Thread: Advice on future project

  1. #1
    Its hard... But im here swgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,687

    Advice on future project

    Hi Guys!

    A little while back I made a thread regarding Princess Daisy
    not being in her own video game. Well, After giving it a lot of
    thought, several people I work with and myself are going to
    attempt to create one of our own. We have the general idea
    and story written down on paper and decided on using Lua to
    handle the event script. The base code will probably be C with
    Allegro as the main gaming library.

    I wanted to know if you can help clear up these things:

    1. If it is personal use game and never released retail
    are we breaking any copyright laws from Nintendo by using
    her character image and samples from the Mario universe?

    2. We pondered over if C is the "right" language - but considering
    we are using Allegro as the GL it seemed to fit. Can you see any
    benefits of using C++ or perhaps C#/Unity for an easier ride?

    3. It's probably going to take a long time to create - as bits and
    peices will be done when we can get together as a team etc - is
    the time to develop going to run into any hardware issues with
    technology platforms etc?

    The most important one is obviously the copyright one - if what
    we are planning is indeed a fringe - then it needs to be stopped
    before it begins. I have looked online and cannot find any
    official statement by Nintendo themselves. A few people have made
    Mario clone games however.

    Any help greatly received!

    Ada x
    Double Helix STL

  2. #2
    Informer -Adrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    817
    If it is personal use game and never released retail
    are we breaking any copyright laws from Nintendo by using
    her character image and samples from the Mario universe?
    Not to rain on your parade, but to my knowledge, Nintendo are quite happy to protect their IP even against hobbyists, if necessary, by suing. I really like your idea, but that's a show-stopper I'd say.

    Since you're a fan of Princess Daisy specifically, I reckon an altered universe with only vague resemblance it out of the question?

  3. #3
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Angola
    Posts
    8,445
    You could try to stop being a fan of products made by companies that so aggressively work against anyone even mentioning the name or going to a fan party with posters bearing the name and images of its products. That's Nintendo and that's the type of company that sure could use some education by suffering a tremendous drop in their fanbase and consequently their sales.

    Besides, you have more to gain personally by leaving others' ideas behind and coming up with your own creation. Artistic expression is best served not as an imitation. Who knows, maybe you come up with something so engaging and original that will plant you squarely in the market. You think that's not how many of these companies emerged?

    Anyways, you will face a big problem with Nintendo aggressive copyright policy. Even before starting you should exchange some emails with them (and save them!) asking for permission.

    ...
    C is going to be a challenge as far as game development is concerned. But certainly doable. It's just that OOP does integrate well with game development (one of the few areas OOP serves a clear and beneficial purpose).

    But the important thing to keep in mind is where your know-how reside. If you and your friend are at your best with C, that's your language and no other. Besides, Allegro and Lua are good companions for 2D development in C.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-11-2016 at 07:07 AM.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #4
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,665
    This thread is relevant for me. I was actually thinking about taking the card game out of FF VIII and making it into a phone game.

  5. #5
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Inside my computer
    Posts
    24,654
    As for the copyright issue... yes, as others have said, that would be a problem. I believe that simply using someone else's creation without permission--regardless of WHAT it's being used or HOW it's being used--is a copyright violation. You could certainly appeal to fair use, but I don't think that's going to work if you extensively use others' work without any modifications. Nintendo are quite aggressive on chasing down fan-base projects using their IP and shutting them down. Sorry.

    As for C... I can see that being a real challenge. C just does not have the tools that modern applications use. C is more for environments where there's not enough demand or resources to put effort and money into making a compiler for a "higher" language. Most AAA games today use C++ simply because C does not have the tools and other languages such as C# is not close enough to the hardware for real speed efficiency. What you should use is really up to you. I'd recommend something other than C. C# or C++ are both fine as far as language choice goes, but you need a good game engine/library, as that might just limit your choices. I'd definitely recommend putting effort into learning C++, C# or whatever other language you choose to make a game, though. C just won't cut it IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  6. #6
    CIS and business major
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    287
    If this is going to be a long project, be very careful of infringing on a company like Nintendo's copyrighted protected material. If you can't find a good lawyer to give you legal advice on this matter, I would say you shouldn't use this character in your upcoming game project.

  7. #7
    Its hard... But im here swgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,687
    Thank you so much for all the useful advice guys - I really appreciate it all

    I've read and re-read some copyright notices posted on id's Quake source code and it does
    seem pretty much rock solid - so I am guessing Nintendo are not going to budge if their policy
    is the same or very similar. Fair usage I have considered Elysia, but TBH I feel Nintendo won't
    give us the freedom we need even with a tiny percentage of material being expressed.

    After sitting down with our little "team", I have decided to go ahead with the general idea of
    what we had - a female lead - but not using any Nintendo IP's at all. It's a massive shame really.
    There was no malice in what we had planned for the game, and to be fair, WTF Nintendo... all fan's
    want to do is show loyalty to your company and expressing their own knowledge for the source and
    material. There is no harm in that. I guess they are just suborn.

    Anyways, again thank you so much people. I think you are all correct, and it's not worth the legal issue
    of courts etc.

    As for the language choice - the only OOP language I have any real experience in is Java, but I sort
    of have a love-hate relationship with Oracle, but it's a bit "high level" for the means. C++ will be
    considered if the boiler plate code is not coming together in C on a procedural level. I'll post updates,
    screenshots and the sort when we really get into the meat of it.

    Ada x
    Double Helix STL

  8. #8
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Inside my computer
    Posts
    24,654
    Well, you know, it's not about whether Nintendo will accept fair usage or not. It is fair usage we're talking about, so it's a fundamental right. If they won't listen, you can drag them to court and if it is really fair usage, you would win. BUT, considering the scope, I highly doubt it would be acknowledged as fair usage.

