly heard. The United States is supposedly working to prevent any fundamentalist or despotic governments from regenerating in this country, but again this violates democratic principles even if the principle means the end of democracy in an area.
It still seems, under the guise of bringing a more liberal democracy to Iraq, that the U.S. government has really prepared for the imperial extraction of natural resources and wealth. The U.S. is having new laws written that are very friendly to large American corporations (instead of allowing Iraq to develop its own economic policy and regulations) and is handing out contracts for things they cannot claim to own except by force of arms.
Yes, I am always for letting people live their lives free from the control of a despotic totalitarian government; yes, I am always in favor of letting the people have control of their government; but I also believe these principles cannot be violated to achieve those ends.
god save the queen
mart_man00 quote:
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If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."
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not a bad idea, to bad it couldnt be done........
i like the east $hit and die foreign policy better. not get involved with conflicts not involving/threatening us and not helping any one thats hurting us.
NONE OF US HERE SAID, "US SUCKS" ~ IT'S JUST YOUR WAY OF THINKING..
I can understand the Americans who say, US is the only country, all the others are $$$$ ... .
I can understand this because about 60-70 years ago, it was the same situation in Germany, where I'm from.
People even loved the nazi regime and they lived for it. This was the case becouse they were victims of propagande. They just did not know what was going on.
But they woke up,... badly..
Compare the methods of the nazi regime and some techniques used to make the american population believe that what they are doing has to be done and is the only right thing.
(Compare: Germany overrun Poland,saying Poland attacked Germany -- now, ever heard of the legend of an american ship which was sayed to be attacked by >>a country<<)
I can understand your thoughts because you don't know what's going on in America (at least very few of you know what is going on).
Your president makes you believe that Saddam is dangerous for you, that he has got MCWs. He doesn't have.
Even the CIA says that there is no danger for the US becouse of Iraq. The people who invented this story is a group (of about 20 people)in Pentagon which G.W.Bush has created to justify war against Iraq.
The "proves" the US presented the world at the UN figured out to be not true within a few day (sometimes heard about 1 day).
Big Question:
How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President. I think if Bush would not be your President, you would think different, and things would be much better now.
Wake up! Don't let blind yourselves from your government.
Maybe you will wake up,..,when it's too late.
Don't believe everything, question their statements.
Hey, non US people don't hate you because they say what you are doing is not ok, and war can be avoided, people die.
you will die as well.Quote:
>>If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."
likes thats not going to happen anyway??
if all americans think would have thought the same way, world would not exist in its actual form!Quote:
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in,
I hope not all americans are your opinion.
Maybe you will understand what war is like, when you feel bombs falling on your head.
Well most arab muslims hate the USA that's for sure. I know that cuz i see that in my country everyday (Lebanon); They always try to blow up the McDonalds/Burgur Kings and other american restaurants. I know that most of you don't undestand this, but most of the muslim arab world can't survive without dictatorship. I mean they hide behind their fake democracy, but the truth is that most arab countries are ruled by dictators. Take syria for exemple, just after the death of the president, his son was elected by 99.9%. Same thing happens in Egypt,Lybia...A president getting elected by a 99.9% majority isn't a demopcracy. That was makes the arab muslim hate the USA so much, they haven't experienced democracy by any means. Oh another thing, don't get fooled by the arab demonstration against the US that you see on TV, you must understand that most of the arab muslim persons will support whoever is in power, they don't support an opinion, they don't support a plan to develop their countries...they just support the man who is in power. I can giveyou an exemple: In my country, politicians are all morons and don't have a clue about how to play a real role in politics, they just rip the country, increase taxes...and people usually demostrates against them and their new rules..but when elections are due...PUFF PUFF GIVE...same people are elected(or their sons). Same family names are still in power here since the second wolrd war. Anywayz, the conclusion is that whoever doesn't experience any political democracy will unconsciously hate the US when western presidents start talking about the arab world and its democracy.Quote:
[i]ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.
BTW, if there are any arabs here, can you tell me how much the US is actually hated over there [/B]
>>What WanTeD said<<
It's not often I post on the GD board cos most of it is rubbish but what this man says is probably the best post I have read in a while. In the west we live our free lives and look upon the east, almost as inferior, and ask ourselves the question 'How can anyone want to live under anything but democracy?'. Well the fact is we understand NOTHING about the Arab world but yet we automatically assume that our way of life is the best and that everyone should be subjected to it. In my opinion, that is what is at fault in many global disputes.
n_h, people with alot of weapons and a history often turn out to be alright. he wantes to have us killed, has weapons that can kill small(still a few thousand still counts) ammount and will have huge amounts, if its not us it will be some one. then we will get blamed for when hussien nukes france and we did nothing(i forget who said this, "we can count on the french to be there when they need us").
thats just plan bull. by that there should still be slavery and still be nazis. i sure slave owners hated the north and loved free labor, it was so cheap, so productive. democracy isnt perfect(remember us americans have a republic), but its the best humans have come up with.Quote:
that our way of life is the best and that everyone should be subjected to it.
thanks WanTeD, that kind of stuff is rarely said.
>>How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President.
We are a representative democracy - a TRUE democracy would be the most cumbersome and awful thing you could ever imagine. It's true that Bush did not get the most votes technically - but he won the most states and that's how our system works... if it worked any other way why would any polotician care to court the votes of the states in the center of the country??? most of the population is along the coasts -- we could completly ignore the plight and votes of those in the farmlandz.
We have a BILL OF RIGHTS to protect indivuals and minority groups from the will of the majority -- the majority is not always right.
Quote:
Originally posted by OneStiffRod
>>How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President.
Even A democratic country cannot democratize another country. I had a list somewhere of some not-democratic countries that were conquered by the US in order to free their people from their ruling dictators in the last 30 years or so, well only few and very few of them have a peacful life with a democratic system.
Well the truth is that if the people don't move a finger to fight their unfair system, even if that system disappears, the people have lived their lives under that dictatoship, not knowing or fearing to express their true opinions, will prefer to stay that way instead of the 'unknown' democracy.
> I can understand the Americans who say, US is the only country, all the others are
> $$$$ ... .
>
> I can understand this because about 60-70 years ago, it was the same situation in
> Germany, where I'm from.
How can you understand? I can't, my country was one of those taken by the nazi's those days. Many people here, especially those who survived WW2, wouldn't understand, they would wonder how it comes the world hasn't learned from WW2.
