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With the increase in iPhone developers, would it not be good to have an Objective-C section on the forum so people can discuss Obj-C and Mac related programming questions?
Just an idea as I work on a Mac, and noticed you had Linux and Windows on there.
There is not enough demand for Obj-C or Mac discussion to warrant the extra forums, methinks.
The demand bit argument is a little circular; certainly there haven't been hordes beating down the gates looking for it, but people who are looking for it probably show up, see nothing here useful, and then leave.
The catch (IMHO) is that ObjC is, at best, a red-headed stepchild of C -- the "interesting" questions would come from the Obj part and not the C part, I would expect. Compare the C and C++ forums to, say, the C# forum, which is sitting at about 1/20th the action or so, and realizing that ObjC is even less related to C then C# is, and I would expect even less action there. (To put it another way, most of the "experts" in the C forum are also "experts" in the C++ forum and vice versa, but most of us probably would not be "experts" in the ObjC area. I mean I've dabbled in it a little, but not enough to have any idea what's going on, so that community would have to get built from scratch. And if you have to build it from scratch, is this the right place to do it?)
All of which is a very long-winded way to say: it wouldn't bother me to have that new forum, but I wouldn't expect to contribute much and I wouldn't expect it to be very useful (although I'm willing to be proved wrong).
I am not sure where you got that idea from.Quote:
and realizing that ObjC is even less related to C then C# is
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by tabstop
When I was developing iPhone apps, I could never find an active community. And sometimes I'd need to ask questions relating to C and C++ as some of the Cocoa libraries are not Objective-C. I think it'd be good to have an Obj-C community on here.
What, isn't it already objective enough? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by jamesjeffery
I notice there is already at least one fairly busy objective C oriented forum:
Mac Programming - Mac Forums
which there is an iphone programming forum there too.
Diversity and competition are great -- it's nice to be able to choose somewhere else if you don't like where you are at. On the other hand, there is not really much to be gained from "diffusing the crowd" too much. There are other sites with C and C++ programming forums, but I have never seen one with the volume (and, of course, quality) of activity as here.
Adding another objective-C forum to the net might just detract from the ones that already exist. Plus, as everyone know, Mac users can be an unruly bunch.
Or at least a forum on Mac programming?Quote:
Originally Posted by MK27
At least that way, anything related to Mac, such as Carbon, Cocoa, Objective-C, Appkit etc can all be discussed under one forum.
Probably from using them both a little bit, I would imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_guy
And if it's not clear, I mean that the "hard stuff" that I would expect to consistently find on the forums -- I believe that a standard C program works as ObjC, while it doesn't in C# of course; but if you pick a line of C# at random you might believe it comes from a C program, while something like
obviously doesn't.Code:[myCircle setOriginX:5.0 setOriginY:10.0 setRadius:3.5]
I am merely commenting on the fact that in terms of being syntactically and semantically related, Objective-C is much closer to C than C# is, considering that Objective-C is a superset of ANSI C, and hence, all valid C programs are valid Objective-C programs. Their direct relation to one another is quite a bit more obvious - in fact it is quite possible to argue their *direct lineage* where you could not do the same with e.g. C and C#.Quote:
Probably from using them both a little bit, I would imagine.
You mean like this?Quote:
but if you pick a line of C# at random you might believe it comes from a C program
I don't believe any reasonable C programmer is going to think that is C.Code:int z = 20;
Func<int,int,int> f1 = (x, y) => x + y + z;
Regardless your 'pick a line' at random metric is totally unfair and meaningless because you just 'randomly' decided to put up one particular example of objective-C syntax that does *not* appear in C (namely, sending messages to objects) the same way I have done with C# with anonymous lambdas - so your point is moot in any case.
Maybe we could make this thread the Objective-C forum.
:p
We don't need any new forums.
Except for that one that no one wants to talk about
Guys there is no need to be negative about the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ಠ_ಠ
It was an idea. When you're in the morning meeting and ideas are being thrown around, however silly they may sound to you, you don't mock the idea. There is no reason to believe people wouldn't use a Mac programming forum.
A Mac Programming forum, where people can discuss all Mac related C, C++ and Objective-C would be a great idea. I see Windows, and Linux, but no Mac.
what makes you say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesjeffery
Because you're mocking an idea without understanding. Just because not many Mac developers don't talk on here, does not mean they are a minority. As someone already said, Mac developers might come here, but be put off because of no place to talk about Mac related C/C++/Obj-C programming. I don't know about you, but before I ask a question on a forum I make sure there is a high possibility people will answer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ಠ_ಠ
If you declined an idea in a meeting without any prior knowledge or understanding, and because you generally don't like the idea for no particular reason, you'd look a little silly.