    Many companies try to protect their IP, and Nintendo is no different. However, I can agree that they are overzealous in trying to protect it. It's a shame, really.

    As for the language... this is my opinion, but I still think you're going about it wrong. The fact that you're considering C and only willing to branch out if it's not good enough means you'll be doing it wrong from the start. Games are highly OOP, so starting off with procedural will probably mean you're going to have to rewrite the ground if it turns out you aren't happy with it. I would also disagree with the fact that Java is a bit "high level" for the means. When it comes to complex projects, there's not "enough" high level languages. Of course, when we're talking about games, we also talk about performance and the only language that satisfies extreme performance and high level is C++, which is why a lot of game studios use the language.

    I would really consider going all out on OOP from the beginning. A game is complex. You're going to need the bells and whistles and abstractions from the start. See it as an opportunity to learn a new language, whatever it may be.

    And good luck! A game is not easy to make at all, and it could take years before it's finished, or gotten to the point where it might be called a "game" (meaning that most gameplay mechanics are implemented).
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #9
    CIS and business major
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    287
    SWGH, good idea. If there is any doubt in your mind, you are better off not using the Nintendo character in your game. It's a long project, and you don't want to break any copyrights by using a commercial character in your game. And also, you may one day consider distributing the game to others after it is built, and in that case, you can safely distribute the game or its code to others without any sort of possible legal ramifications.

  10. #10
    and the hat of copycat stevesmithx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    587
    I am surprised no one has cited Nintendo's suing spree on its fanbase.
    Here is one for start: A History of Nintendo Fanworks Cancelled by Nintendo Legal Action - Gaming Reinvented

    IOW, you have just saved yourselves and your team, a metric ton of time and headache by asking the right questions at the beginning of your venture. Lucky you.

  11. #11
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,665
    I agree with what Elysia said. Games match to the OOP paradigm pretty well. You're sort of doing yourself a disservice by not taking advantage of C++ if you're considering writing it in C. C++ is nice because it doesn't get in your way or force you to program in one particular style so you can OO when you need to and do w/e you want elsewhere.

  12. #12
    Its hard... But im here swgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,687
    Even more help - wow thanks guys so much

    I had another conversation last night with the other team members and after a long
    discussion over the pros and cons of C vs C++ vs Allegro vs Lua we have finally decided
    to go with C++ as the primary development language for the project. Lua seems to fit
    well with C++ as it does C - and a few of the members seem to be quite good at Direct X.
    As for the engine, Orgre is one that came up which seemed pretty interesting.

    I would LOVE to use the Blizzard Engine but yeah right like they will ever make that public...
    The idea of Unity has been ditched as C# is out of the window now also. So what we have
    "almost" finalized is:

    * Base Language - C++
    * Engine - Ogre (not 100% decided - this has to be integrated with the API)
    * Event Script - Lua
    * API Multimedia - Direct X (version TBD)
    * Game Type - 2D Platform
    * OS - Windows (currently)

    Of course - these are not totally set in stone, but it's the nearest collective agreement
    we came to. As for the Engine, we obviously need to use a fully public one - hence why
    Ogre is being considered. It's only a 2D game so no need for something overly complex such
    as Havock or Unreal.

    Anyways, quick update. Any other advice on our choices/suggestions welcome

    Ada x
    Double Helix STL

  13. #13
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Angola
    Posts
    8,445
    Quote Originally Posted by swgh View Post
    * Engine - Ogre (not 100% decided - this has to be integrated with the API)
    If you plan to stay within 2D development, you won't gain much from using OGRE which is a 3D focused engine. And will also lose the ability to extend your Lua scripting to interface with the engine because, contrary to Allegro, OGRE only supports C++ for scripting.

    This isn't necessarily a problem if your scripting is going to be limited to game functionality. But OGRE takes care of so many aspects of game designing (with data types of all sorts and functionality ranging from physics to AI and even data storage) that you will be tempted to move most of your game into OGRE type structure and your Lua scripting reach will be very limited.

    Allegro still sounds like a better choice. Unless you decided to go 3D.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-14-2016 at 04:54 AM.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  14. #14
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,665
    No cross-platform support? T_T

    Are there any 2d game engines that you can use that work cross-platform? I'm not sure about the OpenGL vs DirectX thing though...

  15. #15
    Its hard... But im here swgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,687
    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    No cross-platform support? T_T

    Are there any 2d game engines that you can use that work cross-platform? I'm not sure about the OpenGL vs DirectX thing though...
    Yeah there is one. It's Oxygine - 2D C++ game framework

    Been reading about it and it actually seems really user-friendly.

    Mario - we've ditched Ogre on the advice at the present moment two peeps are working re-writing
    parts of the story and getting started on the UML diagrams before any solid code is written. On a side
    note - the game is going to take a long time to develop but we are all very confident we can do it.
    If I want to copyright my own final source code - do I have to contact the GPL? (General Public License)
    and pay a fee?

    Again thanks so much for all the advice.

    Ada x
    Double Helix STL

Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. Solar System Project - Looking for advice
    By dwlb in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-10-2013, 01:25 AM
  2. Solar System Project - Looking for advice
    By dwlb in forum C++ Programming
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-03-2013, 11:05 PM
  3. Advice needed for how to approach project
    By The111 in forum C Programming
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 07-13-2011, 06:28 AM
  4. c++ project advice
    By ecd in forum C++ Programming
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-09-2003, 12:34 PM
  5. need advice on project
    By lambs4 in forum C Programming
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-23-2003, 01:06 PM

Tags for this Thread