I will.
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I will.
Love you, stealth. God be with you.
Just out of high school in 1963, I signed up for the navy.
They wouldn't have me, though--I didn't know it at the
time but I'm hard of hearing. I'm 1-y, emergency call-up
only.
rick barclay
Thanks rick, I appreciate that.
I will NOT sign up to fight. Albeit, I'm only 16, but if I was old enough, I'd vie for jail time. I don't beleive in fighting. Call me a communist or whatever but I just don't beleive killing other people will solve ANYTHING. It'll just make things worse.
Plus, like Rick, I'm hard hearing. I'm legally deaf in one ear, so....
As I sit here looking at my computer screen, I pause and take off my glasses and can no longer bring the screen into focus to read the words, This ocupled with a complete lack of any skill in aiming, (eben at computer keys in would seem) and my general lack of fitness means that its probably for the best all round that I didn't see front line service. If\when it comes to it I will have nothing but the highest respect and admiration for those who do.
Not knowing a lot about military organisation, what kind of non-combatant roles exist? What can those who would like to help do if combat isn't an option for them?
Further tests show that I need to have the monitor 8 inches away from eyes in order to be able to read the screen without my glasses on.
Rob, I'm almost positive there are lots of non-fighting military roles you can play. I've seen those goarmy comericials and they show this one guy that fixes/maintains computers. That's all he does.
>Further tests show that I need to have the monitor 8 inches away from eyes in order to be able to read the screen without my glasses on.<
Hehe, my friend (he's blind in one eye) has to have paper or the monitor or basically anything 8 inches away with his glasses on to see. His vision is terrible.
hello? do you guys really want war??? or you think you'll be safe wherever you are??? just incase you didn't know that Afghanistan got nuclear weapons so if you started war that will cause more innocent people to die in both Afghanistan & the U.S actually all over the world! get real people! :mad:
We're did you hear this? Afghanistan is barely a nation state. There's hardly any government there at all. They have no nuclear capability at all. Are you thinking of Pakistan?Quote:
just incase you didn't know that Afghanistan got nuclear weapons
If war is necessary to defend our way of life and our country then SO BE IT!! What to you suggest we do? Sit down and dicuss. Work things out. These people are blinded by a deep hatred of the United States. They want no comprimise. They have declared a holy war against us. More people are going to die regardless of what we're going to do...Can't you see that? They're already at war with us. You don't think the free world should do everything in it's power to stop them?Quote:
if you started war that will cause more innocent people to die in both Afghanistan & the U.S actually all over the world! get real people!
I'm truely worried about this so called "resolve" i've been hearing so much about. Our goal of a world free from terrorism surely will cost lives. That's what's called a sacrifice. Our grandfathers and fathers made sacrifices in World War II. They understood they're duty. It seems many Americans these days aren't willing to sacrifice too much for they hold dear. They take it for granted. I think American life is something to fight for. If necessary i will die for it. Militant islam is prepared to die for their cause. If we are not, tragedy will haunt us forever.
mxr
i'm not saying do nothing but what i'm trying to say is war aint good just find the people that did that & punish them not the entire world
I am only 14
I would if I could, but I can't so I won't
For all you folks who choose not to sign up to fight---that's no
problem. As a child of the sixties, many hippies (and others, I
might add) ran off to Canada and other safe havens as a matter
of principle to avoid fighting in a war that was clearly unjust and
unAmerican.
Today, we're faced with a different kind of war that will be fought
no matter what we people here decide to do. If you are an
American you can contribute to the struggle in other ways
besides going off to fight. All I would ask is that you stick
around, if possible, and contribute something to help. If you
cannot, whatever your reasons are, then you can't. I for one
won't hold it against you. I really can't imagine this thing playing
out as a conventional war. There's nothing conventional about
the tactics of our enemy. Like Vietnam, there will be much
posturing by the enemy complaining about how America dosen't
play fair but massacres little children and their mothers and
old defenseless men. So, we'll certainly start by using our
air power and where we go from there is anybody's guess.
Surgical strikes. Short occupations of certain cities or remote
mountain areas. Can we team up with the Russians? Highly
unlikely, even though it's more in Russia's interest what we're
doing than our own. China? Out of the question. They'll sell
us their crappy excuses for merchandise and make a bundle
and damn us to hell while we look the other way. Japanese
will thank the Sun God their Constitution forbids their participation in
foreign wars. India? India's an interesting case. They are
Pakistan's sworn enemy. They have many, many, many assets
and people working in this country and Canada. We need the
Indians on our side. I see no reason why they shouldn't be
willing to help us strategically fight this war. Pakistan? I have no
idea. One thing I've learned as a human being is to respect and
cherish my friends and ignore those who show no liking for me.
We should do the same as a nation. Until they prove otherwise,
all muslim nations should at least secretly be considered enemy--
this includes Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, all of Africa.
