Thread: Could Windows suck any more than it does?

  1. #16
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    In that case, we should also discuss how frustrating and painful Linux can truly be. I also hate to say it but... drivers. I love Linux but it doesn't have the same commercial support and as such isn't a huge target for companies whose goal is to make money.
    See that's the part I don't understand about Linux criticism. The problems are prevalent across any brand of operating system. How many system upgrades have we heard since Windows 10 launch that have reportedly break users computers? Windows 10 seems to be the latest champion on these, but I'm sure if we look closely we'll find the same across all upgrades since Microsoft adopted the on-demand update model with Windows XP. Windows 7, that is nearly unanimously considered Microsoft's cream of the crop (except obviously by Microsoft itself), had plenty of them too. Boy, did I fixed broken updates on Windows 7!...

    Drivers are an argument I have less trouble swallowing up as an acceptable criticism. But even so we have to understand that as a problem largely independent of the operating system and the anger (and pressure) should instead be directed fully at the hardware manufacturers, either for their continued lack of support or the poor design of their drivers. In the meantime, we must accept and use the tool for what it is designed. It never ceases to irritate me all those flustered younglings who cry to the top of their lungs on how Linux sux because they can't make their stupid new shiny webcam to work on Linux. Only thing worse than that is hearing them complaining that linux is bad because not many triple-A games are made for it. And lets not even get started on those that try to run Linux and expect results on any recently released high-performance GPU. For crying out loud, don't do that on Linux! Hell, you'll probably even have problems doing that on Windows. Who hasn't?

    Linux is lucky that Windows make developing on it so abhorrent for anything that isn't a scripting language.
    Now that's the part we swap chairs. And while still disagreeing with you, it is my turn to criticize Linux. I wish I had an half as decent IDE on Linux as Microsoft Visual Studio. MVS is the citizen kane of IDEs and a true gem for developers with its own single set of (mostly) consistent tools that will guide a developer from design to packaging and distribution. There's nothing even remotely close to that on Linux. And while some may argue Linux doesn't need it, it is only because they forgot the years they spent tracking around the Linux ecosystem and learning the whole development stack and its set of inconsistent tools, each with their own semantics, different rules for configuration files and all its trying to understand all its derivatives or forks and whether they are better or not. Ad they forgot all their false starts, the frustrations of going back after they realize they made a bad choice, and the time they could have instead saved if development on Linux was just a little more consistent and bloody well better documented.

    And if by any chance you are criticizing the .Net framework, I still think it is a far superior framework to anything I have seen so far on Linux. It's not just that you will have to make choices between GTK or QT and that these frameworks only offer a very small subset of the Linux desktop development and much has to filled in. It's also how poorly documented development is and how hard an entry barrier it presents itself.

    I think the biggest advantage of Linux over Windows, concerning development, is the stability of its standards and interfaces. Once you learn them, you can rest assured you will be served by them for decades, with only minimum disruption and few incidents on which you will be forced to re-learn something new. Windows is in constant state of change, with new tech being hailed as the future, only to be driven out by other new tech. This can become exasperating and its a problem not only of the underlying development platform, but also of the UI.

    ---

    One of the big reasons I switched to Linux (the other big reason being Microsoft itself), was exactly my growing hunger for stability and predictability. Linux offers me what I consider a perfect computing environment, on which I can expect a good deal of reason and stricter adherence to old and tested workflows. On the other hand it maintains a huge dose of opportunities for intellectual stimulation, by a huge margin to Windows (but huge! it's almost a joke trying to compare both systems on this detail). It's as such the perfect operating system to grow old with, bar none.

    None of it has anything to do with webcams or GPUs, or printers or drivers, games or IDEs. I take its strengths and accept its weaknesses. Because it's become obvious for the past 5 years, perhaps more than any other period in the short story of the PC operating system industry, that Microsoft no longer offers a competing product.

    And let me tell you, especially on an office environment.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-24-2016 at 12:10 PM.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    One of the big reasons I switched to Linux (the other big reason being Microsoft itself), was exactly my growing hunger for stability and predictability. Linux offers me what I consider a perfect computing environment, on which I can expect a good deal of reason and stricter adherence to old and tested workflows. On the other hand it maintains a huge dose of opportunities for intellectual stimulation, by a huge margin to Windows (but huge! it's almost a joke trying to compare both systems on this detail). It's as such the perfect operating system to grow old with, bar none.

    None of it has anything to do with webcams or GPUs, or printers or drivers, games or IDEs. I take its strengths and accept its weaknesses. Because it's become obvious for the past 5 years, perhaps more than any other period in the short story of the PC operating system industry, that Microsoft no longer offers a competing product.

    And let me tell you, especially on an office environment.
    Very much agree. I love my Lubuntu that is completely minimalist and just works, and has pretty much since that flavor of Ubuntu was started. Ubuntu was rough for a while (ran into some desktop bugs, hardware issues with Atheros-based wifi that was very hard to get working), but IMO it's very good now. Just depends on your exact hardware I guess. I have an nVidia Quadro 2000 card at home that works perfectly with the binary blob from nVidia. I can play many 3D Steam games at pretty much the same speed/quality as on Windows. Huge milestone there IMO.