> Maybe you will understand what war is like, when you feel bombs falling on your head.
I agree, I think it makes a big difference if you're from a country which has experienced to be taken or not. It does influence a country's thinking about war and peace. Last week we had the 5th of May celebrations, the day our country was freed from the nazi's. Each year this day people here think about war and peace and other things going on in this world.
> democracy isnt perfect(remember us americans have a republic), but its the best
> humans have come up with.
One of the best. Another good thing is solidairity.
> Even A democratic country cannot democratize another country.
No country can democratize other countries. A country can only democratize itself, other countries can only try to create conditions in which a democracy can grow.
If I were president of a country and I would tell people from an other country how to behave, would I be a dictator then?
> will prefer to stay that way instead of the 'unknown' democracy.
I think that is correct.
A lot of people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy with the new system, they say it was better in the old Sovjet-system. In the western part of Europe, people are amazed about that, but they just saw the Sovjet-system from the outside and learned about it from western newspapers and other media. Just to give an example, Gorbachov is a respected man here in the west, but from people from Armenia and Azerbeidjan living here in my city I know they hate them, he killed many people in their countries, including their families, why they fled many years ago to western Europe. In the western newspapers people usually read that Gorbachov was trying to make the USSR more democratic.
One of the reasons why people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy is that the new system came to fast and led to chaos in their country. It does take many generations before a country has learned to live with a new system and can use a different system to take advantage of it, if that is possible.
The same will be in Iraq. The US nor the UN we able to democratize Iraq. They will maybe only be able to create conditions in which a democracy could grow, but also that will take many generations.
Little story,
I have a book called 'Inside Espionage' which is an autobiography of a former operative in the CIA. In the book he gives many stories of various people he's met in his years as a spy. One of those accounts is of 2 russians who defected to America spilling the beans about some aspect of the KGB. The US government gave them a house, a car, a salary forever more etc. After 2 years, one of them gave it all up and went back to The Soviet Union, in full knowledge that he would be thrown in prison for life or would simply 'disappear'. Living under our system and not being told how to behave 24 hours a day was simply too much for him and he would rather spend his life in jail.
Seems very strange doesn't it? I can't understand that way of thinking as I guess most here couldn't. Which is why the idea of the west imposing a way of life on others is doomed to end in disaster.
yeah, he would rether spend his life in jail. he couldnt possibly of felt guilty for betraying what was his country for the longest time or missing family. democracy is evil.
maybe it we are pushing it to fast, it did take us a while for our half-$ssed one.
America are constantly throwing their weight (being the fattest country in the world, they have a lot of it) around. It won't do them any favours in the future. They already have the hatred of the entire middle east, and anybody that says America attacked Iraq to free the people is full of $$$$. America attacked Iraq because their oil was too expensive and they wanted a discount.
>>A lot of people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy with the new system, they say it was better in the old Sovjet-system.
Ohh yes, I completly understand this, the old soviet saying "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us."
In communism everyone has a job -- that job being spying on your neighbors for the state.
It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a lack of money. This is something that is a problem everywhere -- and guess what, in socialist & communist countries this problem is only growing and prevalent compared to capatilist democracies. This lack of money can be solved and it doesn't require the loss of freedoms, socialism, nor communism.
It's true that democracy can only exist when the ppl support and involve themselves in it... it cannot be imposed with success... this is a weakness but also an admirable quality that a true democracy can't be imposed.
For those who don't participate in their democracy to keep it a democracy, they will find themselves in the same position as I think Zimbabwee or some other country I read about Maldova or some country... this is where they had 1 vote 1 time and elected a dictator who promised socialist/communist benefits at the cost of freedoms and authoritative rule.
"It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a lack of money"
Right so there's no such thing as an unhappy millionaire? What nonsense, psychological studies have shown many times that contrary to popular belief wealth is not the be all and end all in terms of happiness, in fact in many instances the correlation is a poor one.
"This is something that is a problem everywhere -- and guess what, in socialist & communist countries this problem is only growing and prevalent compared to capatilist democracies"
Can you please give an example of a "socialist" country.
Sorry that I'm late, but thank you very much. I have been wanting to know the opinion of the arab world. Ignorance is what leads to these problems and I hope that some day, the world will be a different place.Quote:
Originally posted by WanTeD
Well most arab muslims hate the USA that's for sure. I know that cuz i see that in my country everyday (Lebanon); They always try to blow up the McDonalds/Burgur Kings and other american restaurants. I know that most of you don't undestand this, but most of the muslim arab world can't survive without dictatorship. I mean they hide behind their fake democracy, but the truth is that most arab countries are ruled by dictators. Take syria for exemple, just after the death of the president, his son was elected by 99.9%. Same thing happens in Egypt,Lybia...A president getting elected by a 99.9% majority isn't a demopcracy. That was makes the arab muslim hate the USA so much, they haven't experienced democracy by any means. Oh another thing, don't get fooled by the arab demonstration against the US that you see on TV, you must understand that most of the arab muslim persons will support whoever is in power, they don't support an opinion, they don't support a plan to develop their countries...they just support the man who is in power. I can giveyou an exemple: In my country, politicians are all morons and don't have a clue about how to play a real role in politics, they just rip the country, increase taxes...and people usually demostrates against them and their new rules..but when elections are due...PUFF PUFF GIVE...same people are elected(or their sons). Same family names are still in power here since the second wolrd war. Anywayz, the conclusion is that whoever doesn't experience any political democracy will unconsciously hate the US when western presidents start talking about the arab world and its democracy.
2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.
What countries, exactly, are you saying are anti-US? I don't want to start an arguement, but I am curious. The first thing that came to my mind would've been the countries who refused to take part in the war, which wouldn't make them anti-US.
>>we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.
Just because something hasn't worked so well doesn't mean to give up. The principals of the UN are respectable. I think it should stay. How many of the countries objecting have a right to argue? O...M...G
>>its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?
If you are conveying that the U.S. does everything in their power to help the world and that noone in the world gives back, then I disagree with your comment. I hate it when I hear people $$$$$ at how much the U.S. gives to the world, I like my american neighbors, but I cannot stand it when I hear that people think that the world owes them something.
>>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.
You're full of $$$$. You arn't the only ones who have had your soldiers killed, in somalia pakistan saved you. In Cyprus Canadian soldiers died as well. In Korea thousands of Canadians, British, and other nations soldiers died. Did you know that for many years the United States refused to pay their UN dues on account that they were not treated fairly by the UN? Would you call this footing the bill? Stop acting like the US is picked on.