When the war is over maybe we can be friends. Europe? Has
already invoked Article 5 of the NATO Treaty, so I would assume
they're on our side for the duration, which was definitely not
the case during Vietnam. Canada?:) --they dislike Americans,
some to the point of hate, but they'll join us, because our
memory is as good or better than theirs. Same goes for
Mexico. Central and South America? They'll cooperate--and step
up cocaine production. It is critical at this time, in my humble,
uninformed opinion, for us to close our borders with Mexico
and Canada until we know it is safe to allow foreign traffic to
flow into this country again. I also think we should actively pursue
illegal aliens in this country and ship them back where they came from.
All Middle Easterners should be monitered as closely as possible,
as closely as the Germans and Japanese were during WWII. If we
are serious about winning this war, we should treat all potential
enemies as probationary citizens until it is safe to ignore them.
This is something we don't want to do and find reprehensible to
our principles, but it is in everyone's interest, theirs included,
to make sure a repeat of this week's horror is never again.
When the war is over and we have won, we might even show
some special recognition to our eastern Americans for their
understanding, cooperation, and special sacrifice. But we must
as a nation tighten up our home defenses, because that is
where we have been most vulnerable and hit most often. We
look like fools right now. Imagine training the terrorists right
here in America to fly the planes that destroyed so many lives!
Hijacking the planes with knives and boxcutters! These aren't
the Germans of 1939 we're fighting here, these are street urchins
who took advantage of us!--hustlers! We were hustled by these
miserable lice. But we have to be more careful.
rick barclay
Thanks Rick. I'm glad you respect my decision. A lot of people would call me un-patriotic. That's not it. I just don't beleive in killing _any_one. Although, I guess I wouldn't mind helping in other ways like maintaining computers like I mentioned earlier...
Nice article Rick. I especially agree about closing our borders for the time being. Those are by far our weakest points. The Canadian border is espeically weak (no offense to anyone Canadian) simply because we trust the Canadians and therefore have an unguarded border.
If I did end up in the armed forces, I would much rather be there for technical support instead of front-line action.
Well its good to see that people would be willing to help, if not necessarily in combat.
Anyone who thinks there won't be a war is kidding themselves (no offence). I don't want it to happen, but it looks as though it will anyway.
I couldn't have said it better myself.Quote:
If war is necessary to defend our way of life and our country then SO BE IT!! What to you suggest we do? Sit down and dicuss. Work things out. These people are blinded by a deep hatred of the United States. They want no comprimise. They have declared a holy war against us. More people are going to die regardless of what we're going to do...Can't you see that? They're already at war with us. You don't think the free world should do everything in it's power to stop them?
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
I'd would sign up but I don't know what I would do.
I mostly would not fight do to medical reasons and by the time I turned 18 I think computers would be unused. I just don't want to collect food.
I would not sign up voluntarily, but if I was drafted, I would definitely go. Even if I did not believe in the cause that we were going to war for, I would still go if I were drafted because it is simply my duty to go as a citizen when drafted. And I would do my best while out there.
I would
not old enough yet, but I would
I can't believe half of you!
what! too scared to fight against someone who has wronged you?
damnit! you have had your freedom handed to you all your life and when you a threatened in those freedoms you make excuses!
think about,
take one good long moment and think about it!:mad:
you don't have to fight, just be willing!
the other half, well
that is what I like to here!:)
i don't know how to react to all this. for some reason my patriotism is relatively high, probably from what the general mood has been around school and on the television. in principle i wouldn't want to fight, but part of me says to do it if a draft ever got reinstated. this is interesting. in the end, i will not have voted on this poll...
[i should make a new disclaimer about my involvement in future war: lack thereof opinion...]
If I was drafted, I'd go, and I'd take no prisoners. I don't care if it is man, woman, or child, those afghans were celebrating our attack, and shall be reprimanded for it. I point everybody to go read the Aesop fable about the Drummer in the Army.
It's simple, d.a.. Thanks to Osama, we're climbing out from
under our post Vietnam funk back into the sunlight of a
positive attitude about our country. We just have to be careful
and make sure this isn't an hallucination. We are still the
Microsoft of the world and the object of much condemnation
from both within and out of the country. To give you a painful
example: my favorite internet radio station--bluesboy.com
which is located in Maine is giving regular weather reports
for Kabul! I may be reading it wrong; I may be reading it right;
but something stinks very foul in my mind about that.
But out of Tuesdays nightmare has come a weird feeling good
about ourselves attitude brought on partly from worldwide
sympathy over what has happened. It's a brief respite from
our self-perception that we are the world's whipping boy, a
feeling of low self esteem brought on by feeling responsible
for all the world's ills. Don't be fooled by the good feeling. It won't
last. There's an extremely tough road ahead of us. We need
to stay angry for as long as we possibly can. That will keep us
vigilant. Too proud and patriotic and we'll lose sight of our
true objectives. We'll become complacent once again and
revert to our pre-war attitude. That's no good. It'll lead us
into another Vietnam-like era, which is what the enemy is
counting on happening. There is nothing glorious in all this
back-thumping and breast-beating. We have to show the
world and ourselves as well that we mean to carry this
through to the end, which may be a long, long way off. It's
nigh time to hunker down and track down our prey and
slay him. Then we celebrate and feel good; not before. Make
sure you know who your friends are.
rick barclay
It's simple funk
I may be reading it wrong; I may be reading it right
the good feeling
to stay angry for as long as we possibly can
you know who...
hmmm... seems to me like i've never heard the idea like that so well expressed without five others jumping on the chance to complain...
