After going thoroughly going through the 6 C++ books recommended by this site to become an expert, what's the next step? How do you go from those books to getting a job? Is it enough?
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After going thoroughly going through the 6 C++ books recommended by this site to become an expert, what's the next step? How do you go from those books to getting a job? Is it enough?
Learning computer programming is only the first step.
Now you need to learn about databases, design patterns, algorithms in some cases, etc.
Most businesses are invested in enterprise solutions for networking applications, you'll need to understand Enterprise, Service Oriented Architecture. You'll need to know business systems and business logic, workflow systems, it goes on in the ways there are to specialize.
The work I do for a living as a programmer is wide and varied, knowing programming is just the tool, but you have to know how to design and interpret plans, strategic thinking and generally understand how to organize and translate information from one system to another.
If you're not talking about business applications development but game programming, then you need to know game design, complex systems, directx/opengl, shader design, parallel programming, physics, general mathematics, etc etc.
If you're not talking about either of those, but maybe programming for scientific research, well... it goes on and on.
It all depends on what you want to do.
What ever you do, expect to be hired as an intern and not be making the big bucks right off the bat, places expect you to prove yourself.
Competition is growing in software, but talented programmers are still in high demand. So learn fast and show off some skills. >:]
If all of that is too much just write software for Apple's iPhone and sell it on App Store, $100 for a development account and App Store access. Nice way to make some money if you can write good software. (Objective-C/OpenGL ES 1+/OpenAL/etc.)
Most software development companies will require you to have a 4 year degree from a school with an accredited CSC/CPE/EE program.
As mentioned, most respectable companies require "proof" that you "know" what your doing. This usually means some type of diploma/degree. Ive been studying computer science for almost 7 years now and havent started the career searching yet.
As with everything in life, the amount of effort you put in to something is proportional to how much it will pay off (or your success). If you read/study for a few months then it will probably be difficult to impress an employer, especially in todays increasingly competitive and difficult market. Then again there are always people who get breaks.
(Note I am not trying to be discouraging, if you think so).
I am soon to graduate with a bachelor's degree in Applied Computer Science. I wanted a degree so I could get a job and move out of my parents' house. I made a bad decision, because it seems computer science is not something you can do without really getting into it and learning it all the time. And I don't even like computer science at all. I feel like I have wasted all this time in college for nothing. I just want a job that pays enough for me to live off of.
Okay great..Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulwin
Now I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulwin
Science is in the title. Science is about learning, and discovering. Computers are technology. Both of these subjects change all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulwin
Your post was putting forth the question if 6 books was enough to get a job. Certainly a CS degree should be enough to get a job to live off. However, I don't know how skilled you are if you spent 4 years in college learning a career you didn't like, and how that would affect finding a job. Generally recruiters are going to look for somebody who wants to do the job. What did you learn in college? Apply for related jobs, and prove you have the skillset to do the job.
The most I learned was a little bit of programming. I don't know if I could program anything in the real world. When I look at open source stuff for the possibility of getting in some practice or real world experience, it's all very confusing to me. College was really a joke. You don't learn much at all.
Moved to GD.
Your Future begins HERE! or HERE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulwin
I highly recommend the first one if you are are as unmotivated as you sound.
Don't think that open source is in any way indicative of most real world programming. Most open source is spaghetti code. Too many cooks and all that. Managing an open source project is like leading MENSAN's, err I mean like herding cats.
Look into Finance... you'll find tons of uninspired software developers like yourself maintaining ancient COBOL based systems to pay the rent and hopefully retire early. May sound kind of crappy, but it's a good paying field and once you get to Senior-VP / Director level, you'll never have to touch source code again.