>>1) We got a re-assertion of our dominance...
I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.
>>I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.
I am saying that, just look around u dude....
>>What countries, exactly, are you saying are anti-US? I don't want to start an arguement, but I am curious. The first thing that came to my mind would've been the countries who refused to take part in the war, which wouldn't make them anti-US.
I'm mainly talking about france and germany... France will be "removed" from all future decisions in NATO, and Germany, it's almost a done deal, will lose most of the NATO bases inside germany as the US is now planning to move them to our new friends in the former soviet republics. These decisions may not seem like much but for germany I think it's close to 1billion in revenue is generated from these NATO bases and I don't even think that accounts for the economies built around servicing these bases in the civilian areas. For France, losing all influence and say concerning NATO actions is certainly costly -- especially since they wish to become a dominant power in europe.
The United States is by far one of the most powerful nations in the world. However, we should use our might for right, not might for might.Quote:
Originally posted by Xei
I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.
Ok lets cut the story & intelect short .its simple.
We have a desolute nation under a dictator who oversee
and controls over what they do, wear, see, hear, say, think, believe, eat(believe me its true in some country 50 lashes for
eating pork by a moslem),,,,,,,,,.
Now you are a democratic power. what are your choices.
A__Have relations&trade with this bastd for profit. & thus legitimize his rule and ignore the wishes & dreams& suffering
of millions of its citizens.
Or
B__Ignore the dictator
or
C__Go in . demolish his tyranny & free its slaves . and force
feed its public with some basic rights .so they wont fall prey
to the next dictator that may come shopping.and as an added
bonus win some commercial contract for yourself.
United State chose option C. that was the most humane
decision coming from a so called imperialist power.
it is absolutley irrelevant as why (israeli pressure, oil, trade
, arms lobby ,,,,,,) she did it.
US by virtue of its actions alone in afghanistan/iraq has gained
the respect & admirations of millions over millions of hopeless freedom fighters around the globe.(including in my birth country
iran. which majority %90 are battling the regime rule through
student& youth daily demostration, thousands in jails& more
joining the political prisoners death row .).after bush,s threat
to mullahs, the youth have a new idol. he is called GW Bush.)
I am by no means a republican fan.and used to laugh at the
idiotic choice that the americans made for president(bush).
but We should judge ppl based on the merit of their action and not by their slogans.pre war bush was a joke icon.
look who is laughing now. :D he gained the respect of the
average citizen(not the idiot extremists you see on tv in some parts of the middle east)
(i still dont like cheney though)
try living under dictatorship for a year and pretty soon you
find that bush looks more & more like a cute angel of mercy.
those democratic countries pimping for dictators should change their ways or stay the hell out of the way of those nations
who look up to the so called "fat nation" for moral support.
>>US by virtue of its actions alone in afghanistan/iraq has gained
the respect & admirations of millions over millions of hopeless freedom fighters around the globe.(including in my birth country
iran. which majority %90 are battling the regime rule through
student& youth daily demostration, thousands in jails& more
joining the political prisoners death row
Right after the Taliban fell in afghanistan a reporter from ABC - I think from 20/20 - went to iran to just interview ppl. He walked around the streetz and talked to ppl in iran about how they felt about the US, and about their own govt.....
He was guarded with his questions to protect the ppl but all the youth said they want to have better relations with america and don't agree with the restrictive rulez of the mullaz -- and surprisingly some of them came up to him and when they felt there were no spies or minders around said openly that they wanted to see the same thing that america did for afghanistan in iran -- namely that 90% of the ppl would support an uprising backed by american air power and military support to overthrow the mullaz and retake their country.
-- I beleive this to be well after bush made his "axis of evil" speech but well before iraq2. I'm sure the feelings have shifted a bit as the iraq issue has stirred up alot of emotions -- but I think those types of issues don't change and the US is making the right decisions by intervening and lifting the oppresive veil from that region.
-- We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes... it is their mandated poverty and oppression that breedz these terrorists from the hate that these regimes are so eager to deflect from themselves and onto the US. The gainz we've made are immeasurable as we may never know what we have prevented by denying these regimes their breeding groundz for US hatred and these ppl can focus on bettering their own futures for once.
"We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes"
The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.
More people hate the US now and with greater conviction than before, that means in all likelyhood more people will sign up to be terrorists.
"is their mandated poverty and oppression that breedz these terrorists from the hate that these regimes are so eager to deflect from themselves and onto the US"
Iraq was not a fundamentalist Islamic state and does not appear to have many connections with the terrorism that the West so fears.
"The gainz we've made are immeasurable as we may never know what we have prevented by denying these regimes their breeding groundz for US hatred and these ppl can focus on bettering their own futures for once."
They are immeasurable and they may well be negative. Fundamentalist states (Iraq was not one) are breeding grounds for US hatred, but then so are non-fundamentalist states like Pakistan, its not the state that matters, its the people. And attacking Islam, which is what the US is percieved to be doing by the 3rd world Muslims, is exactly what people like Bin Laden need to swell their ranks.
> In communism everyone has a job -- that job being spying on your neighbors for the
> state. It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a
> lack of money.
So money makes you happy? I wonder if money makes happy, I think it leads in more cases to unhappiness than happiness.
The problem is, I think, the distribution of wealth. A few people are extremely rich, in ex-communistic countries usually those who had a high function in the government or who had a big company loyal to the communistic party, but most people were and are still poor. After the eastern European countries were freed of their dictators, they couldn't benefit from it. I think the western European countries should have done more for the eastern European countries. Give more support, less laws, trading rules and that kind of things which make it so hard for the eastern European countries to develop themselves and work together with western European countries.
It is not the problem that the eastern European people don't have money. The problem is dat we in the western world don't accept people having no money. We keep them away, but should support them.
> This lack of money can be solved and it doesn't require the loss of freedoms,
> socialism, nor communism.
How?
> For those who don't participate in their democracy to keep it a democracy, they will
> find themselves in the same position as I think Zimbabwee or some other country I
> read about Maldova or some country... this is where they had 1 vote 1 time and
> elected a dictator who promised socialist/communist benefits at the cost of freedoms
> and authoritative rule.