>Because you're mocking an idea without understanding.
I don't think your idea is especially difficult to understand. In fact, suggesting that it's being rejected without understanding is rather arrogant, because you imply that we're unable to understand something simple.
>If you declined an idea in a meeting without any prior knowledge or understanding, and
>because you generally don't like the idea for no particular reason, you'd look a little silly.
And if you assume that your idea is being declined due to lack of prior knowledge or understanding without any proof, you'll look a very silly when proven wrong. Speaking of which, we've been through this before. The C# forum exists because somebody suggested it on a whim and managed to convince enough powerful people that it was a good idea. Now we have a C# forum that's inactive, pathetic, and essentially worthless compared to other C# forums on the web. After a few years it's still like this, so keep in mind that we're already biased against frivolous forums.
So yes, we understand in full what your idea entails, probably better than you do because your idea is neither new nor unique, and most of us have been around long enough to see the idea get thrown around several times and get attempted at least once. We have both prior knowledge and understanding born of experience.
I can only support the Objective C forum. Every now and then idea about a Mac forum emerges here, but nothing happens.
Objective C is C plus few extensions. Every C program compiles without any modifications as Objective C and most of the stuff people use on unix/linux (except gui implementations) exist on Mac/iPhone.
Most forums dedicated to iPhone development have a front page less than 24 hours old. Objective C jumped on tiobe into Top 20. On Stack Overflow, iPhone is in the first row of the hottest tags. On Amazon, Objective C book is top seller in the C section and iPhone books are bestsellers in most other computing categories.
C Board would probably grow as a whole if it starts Mac/iPhone development forum. Just try it and see what happens.
Regardless of how popular Macs/Obj-C are, this forum doesn't have a good community of people who are familiar with that platform. The C and C++ forums flourish because we have enough professionals in that field that 3 or 4 of them are online at any on time - thus the questions get answered within minutes at any time of day. The reason the C# board is lacking is because we simply didn't have a critical mass of people familiar with that, and so it takes forever for a question to be answered. So, we might as well have no C# forum, and we don't get a lot of return visits - people realize there's more mature communities. Now - I hardly hear any talk about iPhones on this board - probably because most of the more senior members I'm familiar with don't have anything to do with them. So if we started an Obj-C board, who would make it more of a success than the C# board? I hear less about Obj-C on here than I did about C# when it started.
I'm inclined to agree with sean.
If someone suddenly convinces lots of Mac or Obj-C experts to come here and be active about it, then there would be a need for separate forums, perhaps. But as it stands now - not enough discussion! It would be wasted space, simply put. And lots of forums cannot always be considered a good thing. Ever looked at MSDN's forums? It's overcrowded with sections.
I hope not. You know how we treat minorities around here...Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesjeffery
By this line of reasoning, we should have a Miley Cyrus discussion forum as well to assist us in our quest to become the biggest web forum board in the history of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by idelovski
Unless that means enough extra ad money to put me on the payroll :p, I don't necessarily see a big advantage to growth for it's own sake at this point. AFAICT, 95% of the questions asked in the cbaord forums I pay attention to get solved, and most of them in only a few hours.
I have seen some programming forums that are busier than cboard but I'm not sure that necessarily makes them better.
No, but there are plenty I have seen that try to have a forum for everything, and half of them get 2 posts a month. That's what happens if you water something down enough. I much prefer a specialized board dedicated to a few things rather than one that tries to be all things to all people. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysia
ps. why do the Mac programmer's concerned want another forum? Is there a problem at the ones that already exist?
There once was a board that tried to have a forum for everything. It started out very good and then became watered down to the point that it was no longer about programming.
It did have a very nice assembly board and some very good members but it degraded into a disaster b/c there were too many forums.
Mac devs are definitely fewer in number than x86 devs and this is evidenced by simple economics: market share.
The forum's growth wasn't my major point.Quote:
Originally Posted by MK27
Objective C is a superset of straight C. To learn Objective C you need to learn C first. For someone interested in Mac/iPhone development it would be a natural progression to come here, spend a few months in the C forum and then expand to Objective C forum.
