Thread: Could Windows suck any more than it does?

  1. #31
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    Linux isn't going to gain traction until they implement a proper GUI and software (graphical) applications to support it. You're not going to get casual users over to Linux if it takes editing configuration files and typing stuff in a terminal to get things done. And casual users make up most of the market.

    You can teach a Technie Linux. Sure, no problem. You can probably teach kids Linux too. But it's not going to help until the ecosystem is there. Linux is mostly known for hacker-friendliness, for people who know their way around a terminal. Unless you change that mindset by getting over other developers, the problem is going to remain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #32
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Linux isn't going to gain traction until they implement a proper GUI and software (graphical) applications to support it. You're not going to get casual users over to Linux if it takes editing configuration files and typing stuff in a terminal to get things done.
    "They" have. Gentoo or Arch may not provide you with a GUI, but Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, etc does. You can do everything from installation to disk formatting to network and firewall configuration to office work to video editing to programming all without ever touching the terminal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Linux is mostly known for hacker-friendliness, for people who know their way around a terminal. Unless you change that mindset by getting over other developers, the problem is going to remain.
    When you've only ever used Windows, every problem looks like it needs a GUI. But in the real world, many problems are much easier solved with a CLI. This isn't an either-or, it's different tools for different jobs. Do you think Microsoft implemented an Ubuntu subsystem for the lolz?

  3. #33
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Linux isn't going to gain traction
    It already has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    until they implement a proper GUI and software (graphical) applications to support it. You're not going to get casual users over to Linux if it takes editing configuration files and typing stuff in a terminal to get things done. And casual users make up most of the market.
    I know you like GUIs. And I know that because this has been your argument for as many years as I know you. And you never quit repeating it. But discounting the fact there's plenty of material to argue with you about GUIs vs the command-line, Linux already caters for casual users and has done so for a quite a while. The most commonly used distributions nowadays work out of the box with no need for a casual user to interact with the terminal. Right after installation they are ready for music and video playback, internet access, office and games. Installation of new software is also done by GUI applications that manage the package system through an interface very similar to app stores with users reviews and single button installation and uninstallation clicks.

    Casual users aren't interested in system maintenance and Linux doesn't force it on them. Those days are gone. Me thinks you need a refresh course on what Linux distributions have become, because even someone like you, deadset on your logic with no room for anything else, must at least agree at some point that in 20 years things must change. And changed they have. A lot.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #34
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    True, Arch and Ubuntu are pretty separate things. Arch has you manually configure and setup a kernel for yourself. Ubuntu's actually pretty stream-lined.

    But what Ubuntu really lacks are failure tools. It's all too easy to download and install a faulty driver which kills your GUI and forces you down to the command line. So, the distro will cater to noobs but then all of a sudden require someone very comfortable with command-line controls and knowledge of hotkeys. I'm think in particular of the ctrl-alt-f1 to manually drop down into a terminal session at the login screen for example. Many people have had this issue with Ubuntu.

    Again, this is largely the fault of the manufacturers and driver implementers. But at the same time, I can't truly fault them because they were likely just doing what they were told to do.

  5. #35
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    A casual user has no way to install a faulty driver on linux. He just doesn't.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  6. #36
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    And then you've encountered the true and underlying fundamental design flaw inherit to Linux.

    The middle-ground. A user who knows enough to screw themselves over but not enough to save themselves.

  7. #37
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    And then you've encountered the true and underlying fundamental design flaw inherit to Linux.

    The middle-ground. A user who knows enough to screw themselves over but not enough to save themselves.
    MutantJohn,

    He is the exact same user everywhere else, on Windows, Mac, iOS, Android. Would you believe if it's in the thousands the number of requests I have got from friends or family in my 30 years of computing on such things as "my printer stopped working", "Office doesn't open anymore", "My computer is running slow", "Windows crashes", etc etc etc? They too face situations on which they screwed themselves and cannot save themselves.

    You may argue that the solutions to these and other problems are different in Linux than they are on Windows. But it's hard to accept that one requires an higher expertize than the other. Under most circumstances the solution in Linux lies in knowing the exact command in the terminal, while under Windows going to the exact place on the system systems through a GUI application or downloading a new piece of community-made arse-saving software because Microsoft didn't bother designing it for you.