The situation in almost all, what we in the western world called, communistic countries was and is that they are not really communistic. The problem is that most of those countries have a dictator leading the country.
>> We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these
>> types of regimes
>
> The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will
> increase it.
Yes, I also think it will not prevent terrorism. Saddam Hussein was leader of a country, people like Osama Bin Laden are leaders of international networks which you can't fight the way you would do with a country. The US has shown it can topple the regime of a country quite easily, so those who want to fight they US will organise them more and more in international networks and operate from there. The world has still not shown to be able to fight terrorism, so I think more people who want to fight will enter terroristic organisations.
>>The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.
>>More people hate the US now and with greater conviction than before, that means in all likelyhood more people will sign up to be terrorists.
Where have these ppl been since 9/11 -- their feelings have never changed... I am willing to BET MONEY that u are wrong... u should read about those from jordan, syria, and sudan who came to iraq to fight a jihad against the US - their dream - they lost big and those who survived are actually begging the iraqi populace for money to GO HOME... In fact much of their anger has been deflected to their own mullaz who sent them with the promise of victory -- read about the same situation of the paki's who survived and walked home from afghanistan.
Osama Bin Laden said in a speech "America is very much weaker than the Russians"... it was a delusion that he believed and was tested when he got his ass whipped just like these jihad fighters -- the ppl who committed 9/11 were well todo suadi's who traveled the world before coming to the US to commit their act. The poor ppl of repressed countries and now the free ppl of iraq will not be signing up for bin laden's cuase as they have much more important things to concentrate on...
In point of fact for those who don't know, "Al-queda" means "The Base" and some are in fact arguing that this Base is really a name for a Database of names of former fighters in the afghanistan war against the soviets, an "international network" -- if u dissect the missions that Bin Laden has ordered and carried out all have been led by the ppl on this list of ppl who fought against the soviets -- today a large number of those ppl are dead or imprisoned in the US or elsewhere -- and the others are on the run being pursued by the US. The ppl who carry out the 9/11's of the world are few and far between and most come from places of unchecked militancy -- like Indonesia or Phillipines is where the next attackers will probably come from. Doing nothing is what breedz these terrorists.
as for the numbers of deaths, i still bet america has losed to many, especialy since we always seem to get involvd when a country like france gets its a$$ kicked(vietnam).
well we are one of the founders, were probally reserved this right to begin with, if not its all building and we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?Quote:
Did you know that for many years the United States refused to pay their UN dues on account that they were not treated fairly by the UN?
yeah, killing many members and scaring everyone that might of inlisted means more terrorists..........Quote:
The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.
well we are one of the founders, were probally reserved this right to begin with, if not its all building and we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?
Yes, because they are not addicted to it. And since when does founding something give a person the sole right to do whatever they want? and by the way, the US does not run the show in the UN-France, Russia, China, America, and the UK have permanent membership on the UN Security Council giving them the ability to veto the United States. I know that many people believe that the US runs the world (obviously many members on this Board do), but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system.
edit:
>>as for the numbers of deaths, i still bet america has losed to many, especialy since we always seem to get involvd when a country like france gets its a$$ kicked(vietnam).
As for France being beaten in vietnam, I seem to recall another 'western nation' suffering 66,000 casualties and not accomplishing anything for these losses...who could it be?
but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system
first of all in trhe us we learn nothing american, after all itrs always our falut for everything. plus how doesnt the us run the show? were the only real superpower. we develop it, they make it. they agree to the rules, we follow them and do something when there broken. look at what happened to the league of nations, it craped out because we werent there. some countries just cant(money,location current problems like revolts) other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).
the whole world isnt ant-us, but at times it seems like a big sized chunk.
The US used to be Isolationist, remember WW1 and WW2? You didn't become involved until you were directly attacked.Quote:
Originally posted by mart_man00
but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system
first of all in trhe us we learn nothing american, after all itrs always our falut for everything. plus how doesnt the us run the show? were the only real superpower. we develop it, they make it. they agree to the rules, we follow them and do something when there broken. look at what happened to the league of nations, it craped out because we werent there. some countries just cant(money,location current problems like revolts) other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).
the whole world isnt ant-us, but at times it seems like a big sized chunk.
Quote:
Originally posted by mart_man00
yeah, killing many members and scaring everyone that might of inlisted means more terrorists..........
Killing people, who arent terrorists in the first place only makes them hate you and wish to become terrorists, haven't you noticed how most of the terrorists on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, which happens to be somewhat of a protectorate of the United States. Kinda odd don't you think, that terrorists might come from a place where the fundamentalist government uses America to become rich and America does likewise, both disregarding the wishes of the people. Instilling fear in the people does not make them wish to be more like you, they will despise you, they will hate you. As a result of the American blunders in the Mideast they have been the "Victims" (or possibly not victims, since after all it is a form of retaliation against american absolutism) of several terrorist attacks. It goes with the saying, "If you play with fire, you're going to get burnt", America has been burnt now after their poor Mid-East foreign policy.
yeah, america always goes out of its way to make sure we kill as many civilians as humanly possibly. its our policy...........
if we take out 10 terrorists in a camp and kill 1 innocent janitor we did our job. no war will ever have no vivilain casualties, people need to realize it. we try to avoid it, better than most. even if we only have a minority of the people on our side atleast progress was made and we dont have to worry about them.
yes, fear could give them motovation or it could just make them stay home and dont blow anything up, would you prefer a tea party instead?
I can remember exactly one time the US saved a german ass, that was Berlin Blockade/Airlift. I cannot remember a single case the US helped any african country... maybe you can enlight us here.Quote:
other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).
I know it's hard to believe from your point of view, but Europe is not founded on dominance but on cooperation. And it wil hopefully stay this way.Quote:
especially since they [france] wish to become a dominant power in europe.
mart_man00
>>a bunch of basicly hillbillies with aks are angry, atleat the guy that could be a handfull and could do some real damge to us is gone. it will take a while but people will learn, atleast nothing can happen to us .
>>how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.
>>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.
>>we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?
mart_man00, you are an ignorant racist.
Specifically you believe that US money and might makes right. No matter who it harms.
Its Americans with attitudes like yours that give US travelers a bad name.
I hope you are just a teenage boy and have time to grow up. (males aged between 14 -> 18 are the most intolerant of any demographic)
>> well we are one of the founders,
Just one of 26 signatory members.