But, maybe we should just wait another year or two for the critical mass,... or maybe someone should start a poll: Do you want Obj-C forum on C Board? Yes/No/Cancel?
How long has the iPhone been out now? I doubt there will be any "critical mass."
I wonder if there's a way to hide forums, but still make them searchable?
Then those "failed" forums could simply be hidden, if they are ever created.
if they were hidden, people wouldn't know to search on them.
Hidden boards will show up in search results if searching the entire forum.
That's a great idea. I have nothing against it, so I would not vote against it (but I would not vote for it, either). I still don't think it is actually in anyone's interest, because there are already successful iphone and obj-C forums elsewhere. I don't program exclusively in C and so I use other boards; I don't have a problem doing that; I wouldn't ask them to start a C forum just cause I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by idelovski
One reason that might almost make me vote against it, and this I admit is perhaps a bit wacky: C/C++ is a "hard core" programming realm from which many other "realms" (eg obj-C) may be derived. That may be why the cboard is such a high quality place, so I can understand why you might want your forum here and not somewhere else. :p But it could be that by including all these potential derivative realms, you weaken the brilliance of the fundamental edifice. Does that make sense?
There's a way to do everything, you know that. Just most people don't actually want to do everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysia
Sure, yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by MK27
We're all developers here. Each time someone asks for a feature in my software my initial response is NO! I must keep simplicity of my application and maintainability of my code above anything else. Then if I receive the same request for the millionth time NO turns into MAYBE and eventually it becomes YES.
You aren't very successful then are ya? When I get feature requests from my users the first response I give is a "Why? What goal are you trying to achieve?" Then it becomes a matter of figuring out what features they need and implementing them. A lot of time what they want is already in the system and they just don't know it (training) or the information is presented in a way that isn't effective. I tend to work on projects that are basically living, breathing entities where development is always going on. Just saying no just isn't acceptable (within some measure of reason, I'll say no if they ask for me to put in a security hole).Quote:
Originally Posted by idelovski
Ditto that. Not like I'm important enough to actually have a say what features are put in and what ones are not. Way above my cube. Features are decided on by management and implemented by devs. There really isn't much choice in the matter if the management really wants it put in. We just figure out how to do it and make it work.Quote:
Just saying no just isn't acceptable
Does that mean we can have Objective C forum?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thantos
PS. Requests by clients are important, of course. It depends on type of the project how you handle those wishes. If you have one project per client, then you just do what they say. If you have one project (or just a few) for all of your customers, then you must filter their wishes very carefully. I am sure you have heard expressions like 'featuritis', 'feature creep' or 'bloatware'.
Yes, we have discussed IDE's thoroughly.Quote:
Originally Posted by idelovski
I know of quite a few that are very familiar with OS X(myself included). Obj-C, on the other hand... Not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
Does that warrant an OS X forum? No, probably not. Most issues can be figured out with a simple google search, and if there are even bigger issues Apples technical support staff actually speaks English as their first language!
The boom in Obj-C seems to be directly related to the iPhone, and as such I'm sure the fad with that will die down fairly soon(what with the over-saturation of the app store, and crappy business model that the iPhone supports). I'd say if people are still interested in Obj-C in five years, then maybe a separate forum could be considered:p.
Regarding the topic of whether C# or Objective-C is more semantically similar to ANSI C, I would overwhelmingly have to side with C#.
I have seen a lot of Objective-C (although I have never coded in Objective-C), and every time I look at it I am simply bewildered because it looks nothing like C.
The question then becomes 'how much C# have you looked at and written'? If the answer is 'not much,' or "i've never coded in it" then I don't think this statement is really that unbiased in its view.Quote:
I have seen a lot of Objective-C (although I have never coded in Objective-C), and every time I look at it I am simply bewildered because it looks nothing like C.
How does C# code that uses generics, lambdas/delegates, classes/objects (and soon dynamic typing) look 'any more' or 'act any more' like C than Objective-C with it's interfaces, messages and objects is what I'm wondering.
Again, I really just want to know on what basis/metrics you qualify your claims - saying "I looked at this totally arbitrary piece of objective-C code and it was totally weird and un-C-like so C# must be closer" isn't really a very good argument.
This is all fine and dandy. But I'm curious, mad_guy. Since you are the one consistently arguing against the opinions being expressed here, how about you start by answering your own questions? Can you objectivelly support your arguments, or are you going to spend the whole thread merely suggesting how everyone is so wrong?