    And, honestly, users on Windows screw themselves fatally by many ways other than their own doing. A wrong website, a wrong software download, drivers too(!), all sorts of problems happen beyond most users control on an ecosystem plagued with malware. While, under almost all circumstances Linux users screw themselves by their own doing. I am only a newcomer to the Linux ecosystem. 2 years of full-time Linux usage means nothing! But lo and behold, I have yet to have crashed my system beyond my ability to repair it outside of Arch Linux. Installing new drivers is, for one, something I DO NOT DO except for those that are advised for me on the driver control (GUI) application of the distros I'm using. A good way to stop complaining about Linux problems is stop being a arsehole to your computer. Know what you know and don't invent what you don't know. This advise applies equally to Windows users. And if you want to experiment, fine. That's great in fact! But don't complain and don't shift the blame. Experimenting with operating systems is no different than Mat Damon trying to create water on Mars. You'll get burned before you finally learn how to do it.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 11-02-2016 at 01:23 PM.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    And then you've encountered the true and underlying fundamental design flaw inherit to Linux.

    The middle-ground. A user who knows enough to screw themselves over but not enough to save themselves.
    This I can agree with, and I do think it has to do with the maturity of the desktop environment and the kernel itself. But I still say things are getting better.

    I had this Dell Inspiron 1500 laptop with an Atheros wifi mini-card in it. At the time, there was not out of the box support for it in Ubuntu. There were a few driver options at the time: you could do this ndiswrapper thing that worked with the Windows driver, ath5k, madwifi, probably a few others. Could never get any of them to work. I tried so hard. Was a few years before the out of the box support came. During that time though, I had switched back to Windows out of frustration.

    The "additional drivers" part in settings is one of Ubuntu's weaknesses still. It is hit and miss. It worked for that NVIDIA Quadro card I keep mentioning, but did not work for a wireless AC USB adapter (some sort of Realtek chipset).

    My view though is that Windows is pay for, and even then they are recording your information to make even more money off you. It should work out of the box and be fast with no hiccups.

    Linux is free and it's a mix of some commercially-supported dev and just joe coder on the weekend. I expect and am okay with the occasional bug, though I don't really run into much anymore except for certain drivers not working. My strategy with that has been simply to do the homework ahead of time to see if that hardware is going to work or not. When I go to buy any USB peripheral I Google the model number and "ubuntu" to see if people have had problems with it etc. That time spent is the cost of using Linux I suppose.

    Guess my ultimate comment is that once you find a combination of hardware that works good with Linux, I think Linux is superior to Windows on that set of hardware. Software-wise I rarely run into anything. Only thing I can recall that's happened lately is that when I upgraded Ubuntu, the GUI theme got screwed up so tab borders weren't being shown. All it took though was to change the theme to something else, then change it back. Simple.

  9. #39
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    Also, I'd like to point back to my political ideology vs. computer ideology argument and say that being proactive for a better OS tomorrow is as simple as taking the time to report a bug. You don't have to fix it, just report it. You can change Linux for the better by taking this small and simple step. One of the biggest problems is that people run into these things and then don't report it. +1 internets for going a step further and doing the proper bug report with logs and complete details.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    When you've only ever used Windows, every problem looks like it needs a GUI. But in the real world, many problems are much easier solved with a CLI. This isn't an either-or, it's different tools for different jobs. Do you think Microsoft implemented an Ubuntu subsystem for the lolz?
    Hey, I'm not here for the GUI vs CLI debate. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I'm not going to dispute that. But most non-technical users find command lines confusing and/or scary. That's just a fact. You're going to have to cater to that whether you like it or not. In fact, in the ideal world, IMO, we should have both a GUI and a CLI because some people find GUIs easier and some find CLI easier. We're just built differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    "They" have. Gentoo or Arch may not provide you with a GUI, but Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, etc does. You can do everything from installation to disk formatting to network and firewall configuration to office work to video editing to programming all without ever touching the terminal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It already has.