>>were probally reserved this right to begin with
No the US did not. It is only recently (under Rumsfelt) that the US foreign policy has gone to the extremes like The Hague Invasion Act (to avoid the International Criminal Court).
>> other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).
This is just incorrect. It shows your total ignorance.
>>the whole world isnt ant-us, but at times it seems like a big sized chunk.
And has no rational reason to try and kill US citizens, has it?
WHY DO YOU THINK THE TERRORISTS TARGET THE US?
This is the message your current administration is sending the world. On the leaked memo of the NSA spying on UN members to blackmail them into voting for a war in Iraq;
“To these countries the memo is just the latest example of the Bush Administration's disdain for their concerns. To them, the fact that the US is spying on their diplomats instead of talking with them is proof that the United States does not take them seriously.”
http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story...910360,00.html
>>I cannot remember a single case the US helped any african country... maybe you can enlight us here.
Liberia, Ethiopia, Somalia... maybe I should continue to list more -- I'm sure you'll be surprised of who exactly is on the payroll of the US - ie. there is a massive amount of money set aside just for that nation each and every budget year-- it includes almost every african nation with exception of a few -- Somalia as you may note is no longer on that list and the situation there is not that great but it doesn't discount that we have helped or tried to at least -- European nations like germany and france are so cash strapped or maybe I don't know the REAL reasons of why they don't do much at all to help these nations.
>>but Europe is not founded on dominance but on cooperation
Ohh, is that why France is leading a new competitor to NATO of which germany has signed on, more than a competitor - it's meant to be a replacement??? Almost all of the COOPERATIVE military projects between France, Germany, and Brittain have fallen behind and gone way over budget as France and Germany are both reluctant to come up with the funds to pay -- to live up to their commitments -- in this respect they have much more in common with russia -- and guess what France, Germany, and Russia have just got together to discuss this new alliance they are forming. Cooperation INDEED... at the expense of their old allies and friends especially Brittain.
>>(to avoid the International Criminal Court).
Hahaha, we'll never be a part of this BOGUS and useless court -- during the iraq2 war and even before the ICC has been besieged by thousands of petitions to charge the US, it's president(Bush), and the soldierz and commanderz with war crimes and other politically motivated charges -- all by the communist/anarchist/socialist/eurotard dumbSh$$$. That's exactly the reason given as to why we don't belong to this ICC as the court will be used to weild a political axe against america and americans. It seems that our predictions are so far correct.
>>As a result of the American blunders in the Mideast they have been the "Victims" (or possibly not victims, since after all it is a form of retaliation against american absolutism) of several terrorist attacks. It goes with the saying, "If you play with fire, you're going to get burnt", America has been burnt now after their poor Mid-East foreign policy.
You are right, our blunderz are to blame, since we are the only country with any kind of effective policy in the mid-east. The rest of europe, unfortunately including brittain were kicked out or pulled out of that region years and years ago. I can totally agree that it was a huge blunder for us to go into suadi arabia and liberate kuwait from saddam. Seriously, the only blunder we made was leaving our enemies with a sense that if u bloody our nose a bit we'll give up - like in somalia...
I always laugh when I hear "poor Mid-East foreign policy", the ppl who say this don't even know what they are talking about -- if u asked them to define what american foreign policy is and what about it is bad they can't say... Maybe it's our support for a government so we can have good relations with them -- I guess that's our blunder -- well we're adjusting and from now on it's a military first policy -- we'll kick some ass first and ask questions later.
OSR
Agriculture is the biggest industry in Sub Sahara Africa (contributing on average 30% of GDP) and is severely damaged by US and European subsidies and trade barriers. These US farm subsidies alone amount to $300million per year.
>>since we are the only country with any kind of effective policy in the mid-east.
Yes, give Israel huge quantities of guns.
This year US aid to the whole of Africa is less than $600m (down by $178m this year). In contrast US sent nearly $4 billion to Israel.
You didn’t mention Angola (oil), Nicaragua (overthrew the government, ran drugs) or Congo (diamonds).
Liberia:
After Liberia declared war on Germany in WW1 (its major trading partner) the US moved in. The US set up bases and supported Liberia because this helped its anti communist ideals.
Then as the US automobile industry took off, rubber was needed, Firestone moved in.
“The result was an agreement, supported by the U.S. government, that clearly disadvantaged Liberia: Firestone would lease one million acres for 99 years at the annual rate of $0.06 per acre; any gold, diamonds, or other minerals discovered on the land would belong to Firestone; and Liberia would accept a $5 million loan from Firestone for a 40-year period with which to settle all outstanding foreign loans, in effect taking on new debt to pay off old debt. The company made huge profits and enriched some of the Liberian elite, thus ensuring their support for the venture.”
>>during the iraq2 war and even before the ICC has been besieged by thousands of petitions to charge the US<<
So the US, the world’s policeman is above International Criminal Law?
The US is pretty happy to use these agreements for its own purpose then dump them when they don’t suit.
Look at Rumsfelt complaining that Iraq violated the Geneva Convention (showing POW’s on TV). No mention of the US violations of the Geneva Convention in Camp X-Ray.
Has the US let those children go yet? Has it charged them yet? Given them basic human rights?
i knew this was coming, i was just waiting for it.Quote:
mart_man00, you are an ignorant racist.
money doesnt matter, but when people with no money, house that are below tents and people that have probaly never seen electricty or anything made in that last centuries try to get involved it not right. while canadas money is droping, atleast they make something, not in chickens.
o yeah we broke so many laws. we just helped everything and everyone.Quote:
No the US did not. It is only recently (under Rumsfelt) that the US foreign policy has gone to the extremes like The Hague Invasion Act (to avoid the International Criminal Court).
look at how many wars the us ha been in and how many actually involved us?Quote:
This is just incorrect. It shows your total ignorance.
we only give huge amounts of money to them and send our military there (not canadas monkey and connoe military either). we only been trying to police the world forever now, even though we are the only one that will and the obly one that never seems to get any support when we need it.Quote:
And has no rational reason to try and kill US citizens, has it?
"we can count on the frnech we they need us" - i wish i knew how that was now. it good for a couple of countries.
hmm....only superpower left. if 9/11 was before the USSR went under it might of been them since there closer.Quote:
WHY DO YOU THINK THE TERRORISTS TARGET THE US?
ill finish this later, its getting long.