    Above all, I love: package managers, regardless of distro, and fantastic boot time. Also peace of mind knowing that it's not sucking up CPU or bandwidth spying on me in some way. Microsoft is just shameful. I can recall times that I did virus scans using their Security Essentials with the sample submission turned off, and the scan would freeze. As soon as you disconnected the internet, scan resumed. Be more obvious.... Just tired of Microsoft's abusive crap. As I said before, these are our computers and we do what we want and only what we want. Sick of companies trying to tie hands with their shenanigans.

  3. #18
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Yeah, Windows has bugs and issues. I regularly rag on it at work for its inability to do relatively simple tasks.

    But by that same token, in my 6 years of Linux'ing, typically whenever I've had an issue, it's usually a showstopper. Granted, most, if not all, of those issues were driver related. I agree, the vendors should write better drivers. But at the same time, they're a business and they need to follow the money. I don't fault them for that. The web cam thing is also another huge one. It kind of sucks but being under 30, being able to Skype is almost a prereq for a lot of job-related things.

    I'd be shocked if MSVS ever became intuitive for me. But maybe I'm just too used to having a raw compiler and generating binaries all willy nilly. And yes, the diverse ecosystem of IDEs does suck. Having one IDE used by everyone else is a huge boon. Which is probably also why it's easier to write drivers for Windows as well.

    Basically, my GPU is dead/dying and I'm thinking about a new build. It's gonna have Windows 10 and Ubuntu on it. I love me some Linux but, man, I feel like some of the things I've had to do with that thing... I'm a lot better with a command line than I ever wanted to be lol.

  4. #19
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    They should follow the money and pay some more attention to the techie types (on Linux) who are more likely to buy one of their high-end, high-profit-margin graphics cards...

  5. #20
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    I think windows gamers do that too. In fact, since most games are on Windows, I think it's more likely that people who buy those high-end graphics card run windows too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I think windows gamers do that too. In fact, since most games are on Windows, I think it's more likely that people who buy those high-end graphics card run windows too.
    Obvious comment is obvious.

    What I was getting at is that the Linux fanatics are going to go for the high-end graphics cards that have good support on Linux. If you only focus on Windows, you're cutting out some of your potential customers.

  7. #22
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    To me, high-end graphics cards are only worthwhile because of the general purpose computing capabilities. To make this even worse, Nvidia wrote an awesome but incompatible API with AMD graphics cards. This makes things worse because now you have two camps, OpenCL vs CUDA. And then this problem is only exacerbated by the fact that both manufacturers have to come up with drivers for multiple operating systems.

    Truth be told, I do wish that Nvidia in particular would really double-down on their CUDA stuff and focus on Linux more. But every time you wanna buy a GPU, they advertise a free video game. I think if you compare the amount of money they can make with videogames vs some programmers running really cool code, videogames just win.

    Linux is amazing because it embodies altruism and Windows is amazing because it's the opposite, it embodies the free market. Altruism vs capitalism, are they mutually exclusive?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epy View Post
    Obvious comment is obvious.

    What I was getting at is that the Linux fanatics are going to go for the high-end graphics cards that have good support on Linux. If you only focus on Windows, you're cutting out some of your potential customers.
    You have to consider the time of investment into drivers for an operating system only single digits of the market uses compared to one that 90% of the market uses. If the potential customers are too few, it's just not worth the investment. They're companies. They're in it for money in the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #24
    Lurking whiteflags's Avatar
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    Sure but either way drivers get made. Common sense would figure if you decided to do it( maybe because you got funded by a third party) you would do a job good enough that, if you buy the right hardware, it would work. I'm surprised you aren't pro-consumerist about this. I doubt I will be convinced that substandard work is acceptable because of some cost-benefit reason.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 10-25-2016 at 01:42 PM.

  10. #25
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Oh, I don't think anyone is saying that it's "acceptable" by any means. Oh God, no.

    But I think what we're saying is, we get it why it is the way it is. There's a million things I wish I could code at work but I can't do it because it's either not profitable or there's more pressing things to attend to. It's unfortunate in a lot of ways and sometimes it's just nice to lament...

    That being said, I will be looking into Linux compatibility when buying my next GPU. I've heard good things about Nvidia's fork of Visual Studio (anything's better than their Eclipse version) so I may wind up actually switching to developing CUDA on Windows if I can't find a suitable GPU.

    It sucks but that's just the way it goes. I love Linux but I love programming more than I do my own operating system. I can't have the best of both worlds so I remain a young man torn.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    You have to consider the time of investment into drivers for an operating system only single digits of the market uses compared to one that 90% of the market uses. If the potential customers are too few, it's just not worth the investment. They're companies. They're in it for money in the end.
    I understand the point you're trying to make, but as a counter ask: if this is true, then why did nVidia bother to make a driver for my outdated workstation (non-gaming) graphics card? These companies are already putting in the effort in varying amounts, they just need to go further in.