I disagree with your (serious or not) job recommendations. I also disagree that you can say he/she is unmotivated, with the amount of given information. Earning any science or engineering degree is not (or at least should not be) easy, and I think shows dedication whether he/she likes the field or not. Recently, a friend of mine graduated in a business/applied-oriented CS degree to realize he doesnt really enjoy the field. He is now pursuing an unrelated graduate degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
Please see "Firefox", "Google Chrome", "Linux kernel" to disprove these statements. Open source is a type of real world programming. If you look at very small projects you may notice the quality is not that great, due to the lack of resources or time constraints. If you look at huge projects you may also notice that the quality is degraded, due to the difficulty in managing such a large project. Note that the exact same thing happens in "real world programming" at some company.Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
Applied degrees are generally more, well, applied. That is, it should prepare you more for the "real world", so it would generally have more emphasis on actual programming or networking or other specific technologies, which, as stated, come and go. A non-applied CS degree gives more emphasis on theoretical background and possible creates more opportunities to pursue research.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulwin
Now this is contrary to what I said above. Your applied degree should give you a good background in hands on stuff like programming. If it didnt, then either: the school did a bad job (irrelevant course material) or you did a bad job (poor grades/didnt learn anything).Quote:
Originally Posted by fulwin
If you realized it was a "joke", you should have done something about it to save money and time. You can apply to immediately write the final exams for courses, so you dont waste a semester on them and be over with it in a day. This saves time. Otherwise, you could have went to a better school. Did you go to a community college or some well respected university? I imagine the former.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulwin
As hinted at above, CS is science. You say in your first post you read X number of books and your now an expert--impossible. Any amount of schooling and/or reading will not make you an expert. School is basically an attempt to present you with many different scenarios that could happen in the real world so you are prepared for them if they arise. However, since there are a infinite number of things that will happen in the real world, and since school is for a finite period of time, it (nor reading) cannot prepare you fully. You can get a job and in two weeks learn more than you did in all of your schooling (as an example).Quote:
Originally Posted by fulwin
So if you didnt learn anything in CS and dont like it, the best thing to do is to find something you like and is challenging--go for a different degree or look into graduate school (it does not have to be related to CS). Also, just because you have a CS degree doesnt mean you will get a CS job, so you have options.
Thank you for the good response, nadroj.
I am a bit unmotivated when it comes to computer science or programming. What I'm looking for is not necessarily to get good at programming (although I might if it gets me a decent job) but to just be able to get a decent job to live off of. I'm tired of living at my parents' house. I just believe I made a big mistake going into computer science. It's not something you can take lightly.
Getting a degree in something else, something that can more easily get me a job, sounds like a good idea. It's just that I have wasted years of my life in college already, and I want so badly to get out of my parents' house. It would take me a really long time to get another degree, because my parents paid for my first one, and they would not pay for another. I would probably have to get loans. I hope I don't have to resort to that. With a degree in computer science that I have now, I hope that I can get a job now, without spending more time in school.
The school I went to was Troy University. At first, it was Troy University in Montgomery, AL. Later, I switched to the online version, which is called Troy eCampus.
As for becoming an expert with 6 books, I only said that because this website says "From C++ Beginner to C++ Expert." I haven't finished them yet. I am in the middle of the second one.
Thats certainly not a good thing to admit, and if its true then dont do anything related to CS or programming. If you already have that attitude before starting your career, then if you chose this as a career you will have a terrible life (whether it pays well or, more likely, not). Note that "IT" actually has nothing to do with CS or programming--IT is not CS or programming, so you might want to look into IT.Quote:
I am a bit unmotivated when it comes to computer science or programming.
If you arent interested in programming, then, as I suggested above, do something else. If you still like "computers" then do some IT or tech support thing if thats what you like. Certainly do not get into programming if you have this attitude.Quote:
What I'm looking for is not necessarily to get good at programming (although I might if it gets me a decent job) but to just be able to get a decent job to live off of.
Move out! You can have a full time job while at home or not. You can also be in school while at home or not. Living with or without your parents is completely irrelevant.Quote:
I'm tired of living at my parents' house.