Where have they been? In their homes, living their lives. Their feelings haven't changed? The [neutral] reports i've read, and the muslims i've spoken to indicate the opposite.Quote:
Where have these ppl been since 9/11 -- their feelings have never changed...
Prior to 9/11 despite the Israel-Palestine conflict there was a certain amount of pro-Western feelings among many of the youth of the Middle-East, BUT post 9/11 US actions and rhetoric have been interpretted by many as AN ATTACK ON ISLAM, the implications of that interpretation cannot be stressed enough.
I would take that bet, how much do you actually understand of the mindset involved here? How many muslims have you actually spoken to?Quote:
I am willing to BET MONEY that u are wrong... u should read about those from jordan, syria, and sudan who came to iraq to fight a jihad against the US - their dream - they lost big and those who survived are actually begging the iraqi populace for money to GO HOME...
Plenty of people came to fight jihad against the US, why do you think that is? The whole point of jihad (in this context) is fighting a holy war against the attackers of Islam.
Sure they lost, you think that's going to stop more signing up?
If by "much" then you mean "a little" then i would agree.Quote:
In fact much of their anger has been deflected to their own mullaz who sent them with the promise of victory -- read about the same situation of the paki's who survived and walked home from afghanistan
Are you honestly trying to say that poor people are less likely to become terrorists than rich people!?Quote:
the ppl who committed 9/11 were well todo suadi's who traveled the world before coming to the US to commit their act. The poor ppl of repressed countries and now the free ppl of iraq will not be signing up for bin laden's cuase as they have much more important things to concentrate on... "
Poor people with a low quality of life have relatively little to lose and are also far more likely to be extremist, "Remove some of the cursed enemy, aid your people and your religion and you get an instant trip to Nirvana", that's pretty damn enticing if you have a .......... life.
You think the suicide bombers in Palestine are rich? You think the people who came over to fight Jihad against the US in Iraq and in Afghanistan were rich (no, they weren't terrorists but they illustrate that there are plenty of poor people out there willing to risk their lives fighting the US).
Continuing the staus quo might well breed terrorists, but then that's not doing 'nothing', that's doing a whole lot of things that ........ off the muslim community.Quote:
today a large number of those ppl are dead or imprisoned in the US or elsewhere -- and the others are on the run being pursued by the US. The ppl who carry out the 9/11's of the world are few and far between and most come from places of unchecked militancy -- like Indonesia or Phillipines is where the next attackers will probably come from. Doing nothing is what breedz these terrorists.
The more indiscriminant force used in retaliation against fundamentalist terrorists, the more people sign up to the terrorist cause, the more the terrorism escalates: look at the last 50 years in Israel, has force worked there?
Now having said all that, I believe that whether or not the US will gain from the invasion of Iraq is far from clear, whilst i certainly do not believe it will decrease the number of terrorists or 'would-be' terrorists out there, it 'may' have prevented terrorist organisations getting hold of the technology required to carry out the most devastating attacks.
And if it precipitates a serious attempt by the US to solve the Palestine-Israel conflict it could have a large postive effect on the anti-US feelings in the Middle East.
hmmm. i bet that was real neutral. by the way what muslims? are you one? do you live by some? where? when did you get this?Quote:
muslims i've spoken to
if were not handing over money its an attack. if we dont all convert its a insult. nothing new.Quote:
AN ATTACK ON ISLAM
what really has to happen is were need to stand up. we either say good by and not look back or we take control. its our money and our military. they are our threat. im not saying we should conquor the middle east (we probally could, and you could argue for it) but we havnt done alot untill bush came. while he does hold back atleast he speaks up. clinton was just a dumbass, but if he wanted a war it would of been over in a week and we would have nothing left(missle, bombs, bullets, if he talked more about his economy and how the internet had nothing to do with it a couple nukes).
the one part of all of this that i hate, if clinton we to say it would of been millions of yes sirs. but when bush says it, a man that isnt know a discrace to mankind says it it just a old republican whing.
>>>
hmmm. i bet that was real neutral. by the way what muslims? are you one? do you live by some? where? when did you get this?
<<<
Ever occur to you that in some sophisticated, open, non racist, non sectarian societies people could actually talk to each other?
Nah, thought not.
Jerk-o-meter warning - overload.
>>> if were not handing over money its an attack
Depends who you are handing the money too. Israel perhaps?
>>> if we dont all convert its a insult.
So let's convert them huh? After all, we're right, huh?
Hypocrit. Idiot.
>>Are you honestly trying to say that poor people are less likely to become terrorists than rich people!?
uhh, international terrorists, absolutely... there was a couple of bombings in suadi arabia just the other day but I'm fine with that -- if they are willing to kill 100 of their ppl to get 10 americans I would call the casualties acceptable -- these poor ppl don't travel outside of their own countries usually. All these poor ppl are funded by others -- and not by osama largely -- they get money from states like saddam's iraq, syria, iran, and wealthy individuals from suadi arabia and other oil wealthy mid-east ppl.
You take away their money and you take away the amount of poor ppl who will volunteer for terrorism -- after all these suicide terrorists in israel don't do it for ALLAH as they say - they do it b/c they have no hope and no money and when someone says that your family will get $25K for blowing yourself up it looks mighty appetizing -- they don't do it just for paradise -- money is wholly involved and cutting off that spiggot wherever it comes from is our NEW MANDATE... even if it means occupying that whole mid-east region.
>>How many muslims have you actually spoken to?
I've spoken to plenty here in the US but I speak to a dude who lives in Afghanistan quite regularly -- he used to live in the US and moved back after the war -- he lives in Kabul.
I also regularly keep tabs on the true Islam Media - www.kavkazcenter.com/eng - there you'll find what these jihadists are funding around the world.
>>And if it precipitates a serious attempt by the US to solve the Palestine-Israel conflict it could have a large postive effect on the anti-US feelings in the Middle East.
I think too much is made of the Palestinian-Israel conflict -- it is in everyone's interest for this to be solved -- but don't delude yourself into thinking that this put an end to the ambitions of Osama Bin Laden or the other Jihadists and their supporters around the world. The goals of Bin Laden and his supporters is to conquer the world in the name of islam - to create an islamic empire - and the ppl who give him money have the same agenda - it matters not that palestine lives in peace with israel, he simply uses it to galvenize support for himself and his real cuase.