I think people will be angry for quite a while yet. Everytime I hear about it, my blood boils.
ps to da - sorry about before - just that someone the other day said something about their account being hacked or something. no harm, no foul right?
no harm nor foul... really? when was this? can you give me a link? that is a major concern... wow... report to the webmaster at once!
As to the quwstion of signing up to fight, I would not have a choice since I am still in a reserve unit (Mechanized Infantry, so I would be on the front line). I have been involved in the invasion of Panama and the Gulf War. From my experiences, I can tell you that combat is not as glamorous as is portrayed in movies. Soldiers want peace more than anyone else, because we know that when peace can not be obtained, it will be us that will need to sacrifice.
This occasion though is very different. So many civilians have been sacrificed that it is no longer the soldiers who are trained for combat that are being killed. In this war we have no defined front line. This puts everyone on the front line. Oh, for those of you who would go but would rather do some support role, for every soldier in the US Army on the front line, there are 17 soldiers in a support role, so figure the odds of where you would be. As for CollegeGirls comment about nuclear weapons, I have additional training in protection against nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. If I had to choose which one I would rather be used on me, I would choose nuclear, it is easier to survive than chemical or biological weapons. But for the enemy that we will be facing, biological weapons are the easiest for them to obtain, and the hardest to protect against.
Most likely, my brother will be activated in about three months, I expect to be actvated within a year. My 13 year old son has already told me that he wants to join when he is old enough. I just pray that this is over before he is old enough to join. I will fight to get this over with so that my son does not have to carry on this fight, and that all five of my children will be able to live in a world with out fear.
>Soldiers want peace more than anyone else, because we know that when peace can not be obtained, it will be us that will need to sacrifice.
i agree completely... and i suppose that's supposed to be an irony since i don't have your experience, but nonetheless...
oh, and that was a great first post, you probably have a clean record on the thoughtfulness on your posting so far. i know mine wouldn't be for sure... raise my decaying average if you can eh? :p
Good Luck and God Bless you sigma, your family, and all of our troops.
>able to live in a world with out fear.
patriotism rises... [insert kermi3s emphasis here...]
hey rick...i think that we should have more politicians like you...
you know....closer to world peace...
my god man! and you are 60 years old?
i feel sorry for the fanatics.
he [he being rick] is 54... unless his birthday passed without him telling us... and i agree, more people whose positive qualities echo those of ricks would be welcomed by me... go rick yeah!
I second that.Quote:
Originally posted by kermi3
Good Luck and God Bless you sigma, your family, and all of our troops.
I have a high school freshman boy at home
who I'm thinking about the same way sigma does about
his son.
It's a little sad to say, but my two boys who are or will be
military elegible are complete mysteries to me as far as what
they see for themselves in the future. I guess its time for me
to do a little prying and try to find out where their heads are
at re all this.
rick barclay
I'm 58 ehsiq an d.a., but I was once the same age as just
about everyone else who comes to this board. :)
rick barclay
yes i know rick...still i believe that as old as you get, you get to be
more wise...not happenig to you though.
and doubleanti...of course you understand that i was ironic to
rick...about the politic...
if rick was the president of the U.S.A. he would have started
nuclear war.
>I can't believe half of you!
what! too scared to fight against someone who has wronged you?<
Scared? LOL, hardly. I'm not scared of getting killed, bro'. I just don't want to kill anyone.
And another thing, no one wronged me personally on Tuesday. They wronged the nation and the people directly affected, but they didn't wrong me. Without the media, I would have never heard what was going on.
hmm I was wondering why Asimov quit Mensa andQuote:
yes i know rick...still i believe that as old as you get, you get to be
more wise...not happenig to you though.
then later rejoined.
what? isaac asimov was MENSA member?
Why you old buggerer, you. And I mistook your sarcasm forQuote:
Originally posted by ehsiq
yes i know rick...still i believe that as old as you get, you get to be
more wise...not happenig to you though.
and doubleanti...of course you understand that i was ironic to
rick...about the politic...
if rick was the president of the U.S.A. he would have started
nuclear war.
a compliment :confused:. Mercy on me!
Me--start a nuclear war? What utter nonsense. Do you always
post when you're drunk?
Hey!!! The joiners are gaining on the non-joiners! Pretty soon
we'll have enough to form a cprogramming platoon! Anybody
here know how to program a nuke?
rick barclay
if I'n not mistaken you are part of this country, whatever has been done to the country will always indirectly done to you and therefore affect you either directly or indirectly!Quote:
Originally posted by Hillbillie
>I can't believe half of you!
what! too scared to fight against someone who has wronged you?<
Scared? LOL, hardly. I'm not scared of getting killed, bro'. I just don't want to kill anyone.