Theres no magical field that guarantees getting a job easier or a better job. If there were such a field then everyone would be in that field, meaning it would actually be very difficult to complete with all of those people. This actual proves there is no such field, something I learned how to do in CS ("proof by contradiction"). If youve never heard of this term then you probably chose a bad school. Also getting any degree certainly isnt a waste of time. The more stuff on your resume the better you look to an employer (of course within limits).Quote:
Getting a degree in something else, something that can more easily get me a job, sounds like a good idea...It's just that I have wasted years of my life in college already
I dont think you realize how many students are in debt because of school.Quote:
I would probably have to get loans
An online degree probably isnt the best idea. Though if the one you chose is credible/respected and you've learned what you set out to (which doesnt it appear so) then its an OK idea. The physical learning and lab environment at school is definitely a good learning experience, rather than an individual non-social one done online.Quote:
I switched to the online version, which is called Troy eCampus.
If I told you "Im God" would you believe me? Being in CS means you (should) have strong logic and reasoning skills, and can see that statements such as the one you read is totally ridiculous.Quote:
I only said that because this website says "From C++ Beginner to C++ Expert."
You shouldnt be motivated by money or time. If you start a career in something you dont like today, you will not be happy in the future, whether the job pays well or not. If you take the time now to get educated in something you enjoy then it will pay off later, whether the job literally pays well or not.
Are you stoned or stupid -Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
Is all the information I need to know that the poster is unmotivated when it comes to computer science or programming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulwin
Now as for serious job recommendations, given that the poster already has a degree, I stick with my original categorization of that second link being a bad idea, but this one is far more reasonable. But again, they will kind of expect you to be motivated in your field.
Actually Firefox and Linux (not the kernel) are the largest contributers to that opinion. I haven't had the pleasure/pain of looking through the chrome source code... yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
ablacher, If you followed the messages chronologically (as most humans do), you will notice that the quote you looked at was stated after my message. This means thatmy statement I believe is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
Do not call me stoned or stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
Linux is the kernel. Are you referring to projects that run specifically on Linux, then? If so, are these projects well known or are they written by just a few people? If thats the case, then see my above post for why this happens. And, again, this happens in "real world programming" too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
And by the way, what is "real world programming"?
So again your assuming it is written poorly? This is another assumption. Keep in mind that its written by probably the most powerful, wealthy, and respected tech companies in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
Heres a list of just a few open source projects, which you say isnt "real world programming" and you say "most" have spaghetti code:Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
In addition to: Firefox, Chrome, Linux kernel:
- Wikipedia (in particular, "MediaWiki")
- MySQL (the most popular database package)
- Apache web server (most popular web server)
- Python
- Azureus
- GTK and GIMP
- Many Bittorrent clients
- OpenOffice
- VNC
- VLC
Again, all of these are not "real world programming" and are littered with spaghetti code, which is obvious due to their stability and popularity (right?).
Abachler is just trying to "get some goad(s)" nadroj, nothing new about that.
Witness, by definition it is impossible to hold CLOSED SOURCE up to any kind of standard at all, because you cannot look at it. All you can have is some anecdotal stories ("All the projects I've worked on -- honest!"). So when someone says open source code is generally a mess, or something to that effect, they can only be bullsh**ing. That's attitude :p!
There are plenty of closed source apps around that run like crap, just you can't for sure blame it on the code, which probably that is good for closed source coders -- they can claim anything they want, they just can't prove anything.
YouTube - Talking Heads - Artists Only
You forgot to add the world's finest and most popular C/C++ compiler, and 100% of the common libraries.Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
Apparently linux is the OS/kernel of choice now on 99%+ of the world's supercomputers -- I guess they couldn't handle all that closed source "quality".
Great to see someone who knows what theyre talking about.
Also, I dont know any Talking Heads, but the first thing I thought of when I checked the link was that it sounded like King Crimson ([something] Bellows, or whatever one of the many lead singers' names were).