>>hmmm. i bet that was real neutral. by the way what muslims? are you one? do you live by some? where? when did you get this?<<
What are you like? You mean to say you have never lived near any Muslims? I think maybe you should, then you might not hate them so much. I live next door to a Muslim family. Nice family. Son just finished his first year of an engineering degree and the daughter just joined the police force. I've lived with a Musilm too till last year, nice guy, used to help me with some of my maths.
"uhh, international terrorists, absolutely"
To plan acts of international terrorism on the scale of 9/11 requires a great deal of organisation and certainly a great deal of resources (although having said that as technology improves the potential for groups of people without great resources to do large amounts of damage increases), BUT to carry them out doesn't necessarily require anything but conviction.
"... there was a couple of bombings in suadi arabia just the other day but I'm fine with that -- if they are willing to kill 100 of their ppl to get 10 americans I would call the casualties acceptable"
That is an appauling statement.
" All these poor ppl are funded by others -- and not by osama largely -- they get money from states like saddam's iraq"
All the reports i have seen have said there has been no real evidence showing Iraq to be involved in international terrorism.
"You take away their money and you take away the amount of poor ppl who will volunteer for terrorism"
"money is wholly involved and cutting off that spiggot wherever it comes from is our NEW MANDATE... even if it means occupying that whole mid-east region"
Wiping out the people responsible for funding is no easy task, if the US started attacking multiple Middle-Eastern countries the anti-US feelings invoked could have dire consequences:
In Iraq despite anger by many that the US was invading the public had no love for Saddam either, but what if the US were to invade a country where the people didn't hate the state in fact they were willing to give their lives to defend it, how would you take a city filled with an army of plain clothed snipers, hidden among hostile public whilst getting hit by suicide bombers, without sustaining major casualities or killing vast numbers of the local populace?
If anti-US feelings keep on increasing we could start seeing small scale suicide attacks within the US, that could lead to almost total Us enforced US-Middle-Eastern segregation.
Further more you have no guarantee new backers of terrorism will not spring up. If you invade one of these states and then try and set up a democracy, if pro-Islam anti-US sentiments are strong they will immediately elect a fundamentlist government who will then start behaving exactly the same way as the government previously removed.
.... These are not good scenarios.
"I've spoken to plenty here in the US but I speak to a dude who lives in Afghanistan quite regularly -- he used to live in the US and moved back after the war -- he lives in Kabul."
Fair enough, guess we have different experiences then.
"I think too much is made of the Palestinian-Israel conflict "
I don't think enough is made it.
"it is in everyone's interest for this to be solved "
Agreed.
"don't delude yourself into thinking that this put an end to the ambitions of Osama Bin Laden or the other Jihadists and their supporters around the world"
It will decrease anti-US feelings in the middle-East, they are the reason people like Bin Laden exist.
"The goals of Bin Laden and his supporters is to conquer the world in the name of islam - to create an islamic empire - and the ppl who give him money have the same agenda - it matters not that palestine lives in peace with israel, he simply uses it to galvenize support for himself and his real cuase."
Bin Laden went nuts because of the US military presence in Saudi Arabia, whilst these people would certainly love to see an Islamic world as far as i can see the reason they are willing to die fighting the US is because they believe their religion is under attack. How does flying a plane into a building and killing a load of civillians make an Islamic world more likely?
If its about an Islamic state why now? and why the US? and why suicide bombers?
The key to understanding these terrorists is to realise they believe that they are the good guys and that you are the bad guys.
"hmmm. i bet that was real neutral. by the way what muslims? are you one? do you live by some? where? when did you get this?"
Bigoted MUCH?
yeah the middle east is like a mile away from the us, i wind up there when i get lost all the time.Quote:
Ever occur to you that in some sophisticated, open, non racist, non sectarian societies people could actually talk to each other?
first person to actually come up with something and not whin, nice.Quote:
Israel perhaps?
people here are mostly catholic or some form of christian. yeah im sure there plenty in the us, but theres alot of mexicans here to. dont you expect more to be by the border? i wouldnt be kind of kool actualy, but i bet most of them that come here would seem more american that arab. can any one say anything about that? muslims/arabs in the thread? hearing it from a muslim/arab would actually mean something, the rest of us are basicly speculating(except for facts).Quote:
You mean to say you have never lived near any Muslims?
Clyde, almost all of what you said could be used for Hitler. the nazis loved him, they would die for him, alot did die for him. when other countries got involved im sure the nazis werent happy and willing to join up. did you oppose "operation german freedom".
sure alot of germans resent us, that just becuase there ungrateful cowards.
"Clyde, almost all of what you said could be used for Hitler. the nazis loved him, they would die for him, alot did die for him. when other countries got involved im sure the nazis werent happy and willing to join up. did you oppose "operation german freedom"."
What on Earth are you talking about?
Wow, I am an American, and think this is really bad. I hope people from foreign countries realize 2 things:
1) Idiots like martman are not the majority here. They are just the most vocal, as the idiots usually are.
2) Most Americans are not happy with a lot of things that our country does. What our country does is not always supported by the people of our country. People ought to differentiate between government and people of a nation.
:)Quote:
Originally posted by golfinguy4
Wow, I am an American, and think this is really bad. I hope people from foreign countries realize 2 things:
1) Idiots like martman are not the majority here. They are just the most vocal, as the idiots usually are.
2) Most Americans are not happy with a lot of things that our country does. What our country does is not always supported by the people of our country. People ought to differentiate between government and people of a nation.
Ok, After reading various misinformed total bull$$$$ posted by mart_man00 and OneStifRod (I think his name and use of grammar/spelling alone indicate the level of intelligence this person has) I wished momentarily for some way to sever these kind of people from society until it occured to me they are probably posting from a computer in some prison or other federal institution. As for Clyde and Novocaine I agreed with most of what you had to say. I wish to add a couple things mainly directed at the two idiots forementioned and anyone who can sniff enough glue to view the world in the same way as them. The revised American form of Imperialism is one they are using by installing puppet governments in various states and plucking their strings to do things that are economically beneficial to America, regardless of the consequences it may have for their neighbours in the world. They attempt to mask this all the time, using excuses such as : we have sent troops in for "Peacekeeping reasons" to set up a new government that acts in the best interests of the people. Bull$$$$, unless they mean the american people by those they wish to help. What they really mean is : Hi, we're here to strip your land of its resources so we can make a buck! If you speak out against this, we'll crush you with our "Peace keeping force". MartManoo is an idiot, he believes American power is supreme, that it will conquer all. Can he not heed the lessons of history? No empire that attempted to impose its wishes on those of another people has ever survived. In this process you make too many enemies and not enough friends, somewhat like America does today by trying to make three or four powerful friends and telling everyone else to ........ off. The other problem many Americans (not all, just most) seem to have is that they are very poorly informed when speaking globally. They actually believe the nonsense their government feeds them. Americans have such an active role in the globe they should have an idea what the decisions they make do to people elsewhere. The world will not forever do nothing in the face of American belligerence, and it already has and will just continue to take a stance against. It is only so long people can put up with their superficial "America's Burden".