    As a graphics card company, I would be recognizing that gaming on Linux is growing more and more popular. Some indie game devs are targeting cross-platform backends to help make this happen, but larger game companies are also making the effort too. I have Saints Row 3 on my Linux machine at home. That's a game that was also on Xbox and PlayStation.

    A lot of people don't make the full switch to Linux because of gaming. That may change within the next decade.

    ----------------------

    As an aside, I have to comment that I'm surprised at any pro-Windows sentiment from anyone here. Here's why:

    Politically, I see democrats/liberals as idealists who think that people are basically good, and conservatives/republicans as realists who acknowledge that a good deal of people are ..........ty to each other and will always be.

    In recent discussions, it's pretty apparent that I'm one of the few or only politically conservative people here, out of those who have spoken out anyway. So in being surrounded by idealists, I'd expect others to have the starry-eyed vision of the future where we can tell Microsoft to f itself and have freedom to use our computers the way we want with other operating systems, not necessarily Linux.

    History has shown that Microsoft/Windows has become crappier over time, and that trend is unlikely to reverse itself. Similarly, history has also shown that people are ..........ty to each other since the beginning, and that's not likely to change either for many, many reasons. I believe this as a realist political conservative.

    However, when it comes to software/OSes, I am a starry-eyed idealist because it is a fact it's just a matter of writing the code and fixing bugs, even if there is a huge amount of it to do. It is 100% possible, through the actions of yourself and others who code, to make Linux awesome and to make things work nicely on it.

    You can code anything you want, but you can't change how people think. This is my belief.
    ----------------------

    @MutantJohn: to my knowledge, nVidia was market-first with CUDA. CUDA came out in 2007, OpenCL came out 2 years later. nVidia didn't screw up, they helped pave the way for GPU computing. Also, I disagree that Windows embodies free market, they force choices and therefore do not. They change the Windows API nearly every version (and try to force you to upgrade) and make older software not work, forcing you to buy more software for their crap OS.

    P.S. For the record, I am not of the GNU camp who thinks all software should be FOSS. I am of the OSI camp that acknowledges and desires FOSS to co-exist with closed-source software.

  12. #27
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    In addition, commercial interests are driven by more than the number of units in a market. Linux smaller size becomes irrelevant when a company obtains a dominant share within. Which is the case of NVIDIA. Large businesses aren't run just by simple arithmetic, and factors other than revenue contribute to the investment on a market, provided a company has the financial cushion to do it. Which NVIDIA does. The Windows market helps finance the Linux investment and has allowed NVIDIA to become dominant on this operating system.

    Another factor is the rapid changing landscape of computing devices. When taken together, smartphones, tablets, PC, consoles, ... Windows-based systems have been loosing ground. They represent today just 11% of all devices, with UNIX-based system (Apple + Linux) dominating the market. Worse, the still dominating position of Windows on the desktop market alone is nonetheless threatened by the constant climb of Unix and Unix-like systems as well as the decline in PC sales. Windows isn't growing in share. The days of 1% Linux market share are gone. Some reports have been putting Linux specifically at 2.5% and Unix and Unix-like systems (including Linux) at 11%.

    As the markets continue to show an tendency to homogenize themselves around Unix-like systems, hardware (and software) companies will continue to adapt in an attempt to supply it. It's no secret that the drivers issues of Linux today pale in comparison to just 10 years ago. And it's been telling the push towards Linux of the gaming industry from software developers to online distributors. And projects like Vulkan aim to patch the missing link between the GPU and the Linux system by attempting to provide a interface at the same level of DirectX. Within Linux itself there's been all sorts of bowel movements to modernize certain of its aspects, including the ancient X system.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-25-2016 at 02:36 PM.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #28
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    @MutantJohn: to my knowledge, nVidia was market-first with CUDA. CUDA came out in 2007, OpenCL came out 2 years later. nVidia didn't screw up, they helped pave the way for GPU computing. Also, I disagree that Windows embodies free market, they force choices and therefore do not. They change the Windows API nearly every version (and try to force you to upgrade) and make older software not work, forcing you to buy more software for their crap OS.
    Didn't know the history! Thank you for clarifying! I feel a lot better about being a CUDA kid now.

    As for the politics, eh. I think I'm a left-leaning centrist. I like to view humans as threads all working for the process of the United States.

    I'm also not really stoked on Windows either. It's just... After over half a decade, I'm worn down lol. Linux fatigue is real.

  14. #29
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    So, the whole "not enough users" argument isn't going to hold for long...

    https://www.netmarketshare.com/opera...10&qpcustomd=0

    Linux: 2.18%
    OS X: 2.74%

  15. #30
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Oh boy. That's pretty... Well, that's pretty small. More XP users than Linux ones, ugh.

    Maybe we should start introducing Linux to kids at a younger age? I feel like I would've gravitated towards Linux if I had been introduced to it sooner. Of course, the real issue is that kids like games and stuff like that which Linux has only just begun to really support.

    But to help rag on Windows, my gf was playing Skyrim last night and I'm convinced she straight-up ran into a kernel crash or other some such thing. Her entire system was brought down and then Windows told her it was creating an error log to send back to Microsoft. In some ways, her crash will prevent another's.

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