EDIT: The name I was thinking is "Adrian Belew".Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Belew
and my crazy ex wife believes she was abducted by aliens, your personal beliefs have no relevance on the validity of yoru statement. Of COURSE you believe yoru statements are true, or you wouldn't have said them, unless you are intentionally trying to deceive people by stating an opinion you don't hold, but to what effect who cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
I didn't call you anything, which would require a declarative phrase.Quote:
Do not call me stoned or stupid.
I asked if you where stoned or stupid, which is an interrogative phrase.
Having reviewed my original statement, I will say that perhaps I could have worded it better... by using a different conjunction, but alas it stands as is.
No, it isn't.Quote:
Linux is the kernel.
I'll see your opinionated knee jerk opinion and raise you an actual informed and experienced position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Spoken like someone that has never done real world development that required signing a non-disclosure agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by MK27
Since you realize you dont have any valid argument, you've resulted to dissecting my statements to find grammatical or other irrelevant errors.
After I said that I went straight to Wikipedia to back up my statement, and noticed it wasnt word-for-word equivalent, but I kept it anyway, because I usually consider Linux to just be the kernel, and when referring to it as an OS I say Linux-based OSs.
Also, I would suggest not to use Wikipedia because its open-source and Ive read every line of its source and its spaghetti code. Also, I would stay away from this website because it uses free and open-source software with terrible code, too.
And of course, Photoshop is part of Windows.Quote:
No, it isn't.
BTW, I find it strange (but it makes sense) that there are open source fanboys, like yours truly, and closed source fanboys, like no one in this thread.
It's not uncommon, though.
When (normal) people look at my laptop, and notice that I run Linux, some of the first comments I received are along the line of "Oh, is that Linux? But it's not as good right? Because it's free."
And that's from engineering students, where about 10-20% run Linux (we even have someone running Solaris), and most of the rest have at least heard about it.
I should start a business selling Ubuntu for twice the price of Windows (price subject to change, depending on the current price of the most expensive version of Windows).
Obviously. I got them bundled with my Microsoft Office OS.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfish
I realize the second statement wasnt directed explicitly to me (though I can assume, as you seem to think is ok, that it was towards me too). And yes, the only real world experience I have is with a company requiring an NDA. So yes, I do have an "actual informed and experienced position".Quote:
Originally Posted by ablacher
On the contrary, I was pointing out logical errors in your reply due to the fact that you obviously failed to comprehend what I actually posted. Your responce implied that I called you stoned or stupid, which I did not, I pointed that fact out.Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
Whereas most OS programmers refer to Linux-OS as Linux and the kernel as the Linux Kernel for a good reason, they are entirely separate projects. There are many different Linux Operating systems, there is only one legitimate Linux Kernel. Even security enhanced linux uses the Linux Kernel.Quote:
After I said that I went straight to Wikipedia to back up my statement, and noticed it wasnt word-for-word equivalent, but I kept it anyway, because I usually consider Linux to just be the kernel, and when referring to it as an OS I say Linux-based OSs.
vBulletin is not open source in the traditional sense, that is it is not in the public domain, only licensed customers have access to the source code, which is a necessity as its written in php.Quote:
Also, I would suggest not to use Wikipedia because its open-source and Ive read every line of its source and its spaghetti code. Also, I would stay away from this website because it uses free and open-source software with terrible code, too.
Stability and popularity can still be noodly as hell. Spaghetti code is far less secure. In point of fact, every system is perfectly secure until someone figures out a weakness. Then a systems security depends on how readable the source is so that a security fix can be implemented quickly. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some snot nosed wet behind the ears recent college graduate isn't getting first crack at fixing the latest al Qaeda hack and if your code is obfuscated or spaghetti code, even if every other snot nosed kid uses the same brand of spaghetti, it is more often cheaper to just throw the code out and start over. The cost of dealing with a security issue isn't the cost of development, but the cost of continuing to use an insecure system.
to be frank ,i am a sophomore in major cs, now i absorb my self in it and when it's the time to show ,i will surprise everyone
Of course they are separate projects, no one said they are the same. Of course there are many OS, Linux or otherwise. Of course there is only one "official" Linux kernel. All of these facts were already known and agreed on.