And another thing, no one wronged me personally on Tuesday. They wronged the nation and the people directly affected, but they didn't wrong me. Without the media, I would have never heard what was going on.
Yeah that's for sure. My dad is a Vietnam Veteran, and he has told be some awful stuff about his experiences as an infantry soldier. I would still fight though, as I couldn't just sit back and let the world go to **** while I am at home doing nothing. I don't think I could live with myself.Quote:
From my experiences, I can tell you that combat is not as glamorous as is portrayed in movies.
Hey Rick, were you being sarcastic when you wrote the little article on the first page of this thread?
If you were serious, :(
Wise words from a man of peace, Ghandi:
An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind
Yea! Our own platoon! Maybe we could convince the military to put us all in the same platoon if we all get drafted...Quote:
Hey!!! The joiners are gaining on the
non-joiners! Pretty soon
we'll have enough to form a cprogramming
platoon! Anybody
here know how to program a nuke?
About programming the nuke, I could write int main (void) to get us started...any tracking devices would have to be someone elses responsibility.
I would sign up to fight. And I would request to be on the front line.
if america was a democracy we'd be in a state of rebellion, unfortunately under our current system of government we are powerless, therefore whatever the brass decides to do is what will be done.
But in this situation I support america as of now, but if it comes down to something drastic (nuclear attack) there is no way i can still support us, our nuclear weapons are not the puny things we held in hiroshima, the effect of one of todays nukes would definately permanently destroy a portion (or the entire) world, and if we use a nuclear device then china, pakistan, india, cuba, and every other nation with nuclear power who isn't a big fan of uncle sam will be wanting to use one of theirs, and if even one of those countries uses one (it doesn't even have to be against us) another country will arise and use a nuclear or biochemical weapon. Bottom Line: The world will be destroyed if we use nuclear weapons, so yes i'll fight .but only to make sure that it doesn't happen
I doubt the US will use NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) unless the enemy do first. Even then, I don't think they would such weapons unless there was absolutley no way else (as in WW2).
The Koran says "An eye for an eye."
The bible says "Turn the other cheek."
What are we as Christian (yeah well) nations going to do?
Bomb the crap out of the Afganistan wilderness?
Send in ground forces? They beat the Russians. (with CIA help) I would not be suprised to find ex USSR nukes in the hands of someone who can organise and _afford_ something like this.
Send in the CIA to train counter terrorists?
Oh, thats how we got into this mess in the first place.
I know someone in our Special Forces, SAS. He has disappeared and says this is it, WW3.
Time to stick your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye!
>Time to stick your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye!<
Don't forget to flush.
rick barclay
Does it sound sarcastic? Nobody else thought it was.Quote:
Originally posted by MechanicX
Hey Rick, were you being sarcastic when you wrote the little article on the first page of this thread?
If you were serious, :(
Wise words from a man of peace, Ghandi:
An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind
:( I guess you don't like it. OK, I'll bite. Why not?
rick barclay
If we ever do go to war, then yes, I'll sign up.
There is no confirmed reports that Afganistan have nuces. But both Pakistan and India do.
~Barjor
and christianity and islam are the two largest religions that say that if someone isn't of your religion they will goto hell, so how can i agree with either side.
>if I'n not mistaken you are part of this country, whatever has been done to the country will always indirectly done to you and therefore affect you either directly or indirectly!<
Hmm...like I said, it hasn't affected me personally:
"And another thing, no one wronged me personally on Tuesday."
No one still hasn't wronged me personally, nor have I been affected by what happened on Tuesday yet. My heart goes out to all those affected, but so far, I stand unaffected by this whole ordeal.
Now, if we go into combat, then I'm sure I will get affected. People I know will most likely go fight...
I did- and we won both wars I was involved in.
The cold war (if you get killed you're dead just the same- hot war/cold war) and Dessert Storm.
This wont be as easy as Dessert Storm, I hate to say it but I don't think it will be easy as the Cold War was either and it took us a long time to win that one. And we lost a lot of good people doing it.
If you want to join up- you should. Our military needs good people very badly. If you don't- you shouldn't, we don't need people out there who aren't willing to do the job and do it right.
You can count on this though- we will be blowing something all to bits here pretty soon one way or another.
"Judges are the justice makers of the court. Police are the justice makes of the street. Soldiers are the justice makers of the field."
I want to be a justice maker of the field.
http://english.islamway.com/article....Sep/colvin.htm
Why Do they Hate America
By: Tariq Colvin* - A glimpse of the horror that took place Tuesday morning. A day of fear, loss, grief and anger. A tragedy for our entire community Muslim and non-Muslim.
We found ourselves trying to understand, to reason, to come to grips with sights and sounds coming in over the airwaves. But how could a disaster so immense, so unexpected, so grave - be understood ?!