And another thing, what is America doing for all the other suffering people in the world? People in chechnya, africa, or east europe? If your American take a close look at how your country acts and really consider whether the United States is at blame for many of the worlds problems.
One more thing, with this kind of American arrogance and hostility how can you blame others for hating them?
America should revert to the foreign policy of Theodore Roosevelt, that is he said "Walk softly and carry a big stick". This means have the power to push your weight if necessary but dont just go treading heavily everywhere, ........ing everyone off.
>>If your American take a close look at how your country acts and really consider whether the United States is at blame for many of the worlds problems.
I think manifesto has done an excellent summation case for the idiot side here... I won't challenge further as it's obvious this person and others are lacking brain cells or common sense. He doesn't even have the guts to register here so it's no use... sum ppl are just stupid. --
>>The world will not forever do nothing in the face of American belligerence, and it already has and will just continue to take a stance against.
Ok this is fine, i am totally fine with this, if that's how you feel you pick up your gun and ill pick up mine and we'll meet on the battlefield my friend... you obviously feel this is what it will come down to -- so let's do it F**!tard...
Ohh and I'm sure that manifesto would believe any and all info given to him by the former soviet union and the iraqi "Baghdad Bob" over anything the US says as we are constant liarz... what a dumbsh$$t...
Again OSR demonstrates how the US reacts to criticism.
With threats and violence.
>>What our country does is not always supported by the people of our country. People ought to differentiate between government and people of a nation.<<
“government of the people, by the people, for the people” Lincoln
You elected the government as your representative, at least you had a choice unlike many other countries. Since fewer than 50% of eligible US voters actually vote, under 40% in some elections, they get what they deserved.
A government of the people, bought by the corporations, for the special interests…….
mart_man00
>>i knew this was coming, i was just waiting for it.<<
The difference between a child and an adult is the ability to moderate your behavior when it is unacceptable.
mart_man00
>>money doesnt matter, but when people with no money, house that are below tents and people that have probaly never seen electricty or anything made in that last centuries try to get involved it not right.<<
A persons worth is not based on the value or age of their material possessions. (not to mention last century was only a few years ago)
Is there really such a cultural and educational desert in the US that you can not realize this?
(It is obvious that you have never experienced the world outside the US. Perhaps when you do you will learn some tolerance and gain some understanding)
>>(It is obvious that you have never experienced the world outside the US. Perhaps when you do you will learn some tolerance and gain some understanding)
I can't tolerate TOLERANCE:o
>>> I can't tolerate TOLERANCE
We noticed.
how many times do i have to say it, it doesnt matter how much money you make as long as you make money. if a average person cant tell the difference between you and some ancient tribe or the egyptions thousand of year ago you shouldnt be any where near the un and you should shut up about this kind of stuff.
when ever some one dies agree to something and he a republican(or just not a democrat) hes enventually called a racists. it no surprise. insteed of trying to talk about it or just admint something they just pull out the race card and wonder why theres some many "racists". these people were right, a couple decades ago, now its just bull. if anything they have a advantage now which isnt right. if it cant be equal the people that are actually decendants of the people that founded the us should have a better deal. and of course, i know its coming again since somethings never change. to bad not alot of minorties step up, especialy since they dont like it much either.Quote:
The difference between a child and an adult is the ability to moderate your behavior when it is unacceptable.
"if a average person cant tell the difference between you and some ancient tribe or the egyptions thousand of year ago you shouldnt be any where near the un and you should shut up about this kind of stuff."
A people's voice in determining their own future should not be dependent on how advanced the 'average' (and rather ignorant) US citizen deems their society.
"these people were right, a couple decades ago, now its just bull. if anything they have a advantage now which isnt right"
So you're saying racism no longer exists?
"if it cant be equal the people that are actually decendants of the people that founded the us should have a better deal"
Yea right racism doesn't exist: you believe that people who are descendents of "the people that founded the US" should be treated better! So people should be treated based on........ *drum role* RACE. Guess what that makes you?
>sure alot of germans resent us, that just becuase there ungrateful cowards.
Can you name at least one ?
i never said they shouldnt bever had control of there own future. but if somehow every country in the would got to gather on on issue and some trube thats not even on a map objects it shouldnt matter. they have other thing to worry about first.Quote:
A people's voice in determining their own future should not be dependent on how advanced the 'average' (and rather ignorant) US citizen deems their society.
minority man kills white man with axe for a couple hours: minority a couple yearsQuote:
Yea right racism doesn't exist: you believe that people who are descendents of "the people that founded the US" should be treated better! So people should be treated based on........ *drum role* RACE. Guess what that makes you?
white man kills minority man after he broke in: same if noth longer sentance.
that is wrong. idealy it shouldnt matter, but now its leaning to the left, if we have to lean, it should be towards the right. it doesnt mean its right but if thatw they way they want it(leaning).
and for anyone complaing about my example i have a case for you to look up. a black woman ran over a white man, guess
what she did? nothing! he stayed in her windshield for days and he slowly died because she wouldnt call for help. it didnt even make the news. if it were that other way around there would be some many riots it wouldnt even be funny. this is what ........es me off. this goes on all the time. listen to what a black man on tv has to say about it odds are he will say complete bull. ask a normal black man on a streat and it will probally be the opposite. and of cource guess who gets the air time.
the no more racism remark, how many slaves do you own? your neighbors? it time that end it with the slaves and deal with some real issues. of course there are racists people, but not ever one is.
how about my 2 favs, france and germany. may fav for the french is the veitnam war. they could keep this contry under control so we had to get incolved. it was there probelm but falf the people that actually took charge(not just the infantry stye people but snipers or the elite forces) were either american or austrilan. germany, hitler, berlin wall. enough said. im sure any one could come up with more examples for my 2 countries and probally a couple others.Quote:
Can you name at least one ?