'Consistently arguing'? I am merely questioning the basis on which people are making these evaluations. I am not trying to meaninglessly bicker as you seem to imply - I am genuinely curious as to why people have formed this opinion.Quote:
consistently arguing against the opinions being expressed here
I don't believe I ever told anybody "you're wrong" - I do however remember asking a few people about the basis upon which they made their evaluation that "C# is closer to C than Objective-C" - and I have yet to get a response that articulates that clearly other than "I saw arbitrary code written in Objective-C and it didn't look like it." Everybody is pointing out the change in syntax/semantics that Objective-C takes, and yet nobody has pointed out the large break in syntax/semantics that C# makes. Yet everybody so far has voted for C# being closer to C than Objective-C. The argument so far seems fairly one-sided, don't you think?Quote:
Can you objectivelly support your arguments, or are you going to spend the whole thread merely suggesting how everyone is so wrong?
In any case, my reasoning is that they are more closely related if due to nothing else than the fact that A) all valid C programs are valid Objective-C programs because the language is a strict superset of the standard, and B) because it's possible to write all objective-C programs in a semantically equivalent way (that is, with all the exact same message passing, interfaces, classes, etc etc) using only the ANSI C subset + interfacing with the objective C runtime library which provides the support for such language features. Not all C programs are valid C# programs (in fact, probably none are without modifications,) and it's not possible to write every C# program in C in a semantically equivalent manner, i.e. you can fake OO with something like GObject, but you are not using the same runtime or library code for that matter. You're not even using the same compiler. On top of that you're also not getting lambdas/delegates or good generics either.
Is this good enough? At the very least, I think it is better reasoning then what has been proposed, and no, I'm not saying "I'm right, you suck" - I just want a more concrete argument than "I saw it once or twice at a glance and made my judgment."
I think the general tone here is no we do not need another forum regardless of what it is for.
I think my position was a little bit sideways of what you're saying. I'm saying something like this: Obj-C and C# have both (a) parts that are very much like C and (b) parts that are very much not like C, and whether or not they are very much related in fact, the parts of C# that aren't C look like C, or at least C++ at the worst [EDIT: Maybe just most of the parts -- obv lambda functors don't look like C or C++], while the parts of Obj-C that aren't C look like Smalltalk. If we have a separate forum for Obj-C, then more or less by definition only the parts that are different will be focused on in that forum, and for many of us (I'm one, and a couple other people have chimed in) Smalltalk is a foreign enough language that we are just simply not able to contribute. I'm not saying that I feel that I personally must be able to contribute to every forum on this site or else it's not worthwhile, but you will be lacking a large body of self-described experts willing to help that have accreted here on the C side, and I can't imagine it being less worthless than the C# forum is now. (At least most of us can read the posts in the C# forum, and can spot the easy syntax errors.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_guy
Oh, and an edit edit: Although I wouldn't be surprised, if you took a poll, that the new forum would win; I wouldn't vote against it (I just wouldn't vote for it either), and I certainly wouldn't mind the ObjC forum existing and doing well, even if such would make me look like an idiot. I just don't expect it to happen, alas.
I would agree, definitely. I however would prefer to point out how wrong the actual question is. It's like asking what's closer to a Ferrari; a red car, or a sports car? You may get a satisfying answer, but not a sound one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_guy
In my opinion, the ability of Objective-C to compile C code is largely irrelevant. It does this trough compiler gimmicks to separate language specific code. A C program compiled with the GNU Objective-C compiler stays a C program, much like I'd argue against the idea that C code compiled with a C++ compiler magically becomes C++. I'm pretty sure C# could compile inline C code if the need existed for such a compiler feature. The fact it does not (to my knowledge) isn't because of anything specially pernicious about C# towards C.
It's in the differences between Objective-C and C# towards C, that one could probably look for things that approached one of the languages more towards C. Frankly I see no such thing. Both languages become vastly different from C once we start to use the features specific to them. On the account of Objective-C, you have garbage collection, the whole OOP shebang, the significantly different (to #include) #import directive.
In any case, I'd reckon that the most powerful argument for Objective-C being closer to C than C# comes not from its C inheritance (which could be compared to C++), but from the fact it can be implemented on top of existing C compilers.
I've tried several times to get an assembly forum added, to no avail, but we get a C# forum which sees little traffic. It's really up to the whim of the sysop.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesjeffery
Hey, now an assembly forum would be cool :PQuote:
Originally Posted by abachler