Who could have committed such evil? What kind of soul could perpetrate such hatred?
As news came out it was clear. The blame would be placed squarely at the feat of America's Great Satan: Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden.
Calls for restraint and care were drowned out by the lust, though understandable, for revenge. The bearded, sweaty terrorists of every Americans worst nightmare were brought to the fore. It was simple, the enemy was one, the enemy was us (Muslims).
But whoever the perpetrator, whoever is ultimately responsible, we must ask ourselves, "Where in the human soul lay the source of such hatred?" "What could produce such utter desperation and disregard for life?" Without doubt. Tuesday's events didn't appear out of a vacuum. We can never justify or rationalize such a tragedy, but we must attempt to understand WHY !
Yesterday, I discussed this with a teacher. She also though that obscuring the lessons of this tragedy with labels and oversimplifications would only increase the loss.
The reality is that Tuesday's tragedy, a reprehensible crime against humanity, is an expressions of years of pent up frustration, despair, anger and resentment against the United States.
To call the attackers 'crazy', 'senseless', or 'mindless' is to miss the point. The attackers must have been anything but. To lost sight of the context out of which such hatred could flow is to only set the stage for greater tragedies.
If we allow ourselves the easy option of dehumanizing the attackers in our minds, as they must have dehumanized their victims before they ended their lives, then we aid and escalate the cycle of reciprocal violence and lead humanity to darkness beyond imagination.
Were the attackers really so much different than the average American? Retired General Norman Schwartzkopf seemed to think so.
In a recent televised interview he said, "In Iraq we went to great length to avoid civilian casualties .. but these bastards went after civilians. That's the difference between us and them."
But is this the truth, or is this what we'd like be believe about ourselves? In a mid-nineteen nineties interview, CBS Reporter Lesley Stahl questioned the then US Ambassador to the UN, Madeleine Albright, on the post-war sanctions against Iraq : "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, That's more children that died in HIROSHIMA. And -and you know, is the price worth it?"
Albright's reply, "I think this is very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."
Stahl won both an Emmy and a Dupont-Columbia journalism award for this report, but Albright's comment went virtually unremarked in the U.S. ( Though it received considerable attention in the Middle East). Within six months, Madeleine Albright was unanimously approved by the Senate as U.S. Secretary of State.
Price? Price? A heavy and grave price indeed that lives of five hundred thousands innocent children each with dreams and hopes of their own. Aspirations for their young lives. Laughing and loving sweet things and comfort. Loving play and being naughty just like American children.
How could we (as Americans) allow ourselves to be silent while they died? Did we turn our eyes from their humanity and worth? Did we not indeed commit an unimaginable atrocity? Are we really any different than the perpetrator of tueasdays attack ?
They cried to their mothers for food and comfort. Mothers who could do nothing but tell them who had done this to them. Telling them who had been responsible for the pains in their stomachs.
What would you do if this was how your little one had died? What would you be capable of?
But America told the world that deformities the disease and death were 'Worth no price'. No, these children were raised not on milk, BUT ON THE BREAST OF BURNING HATE. Waiting to express itself in an unthinkable explosion of revenge and vindication.
But let there be no question in the minds of our neighbors, coworkers and friends - The Muslim community stands with you in condemnation of this offense against you. As we stand with the children of Iraq. As we stand with the dispossessed of Palestine. As we stand with all who have been wronged.
Many of us know all too well the taste of lives lost. Ones whom we loved. Ones for whom we cried tears. Ones whose joy and laughter we miss so dearly.
Robert Fisk, a well known reporter in the Independent wrote a report towards understanding this tragedy. He said :
" ... And yes, Osama bin Ladin comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy American power. I have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian army in Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on America. But this is not the war of democracy verses terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing in village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps ...
... And there will be, inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the injustices that lie behind yesterday's firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism", the "mindless" bit being essential if we are not to realize how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three great religions.
Ask an Arab how he responds to 20,000 or 30,000 innocent deaths and he or she will respond as decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not use such words about the sanction that have destroyed the lives perhaps half a million children in Iraq, why we did not rage about the seventeen thousands civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of lebanon. And those basic reasons why the Middle East caught fire last September the Israeli occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of Palestinians, the bombardments and state-sponsored executions .. all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery.
Eight years ago, I helped to make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims had come to hate the West. Last night, I remembered some of those Muslims in that film, their families burnt by American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help them but God. Theology versus technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learnt what this means"
So what are the lessons to be learned from this great disaster?
We must work towards greater mutual understanding. We must listen to each other. We must humanize one another, and this cannot be done at a distance. We cannot afford let bombs teach this moment.
Are we not all God's creatures? Do we not all have stomachs, feel cold, feel pain, and need comfort?
Do we not all deserve to be secure from harm and dispossession?
It is imperative that the Muslims join together as one, for it is through this joining that the Almighty and Wise shall make us strong. It's them imperative that we set our course unto spreading understanding and Mercy. And neutralizing enmity, hate and ignorance.
ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ
Tariq Colvin is a Computer Science Student at University of Michigan, Tariq is an American who converted to Islam more than 9 years ago.
>christianity and islam are the two largest religions that say that if someone isn't of your religion they will goto hell<
Islam does not say you will go to hell if you are not a Muslim. Some radical portions of the religion may, but not otherwise.
>Why Do they Hate America <
They hate us because we are a democracy and stand for
everything they are not. Why do so many people, including muslims, fleeing
terror, oppression, and poverty come to this country? Where
else in the world does one experience the religious tolerance
shown in the United States? Where else can a woman speak
her mind so freely? Dress as she pleases? Work at a venue
of her own choosing? Where? IRan? Iraq? Afghanistan?
Saudi Arabia?
There's more religious freedom in Israel than in any Islamic
state. Freedom. Open society. These are the reasons they
hate us--not because of any ridiculous estimates regarding
children dying. They hate us because they are evil and we are good.
I speak not of of arabs or muslims in general, but only those
who attack and murder our citizens for their own twisted, demented
reasons.
If you watch tv and listen to reports today you should come
to the conclusion that the debate is over. We are at war;
terroism is the focal point of this war, and the war will not
end until one side or the other is victorious. Consensus among
those close to the President are espousing the same viewpoint
I offered to this forum last week: you are either part of the problem,
or you are part of the solution. If you want names try these:
Newt Gingrich, Michael Ledeer, Jeanne Fitzpatrick (the moderator), and two other members of a panel discussion sponsored by the American Entrerprise Institue in Washington, D.C. last Friday.
Oh, and welcome back to mfctothemax :) . Unfortunately you
contradicted yourself.
rick barclay
>Hey!!! The joiners are gaining on the non-joiners! Pretty soon
we'll have enough to form a cprogramming platoon! Anybody
here know how to program a nuke?
niice...
eye for eye = blind... niice....
>The bible says "Turn the other cheek."
Ummm... the crusades? Christian holy wars?
The bible can be translated many ways to meet the needs of those that want to see what they want to see.
***********************
You guys need to remember that their are four military organizations (not counting the Coast Guard). You could go into the Navy and shoot missles from 500 miles away or support the ships at home or underway. You could go into the Airforce and stay in cushy houses with manacured lawns and support long distance plane attacks from Germany. You could join the Marines and see a lot of action. And you can join the Army (as many people seem to think about first when thinking of being drafted or supporting their government) and nobly battle at the front line.
I chose the Navy during a time of peace... I got lots of schooling in electronics and rf communications. I got all of my college paid for and 30K for college on my way out.
I will probably get called up to support my country again, and I am ready for it. This country, and the Navy, has helped make me a terrific man, a great father, a loving husband, and a college graduate.
If chosen, I will gladly fight for this country to the best of my ability so that my baby boy has all of the freedoms that I have come to know as rights.
They surely can take my life... but they will never take my right to live without tyranny and terror. They will never take away my freedom, and I certainly won't stand for them to take away yours....
~Betazep
Its been a while but I remember this from school. The poet was Wilfred Owen, a Leuitenant in the English Army in WW1, killed on the Somme 1917.
"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."
[There is no greater glory than to die for one's country]
In my opinion nothing has caused as much bloodshed as religon.
As I read the US peoples posts I can't help thinking that is how the terrorist must have felt. There is nothing else we can do but.........
They started it so we will finish it........
You can't escape either seing the tower collapse again and again
or viewing one of those countless talkshows with 'experts' all
day long here. One of these experts said some remarkable
things. It's not my oppinion, but it's something to think about.
Obviously he talked in german, so this is a summary as well as
translation:
We know the US can go to war. They have proven it many times.
And they will go to war again. But do they have the guts it takes
to win this fight ? Can they belly the countless casualties it will
take on their side ? They want war, understandably so. But do
they realize it's their brothers and sisters coming home in body
bags ?
The last war the actually won was 55 years ago. Look at what
happened in between. They dropped more bombs on north
vietnam than over all of europe in WWII. And still, charlie killed
them. They had superior technology, and it didn't help them
rout an army of enthusiastic fanatics with handguns.
Look at Somalia. Can you remember the outcry when two
of their helicopter pilots were killed in the streets ? One month
later they were out of there. This is going to be a war. Can you
imagine how many people we will see live on CNN dying right
in our living room ? Can they stand to see their people die
every day ? Their friends ? Their husbands ? Their children ?
Russia tried to invade Afghanistan once. They didn't manage.
In he progress they bombed it all to pieces. What makes the
US think they can win a war like this ? What do they think they
can bomb ? Tents ? Wells ? Camel-herds ?
They will need ground troops. And ground troops will die.
Can they afford their people to die ? It's easy and understandable
to call for war. It's all but easy to fight one.
We can only pray that their hatred will not fade, because once
they see the reality of what they are calling for, they will lose.
Again.