    I know you like GUIs. And I know that because this has been your argument for as many years as I know you. And you never quit repeating it. But discounting the fact there's plenty of material to argue with you about GUIs vs the command-line, Linux already caters for casual users and has done so for a quite a while. The most commonly used distributions nowadays work out of the box with no need for a casual user to interact with the terminal. Right after installation they are ready for music and video playback, internet access, office and games. Installation of new software is also done by GUI applications that manage the package system through an interface very similar to app stores with users reviews and single button installation and uninstallation clicks.

    Casual users aren't interested in system maintenance and Linux doesn't force it on them. Those days are gone. Me thinks you need a refresh course on what Linux distributions have become, because even someone like you, deadset on your logic with no room for anything else, must at least agree at some point that in 20 years things must change. And changed they have. A lot.
    I've seen Linux distros in the last 5 years, and maybe it's me just me, but I still find them terribly lacking in even the most basic things you do in Windows. Their "start menu" IMO is still an ancient relic. There's still no window grouping which we've had since Windows 7 (being Linux, I'd assume there's an option to disable it, though).

    I also find it so difficult to find options because they're so poorly organized and/or missing. Some simple stuff like changing region and keyboard layout seems incredibly difficult to me last time I tried.

    Maybe it's just my lack of knowledge of Linux. Maybe I'm just used to Windows. Who knows? But from my experience, what I said is still relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #41
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Mario, the way you said "MutantJohn," made me almost feel like I was in trouble. Man, you must be a formidable parent :P

    I agree though. People are equally likely to tinker and wreck their system in Windows as they are in Linux. Granted, I have one of those Arch horror stories. Sunday morning, normal `pacman -Syu` and then boom, invalid configuration written to a kernel-critical file that killed my Gnome shell. It was a bummer. I ran crying to the Arch Linux forums and then I learned that I'm not strong enough to be an Arch user lol.

  12. #42
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Hey, I'm not here for the GUI vs CLI debate. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I'm not going to dispute that. But most non-technical users find command lines confusing and/or scary. That's just a fact. You're going to have to cater to that whether you like it or not. In fact, in the ideal world, IMO, we should have both a GUI and a CLI because some people find GUIs easier and some find CLI easier. We're just built differently.





    I've seen Linux distros in the last 5 years, and maybe it's me just me, but I still find them terribly lacking in even the most basic things you do in Windows. Their "start menu" IMO is still an ancient relic. There's still no window grouping which we've had since Windows 7 (being Linux, I'd assume there's an option to disable it, though).

    I also find it so difficult to find options because they're so poorly organized and/or missing. Some simple stuff like changing region and keyboard layout seems incredibly difficult to me last time I tried.

    Maybe it's just my lack of knowledge of Linux. Maybe I'm just used to Windows. Who knows? But from my experience, what I said is still relevant.
    Grouping has actually been in Windows since XP, but anyway...
    Unity, KDE, Gnome, and more provide full docks.
    KDE, Mate, Cinnamon, XFCE, and more provide the classic window list (with grouping).

    Unity, KDE, Gnome, Cinnamon, and more provide "start" menus with search, categories, and favourites.
    KDE, Mate, Cinnamon, XFCE, and more provide "old style" "start" menu.
    AFAIK no DE supports Metro menu tiles, however KDE does support the non-menu equivalent in widgets.

    KDE, Gnome, Mate, Cinnamon, XFCE, and more have advanced keyboard layout configuration, some accessible in just 3 mouse clicks. Most of which provide way more layouts and customization options than Windows.
    Most (all?) DEs with GUI configuration have a typical categorical interface with search; comparable to Windows 7's.

    Your criticism is beginning to make me think you've never actually used a Linux box in your life.

  13. #43
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    I said grouping, but then I realized that's the wrong for what I actually meant. Sorry about that. I actually meant these small icons that you see in 7+, not the big rectangles that you see in Vista and before.
    I've never seen a desktop that provides such a feature or if there is one, then I've found no setting that actives such a behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  14. #44
    Lurking whiteflags's Avatar
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    Elysia, not to be rude, but what are you talking about? A picture is worth a thousand words.

  15. #45
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    Could Windows suck any more than it does?-screenshot-2016-11-02-22-50-48-jpg
    These icons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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