XML and database ??

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03-28-2003
mellisa

XML and database ??

My goodness I have a debate soon about how " XML database should and will replace traditional database " !

And we 're on the positive side ... but personally I don 't even agree with that ! That 's like saying, plane and car will replace train !!

But the main problem is I 'm clueless about XML and database, like Native XML database and all that !. Trying really hard to research but too much new infọ is being thrown at mẹ.. m totally lost people !

So if anyone 's familiar with XML being used as a database and the advantages of it , please help out , probably just to point me in the right direction of where to start putting this debate together, thanx :)
03-29-2003
Waldo2k2

I see only one advantage of XML db over any other database, and that's the ease in which it can be translated into a web page. There is a time saving factor when using XSL stylesheets with some sort of server side language to dish out info in the form of web pages. If we're talking just storage, or transmission of data across networks not to a client, then xml is bad. The reason for that is that it's bloated data, sure it describes itself but for what purpose? XML is a pipe dream, the original purposes for it's development will never come to light because of it's bloatedness. I recommend an SQL db, it can even rival the server to client speed that an xml db has when used with php, which can parse SQL db's quickly and format the output to a web page easily. It's also much much less bloated, making it better for server to server transmission.

Anything else?
03-29-2003
mellisa

huhuhu

We're gonna get our asses kicked on this debate ! =)
03-29-2003
ober

Umm... maybe I'm way off on this one, but XML is a markup language, it cannot and to my knowledge never has been used as a DB... it is simply a vehicle for retrieving and displaying information, it cannot store it.
03-29-2003
Waldo2k2

Well it can be used as a DB. See, XML files can be as big as you want, holding as much information as you want, but the rule is they have to be very very structured, and describe all their data. Basically, you could make:

Code:

<customers> <customer name="Bob Roberts"> <phone number="5554567" /> </customer> </customers>

essentially you could put all your customers (or whatever data you need) in that XML file. Then you can use a simple C or Java app to parse everything out (ie: Xerces).

So yes and no Ober on whether it can be used as a DB. It can be used to work like a DB, but not in the traditional sense.

and BTW XSL and other sister languages do the retrieving and displaying, XML just describes.
03-29-2003
ober

yeah, but how f-ing inefficient would it be to hold all your information in an XML file? Talk about slow search times...
03-29-2003
RoD

>>So yes and no Ober on whether it can be used as a DB. It can be used to work like a DB, but not in the traditional sense.

Not even in a productive sense.
03-29-2003
mellisa

Talk about a biased topic !

Waldo2k2 - so are you saying if we want to store 30 customers, we have to manually type 30 of these into a XML file ?

Code:

<customers> <customer name="Bob Roberts"> <phone number="5554567" /> </customer> </customers>

omg, I'm definitely on the wrong team but we were assigned that topic anyway, no choice !!

Displaying, searching and all that is all good but the question is .... user definitely CANT write to a XML database right ?
03-30-2003
Waldo2k2

no no no mellissa, you're thinking too much like a user and not a programmer.
See, you wouldn't have to manually type all that in. The user enters their information in some sort of form (either in a web page or through a program) and the program or web script writes to the file. Simply done, i've done it, it's no different than writing to any other text file. It can be done, but i don't see the point of using xml database, im assuming you wanted to pick it up simply because it's one of the new buzzwords, am I right?
03-30-2003
TravisS

Re: Talk about a biased topic !

Quote:

Originally posted by mellisa
Waldo2k2 - so are you saying if we want to store 30 customers, we have to manually type 30 of these into a XML file ?

Code:

<customers> <customer name="Bob Roberts"> <phone number="5554567" /> </customer> </customers>

omg, I'm definitely on the wrong team but we were assigned that topic anyway, no choice !!

Displaying, searching and all that is all good but the question is .... user definitely CANT write to a XML database right ?

Waldo already explained the way it would work in the real world, but if you were doing "backend" type work on this "database" there would be a little less work. And by a little, I mean very little.

Code:

<customers> <customer name="Bob Roberts"> <phone number="5554567" /> </customer> <customer name="Jack Black"> <phone number="5559427" /> </customer> <customer name="Nora Gree"> <phone number="5551234" /> </customer> </customers>

Would be an example of the way the database would go. It's kinds ugly, but really it makes sense. I wouldn't find this be be an efficient or practical database though. Though I haven't started yet, I'm probably going to make a web-centric database. Basically, nearly every function of a standard database function will be implemented. You can add a table, add referential integreties, delete stuff, so on and so forth all over the internet on a webpage.

Now, while this isn't going to be restrictive over the type of database, I just can't imaging using XML for a database. I mean, sure it would work, I think, but there is just SO many abilities that standard databases and SQL already have by default that I just can't imagine XML having without a lot of extra work.

Good luck, but I don't think there's any good strong reason that XML would be the better choice. Argue the fact that it's self descriptive and very easily web based as much as you can :p
03-30-2003
mellisa

hmmm...

.....
03-30-2003
adrianxw

>>> was meant to be in my other post

And now it is!
03-30-2003
mellisa

hmmm...

Waldo2k2

I didn't pick it , it's one the debate topics I HAVE TO DO ! I guess I'm very new to XML ... so please correct me if I'm wrong (something you've done quite well :) )

XML database provides:

- Storage (xml document)
- Schemas (DTDs)
- Query languages (XQuery, XPath - this includes: write to, display, sort, update? )

TravisS

I've done a web-based database already and I definitely agree that traditional database makes heaps more sense and we're going crazy over this stupid debate because first of all ... I don't even AGREE with it and the worst is ... I am so new to XML ... urghh.

I am TRYING to dig out as many XML's database ADVANTAGES as possible so we have some sortta chance of staying alive through this debate !

BUT so far, all I can see you guys doing is listing its DISADVANTAGES ! :)
03-30-2003
TravisS

Re: hmmm...

Quote:

Originally posted by mellisa

I am TRYING to dig out as many XML's database ADVANTAGES as possible so we have some sortta chance of staying alive through this debate !

BUT so far, all I can see you guys doing is listing its DISADVANTAGES ! :)

LOL, sorry :p The big things about XML is of course the self-descriptive datatypes and seperation of data and interface.

I suppose those would both be a little bit of an advantage in a database, but wouldn't you say a standard Access database already has these features? I would.

http://www.fawcette.com/xmlmag/2002_...on/default.asp
http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/XMLData...mlanddatabases

Those are just two links that have pretty good information. You probably already have them, but if you don't, they're pretty descriptive :)
03-30-2003
mellisa

aww thanx

that's more like it hehe, people should follow your example and start contributing more resources :D

Seriously thanx alot, the 2nd one I've already got but the first one is REALLY useful, thanx again.... (though we'll still lose :))