Note:
This is not neccessarily my oppinion, but something to think about.
In response to muslims comments:
Poor Iraq had so many people die under US sanctions! Well if Saddam Hussain didn't invade Kuwait then the sanctions would never have taken place. Why should Iraq have been let down easy? Look how many times they tried to block UN weapons inpectors from doing their job? Of course poor Saddam was innocent...as innocent as Hitler.
rick barclay - this thread:
>>>
I speak not of of arabs or muslims in general, but only those
who attack and murder our citizens for their own twisted, demented
reasons.
<<<
rick barclay - terrorism thread:
>>>
>Or will you try and solve that problem by wiping out every single arab muslim. <
Yes.
<<<
What's the matter Rick, surely you're not coming to some sense at last?
I just wanted to say I find it funny that people here get annoyed when people use the term Muslims or Arabs in the context of they are responsible for the attacks in the USA. I don't hear them saying to Muslims/Arabs don't generalise about American's, they aren't all responsible for what has happened in the Middle-East.
The little quote from Rick I chose happened to be the first I came across when looking for one, (there were several in the terrorism thread). Rick was saying that all muslims should be held responsible for the actions of the few that commited this crime, and exterminated.
What about muslims in places like Indonesia, or Nigeria, or Bosnia or anywhere else for that matter?
Rick was demonstrating racism, pure and simple. He was advocating genocide, pure and simple.
When Milosevic was conducting genocide in Bosnia, the US, quite rightly, said this is not acceptable and acted. What Rick fails to see, (or perhaps he is learning now), is that genocide is genocide whoever is doing it.
but arguing on the Internet is as dumb as it gets.
It's hard to understand the other dirty side of the coin when all you get to see is the one shining side/
It's also hard for many Americans to truly WANT to see that other side since whats on the plate is easier to digest after its been cleaned and cooked than the raw meat in the kitchen being prepared.
To be honest, no one can blame either side. Its the way this world works. In the end, its the innocent unsuspecting undeserved people that pay for it.
Not all things you see on tv (CNN) is the whole truth.
Media is probably the most influential in making the public act as they do. Its seen in many countries that are in civil war or even peaceful nations to make the public do what the government wants. In many civil war-torn countries why is the good guy always the government? And the terrorists (true name would be freedom fighters) are just a bunch of murderers. There must be a reason they would be fighting for. Note: Most terrorists started from organized school students. They dropped their books and picked up guns. Why?
In truth, most terrorists have been fighting for a just cause even though their actions are perverted or seem just too much. But if thats all they got (which btw is) then thats what they will do.
This is not an argument. Its what I believe.
Ps: Can you believe we used to kill mathematicians, scientists, and people who used to think differently? Can you believe that innnocent people were killed being called a 'witch'? Can you believe that the whole continent of North America was raped and stolen from people who lived here many centuries before the Europeans arrived? Can you believe that after a bunch of kamikaze pilots attacked pearl harbour and killed about 2000 people, two bombs were dropped on their country and wiped out millions? How many of those millions had even any idea of the Pearl Harbour attack when it took place? This is just to show you that we will never stop this insanity, its in our blood.
i am only twelve, but i'm in civil air patrol
>Unfortunately you
contradicted yourself. <
How so? I said only radical portions of Islam believe otherwise.....
"We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, That's more children that died in HIROSHIMA. And -and you know, is the price worth it?"
lol this is morbid yet funny and a true testament to idiots...
Iraqian familys have like 10 children, they do this because 5 of them will die from starvation- you see it is a paradox, they have enough kids so that some of them will live, but in doing so they starve 1/2 of them to death.
every government in the world that wants to get at america hides behind their population, America cant because our leaders represent our population.
- I guess bombing Iraq to stop bio weapons getting into the hands of a madman was a bad idea. (he is mad because he threatened to hurt the american economy by helping his own through invasion)
"In truth, most terrorists have been fighting for a just cause even though their actions are perverted or seem just too much. But if thats all they got (which btw is) then thats what they will do. "
lets go back in time, say william wallace(recognizable ccharacter) was considered a terrorist, he wanted to liberate a country.
now lets come back to current day - osama bin laden wants to kill americans, he has no country to liberate, no people to free, etc...
>I just wanted to say I find it funny that people here get annoyed when people use the term Muslims or Arabs in the context of they are responsible for the attacks in the USA<
Because the media ties in religion with only Muslims. Whenever a Christian does something horrible in the name of Christ, they always label them as a "cult" or "radical" and never mention religion. Its a double-standard and people are sick of it.
>[There is no greater glory than to die for one's country] <
Tell that to Osama Bin Laden. He's the one responsible for
this wave of flag-waving and war talk. Allllll weeee aarre dooooing is giving us a chance to live in peace, like we were before 5000 of our comrades from this country and without were
murdered by a band of barbarians who don't want peace.
rick barclay
>eye for eye = blind... niice....<
...an eye and then the other eye.