Also, "most programmers" means nothing. Please do a survey to provide hard data. Otherwise theres no point discussing this subjective topic.
Your making false assumptions again: I never said "vBulletin" is open-source. The DBMS used here is open-source. Edit: Also, the majority of the PHP libraries that it uses are probably open-source too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
OK, I'm going to stop feeding the troll now.Quote:
Originally Posted by nadroj
Your confirming I never said anything about vBulletin, so thank you. This web site uses PHP and MySQL. MySQL, see my post earlier, is open-source. PHP, see my post earlier, contains a mostly open-source set of libraries. Therefore, as I stated earlier:And thank you for discontinuing the discussion, at least until you have something constructive to add.Quote:
...this website [...] uses open-source software
Ha ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by abachler
Then do something about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulwin
Yeah. Like so many before you and after you that think computer programming is cool and game programming is hot. Not so great anymore ain't it?Quote:
I just believe I made a big mistake going into computer science. It's not something you can take lightly.
Then do something about it! x2Quote:
With a degree in computer science that I have now, I hope that I can get a job now, without spending more time in school.
I'm all for Burger King too. That fits your profile just nicely. The army would have the likes of you for dinner and we don't want anything bad happening to you. Or you can do what everybody else seems to be doing. You chicken out the big companies and software development houses, lie on your resume, and hop the rest of your short career between small computer development jobs. Once you get fired because you slacked, you go and find another one. You can live of that, if you don't mind being a loser.
Or...
You can get your act together. Stop sucking your thumb, grow some cojones and be a man. Respect all the hard work your parents put into paying your tuition over these years (that you told'em you wanted!) and get out there just like everybody else trying do something for a living.
Were you my son, I'd go creative on your face.
That pretty much says it all. I've been thru this, and it ended with the old man learning a quick lesson about the power of youth. Hasn't happened again ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
Anyway, if you don't like CS, drop it now. After I finished my BA (in English/Humanities, which I totally enjoyed and is still an area of interest for me), all I had left to do was a year of teacher's college and the world was mine: I could just pick a place, and go get a job in public education.
First, I decided to take some time off and work in unrelated fields for a bit. While that was happening, my friends were in teacher's college and hating it. I started to think about what it would be like in the real world, working in public school. All those jackass teachers I had no respect for would now be my peers. Now, some people will say it's worth it if you can make a difference in some student's life, etc. If I was honest with myself, however, I didn't believe in the public education system at all -- I felt the same way I always have: that it is mostly a waste of time, that it stunts human potential rather than fostering it, and that the whole system is fundamentally flawed. I am not going to be a fool about it -- I would be there for a paycheck. That's all I really wanted. I do not have to be a school teacher to be a positive influence on someone.
Ten years later I still do not regret my decision not to become a teacher even tho my degree is more or less useless for anything else, and even tho I would doubtless be living a more stable and comfortable life now. I would also have had to spend the last ten years in front of a class room, which IMO you might as well collect a check as a prison guard. Yuck.
You sound like the kind of person who is actually afraid of failure, which is why you finished a degree that didn't interest you -- because you didn't want to drop out, you don't want people like Mario F. to call you a loser. You need to get over that. Go do grunt work for a while. No doubt, the Army would be exciting, Burger King might be okay if not for the low low pay, altho I've worked doing fast food and in some high end resturants, as maitre'd and dishwasher. In the end I realized I'd rather wash the dishes because I don't like serving the public face to face, at all. So, I don't mind packing skids in a warehouse, but I go nuts as a cashier.
If you continue to let your parents and conventional conceptions of "success and failure" push you around, you will never be happy. Getting a good job at a big company in your "field" -- when you've already acknowledged you wished you weren't in it -- will only lead to resignation and disappointment with life down the road.
Any advice you get about this situation is going to be cliche because it is a cliche situation. Don't drag it out.