Application Data folder on Windows

Half of my support calls on Windows are related to my application "losing its preferences."

When I started programming for Windows, everyone said you should not put preferences and
settings into MyDocuments but instead applications should keep such stuff in Application Data
(CSIDL_APPDATA). Wherever you looked, users were complaining about "stupid" applications
that create their folders and files in MyDocuments. People just hate it.

Well, after three years with the Windows version I think I have a problem. No one is backing
up Application Data. This morning I had a call from a guy who lost the setting after he moved
to a new computer and just 30 minutes ago some girl told me about an IT guy yesterday who
did something on her computer and now my application behaves as if it was just installed.

What am I supposed to do? Move my preferences to MyDocuments and play dumb?

Installing to my documents is taboo. I hate it, because it's so darn cluttered.
You can't be faulted because users are stupid, or does something unpredictable.
That is what I believe.

But how do I solve my problem? I don't enjoy arguing with my customers.

That is not something I know the answer to... why does it work when in the my documents folder and not the application data?
If you put it into the my documents folder, you will get heat from those who do not wish it there... and if you put it in the application data folder, where it belongs, you get heat from the customers? I think you need to educate them a bit.
Tell them that the application stores its settings in the %appdata% folder and tell them to back it up if they wish to keep the settings. That is the wisest solution that I know of, something that all computer users should know.

They should back up "Documents and Settings" -- which as its name indicates is settings and documents. Long gone are the days when it was only "My Documents".

Perhaps put a note in your software or make it obvious to the users, in installation for example.

make an online database to store everyone's settings :).

keep them in a settign file in teh applications folder... honestly, its like people completely forgot how things worked before there was a registry.

whatever you do dont put them in teh registry, that thign is so bloated with crap already I have to manually clean mine out every 6 months.

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Originally Posted by abachler

keep them in a settign file in teh applications folder... honestly, its like people completely forgot how things worked before there was a registry.

whatever you do dont put them in teh registry, that thign is so bloated with crap already I have to manually clean mine out every 6 months.

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Exactly. I don't see the purpose of the Documents & Settings directory. Why can't every program just keep their crap in their own directories?

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Originally Posted by cpjust

Exactly. I don't see the purpose of the Documents & Settings directory. Why can't every program just keep their crap in their own directories?

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Because stupid users need ONE folder where they can keep all their crap!

--
Mats

I'm siding with mats. Makes it more organized that way and easier to back up application data and settings.

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Originally Posted by zacs7

They should back up "Documents and Settings" -- which as its name indicates is settings and documents.

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Unfortunately, this folder is hidden on most computers used by non-techies.

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Originally Posted by cyberfish

make an online database to store everyone's settings :).

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Yes, and then find myself on some forum blamed for spying on people.

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Originally Posted by abachler

whatever you do dont put them in teh registry, that thign is so bloated with crap already I have to manually clean mine out every 6 months.

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No sweat. I am a Mac user so I still don't get it why Microsoft invented the Registry. I use it
only during install just for icons and associations. Nothing else.

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Originally Posted by cpjust

Why can't every program just keep their crap in their own directories?

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I'm not sure applications can write there if used by non admins. And I agree with others
that keeping all the personal stuff at one place is better design. Just don't understand why
they made that place invisible for regular users.

I can't recall I ever had to deal with users losing my prefs on Mac in 15 years. It probably
happened few times, but I don't remember anyone ever bothered me about it.

If an application were to store its data in its home directory, you'd have the following problems:
1) Application needs write access to its home directory. Since this directory is admin area, this means you need admin access.
2) Application needs to differentiate between settings for different users. Moreover, one user can access and modify the settings file of another.

Both problems can be fixed on the OS side to a point. Vista has user overlays - if an unprivileged user tries to write to a protected area, Vista creates an overlay, which is basically a directory stored in the user's own area, whose contents are merged with those of the real directory.

But this feature is very new. Separation of users by different directories is as old as different directories and different users. It's still the way to do it on Linux. (But then, Linux really doesn't have a concept of "one directory per application".)

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Originally Posted by idelovski

...Just don't understand why they made that place invisible for regular users.

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They hide it so casual users won't wonder WTF is that and try to delete it, or do something other stupid with it.

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Yes, and then find myself on some forum blamed for spying on people.

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Unless you make it clear that you are doing this?

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Originally Posted by Elysia

They hide it so casual users won't wonder WTF is that and try to delete it, or do something other stupid with it.

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... like back it up?

Sorry - couldn't resist! ;)

Oh yeah, I forgot there's actually people out there that share their computer with other people. :D
I guess it makes sense in that way, but in another way it also adds more clutter, especially for people who don't share their computer with anyone else.

Oh, and if you keep application settings right next to application executables, backups become either really tricky or really large. :)

> Oh, and if you keep application settings right next to application executables, backups become either really tricky or really large.
One of the reasons they moved away from that idea perhaps?

Made me sad, makes things a tad harder to program :(

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Originally Posted by idelovski

... like back it up?

Sorry - couldn't resist! ;)

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Well, maybe.
There should definitely be tools to backup application settings, to make users aware.
Indeed, tools to backup the entire profile would be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

Oh, and if you keep application settings right next to application executables, backups become either really tricky or really large. :)

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That's why you only backup files that have changed for Incremental Backups.
I use an external hard drive for backups and it takes about 5-10 mins to do a total backup of my entire system >200GB.

I'd rather restore the system from a complete backup rather than reinstall all the software, then restore the data from backup and hope you didn't forget to backup anything important.

But full backups tend to up a lot of space, so you would do it every month or so.
But backing up app data takes up little to no space, so you could do it regularly.
And typically, it wouldn't matter if they were next to the apps or not - since you would (hopefully) do a full system partition backup.

In the end it seems there isn't much I can do. So I came to a conclusion that maybe I can
put a checkbox somewhere in my application that tells it to keep a copy of settings file in
My Documents too.

Default would stay as it is today, preferences are kept in Application Data, but if someone
wishes, application can always create a copy in My Documents.

So, a day comes and the file in Application Data is lost. My application is about to create
new, default file in Application Data, but it checks first if maybe there is a copy in My
Documents. If there is, then that copy is used and from there everything resumes as before.

The thing is, few months ago there was a guy who lectured me about Windows platform best
practices and told me that he never heard about Application Data, but on Windows "everything
important is kept in My Documents" so I should learn to use that folder. I said "Yeah, yeah" to
him, but now his arrogant ignorance gave me idea. To people like him I can just say that in
some pref panel there is a check box and now everything will be kept in My Docs and every-
thing's fine and happy ever after and so on.

This should be like perfect solution until Microsoft finds a better place for Application Data.

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Originally Posted by idelovski

This should be like perfect solution until Microsoft finds a better place for Application Data.

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Microsoft doesn't need to. The application data folder is ideal.
People are ignorant and will always be, so this issue will continue always and forever.
My documents are so littered with all sorts of crap where I usually am supposed to keep... that's right - documents!!!

People aren't automatically ignorant because they don't want to take the time to master a file-system. What's wrong with you pseudo-intellectual types. You know, technically I was directed by my professor to create several new directories at the top level of the C: drive, and I didn't. From what I've seen, people typically order things when they will have longevity or things of weighty importance to them.

Lots of people are ignorant. And being ignorant is fine, because we do not have to know the inner workings of something to use it. So in many areas we are ignorant, yet we still use it and the purpose of many things is to make it usable by ignorant people.
What people need to do is use a backup tool that knows what it's doing.