That's nice, too, isn't it?
rick barclay
>This is not neccessarily my oppinion, but something to think about.<
It strikes me as humerous that a German, the all-time losers
in war would say something like that. People are conveniently
overlooking the fact that the events in Vietnam, Somalia, Yemen,
Beirut, and elswhere were not direct attacks on American soil.
They did not happen on American soil with the loss of 5,000
lives, many, many more thousands of jobs, and untold billions
of dollars. A quick question--what was one of the major
underlying causes of World War II?
We are facing that very same prospect here and now, thanks
to Tuesday's events. And the age-old, round-and-round-and
round, never-to-be-resolved question of guilt has passed and is
beyond us now. We are at war. Either join with us to eliminate
the monster you say we created--or get the fuuck out of our
way!
And nvoigt, I understand about your opinion--this is not directed
at you in particular.
rick barclay
>What's the matter Rick, surely you're not coming to some sense at last?<
My words speak for themselves. If they make sense to you,
adrian, then they must be simple, indeed.
rick barclay
Genocide in defense of freedom is no sin :eek: .Quote:
Originally posted by adrianxw
The little quote from Rick I chose happened to be the first I came across when looking for one, (there were several in the terrorism thread). Rick was saying that all muslims should be held responsible for the actions of the few that commited this crime, and exterminated.
What about muslims in places like Indonesia, or Nigeria, or Bosnia or anywhere else for that matter?
Rick was demonstrating racism, pure and simple. He was advocating genocide, pure and simple.
When Milosevic was conducting genocide in Bosnia, the US, quite rightly, said this is not acceptable and acted. What Rick fails to see, (or perhaps he is learning now), is that genocide is genocide whoever is doing it.
rick barclay
*jumps into the argument for the first time* Wait - isn't that the same thing?Quote:
>eye for eye = blind... niice....<
...an eye and then the other eye.
I haven't read any of the other posts, cuz you all know how damned lazy I am. So let's get a few things out here:
Innocents - I know Rick'll say there's no such thing, but there is. There are people who do not condone what bin laden (may have) done, should we kill them, too? Rick, if your brother was convicted of a crime and put to jail, should you suffer the same fate as him? Why not? you're related. You may have the same beliefs as him! See how dumb it sounds?
I think I'm too young (15) to join my country in a war, but I don't think I'd want to. Many of the people I know are saying "Man, if there's a war I'm joining and I'll get me some revenge!" wait, wait, wait. You'll risk your own death to take part in a terrible genocide against the arab peoples? how peachy...
We, as a nation, of course need to do something. But the only thing in my mind that seems to work is war. Because I doubt they'll let us storm in and take bin laden. Even if they do, it'll be close to impossible to find him. We can't just turn the other cheek as the bible instructs, because then we'd probably get more terrorist attacks. "Hey, look! America won't fight back anymore! Let's blow the $hit outta them!"
This is a terrible lose-lose situation. Even if we win a war, we'll wind up losing many more men. Even if we catch bin laden without harming a single one of our soldiers, we've still lost so many people in the attacks. See what I mean?
>Ps: Can you believe we used to kill mathematicians, scientists, and people who used to think differently? Can you believe that innnocent people were killed being called a 'witch'? Can you believe that the whole continent of North America was raped and stolen from people who lived here many centuries before the Europeans arrived? Can you believe that after a bunch of kamikaze pilots attacked pearl harbour and killed about 2000 people, two bombs were dropped on their country and wiped out millions? How many of those millions had even any idea of the Pearl Harbour attack when it took place? This is just to show you that we will never stop this insanity, its in our blood<
Good point about the Japanese. It also shows that people,
innocent or otherwise will be held accountable for the actions
of their government. A lot of so-called innocent Japanese were
nuked so that American servicemen would not have to fight
and die on Japanese soil. It was our lives for for those of
the Japanese, a people history has adjudged as racist as any
ever to roam this planet. And yes, I said people, not government,
because they were raised in the belief that they were home of the gods and were therefore chosen by those gods to rule the earth. Ask any Chinese.
No one nation or people created racism. This is a condition
intrinsic to our souls in varying degrees. If you want to lay the
blame on someone for creating racism, blame God. Go away!
rick barclay
>i am only twelve, but i'm in civil air patrol<
:( Out of the mouths of babes....:(
Good for you, kid. I salute and admonish you to be vigilant. There
are little terrorists roaming around, the same age as you, who
want to kill your dad, your mom, your friends and their moms and
dads. It's up to you and us to stop them.
rick barclay
mfc: first you say they won't; then you say some say theyQuote:
Originally posted by mfc2themax
>christianity and islam are the two largest religions that say that if someone isn't of your religion they will goto hell<
Islam does not say you will go to hell if you are not a Muslim. Some radical portions of the religion may, but not otherwise.
will. That's a contradictory statement, friend.
rick barclay
Radical INDIVIDUALS is what i should have said. A few hundred is a very very very small portion of a billion + muslims.
I fail to see how genocide could ever be a form of defense....