Thread: Cutting the lawn grasses.

Originally Posted by GReaper

Look, since we already got here, I'll express my opinion on the subject:

Religion is largely something that is imposed to you from a very young age. The young, immature mind of a child is pretty susceptible to suggestions( e.g. Santa Claus ), especially from trusted figures/authorities such as parents, teachers etc. They are not to blame for believing in the nonsense. Nothing is wrong with their brain. If you were raised believing in ghosts, you would believe in ghosts for at least a big portion of your life. Mental illness is "any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behavior are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people".

Please don't equate fanatics/radicals with everyone else, that doesn't help anyone.

You have a point there. But honestly GReaper, you can hardly think of a better subject than Religion, in any shape or creed, to start a discussion on "any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behavior are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people". Despite the various layers of abnormality or caused suffering, or lack thereof, that we can attribute to this or that person, you can always end with a bird's eye view of Religion that boils down to the essence of evil.

There's two conflicting notions to Religion that will always make this subject controversial; The individual and the collective use of Religion. Or, if you wish the personal and the organized Religion.

A balanced individual will take religion as an essential good. Like you do. He may or not follow its creed and participate in its rituals, but ultimately Religion for him is a source of comfort and inspiration in order to feel good and conduct himself in this life. That is all fine. Individually religion is apparently serving its purpose. Making us better humans and all that jazz.

But Religion, in full conflict with its core principles, is in fact not like that. Religion is an organized movement. A social construct that can seemingly only exist by spreading itself and build a complex set of social rules and the necessary hierarchies within to keep the organization alive. Furthermore, the religious organization if fundamentally intolerant of any distinct views. It won't accept infidels even if to convert them. First you convert, only then you are accepted. But more importantly, for the vast majority of religions in the world, including the major ones, you must be a member of the organization and exercise your cult as a member of the group, or you won't gain the same level of acceptance as those who do.

And all that indoctrination that you take with you, that you try to use personally and that as you say try to pass on to your children, that indoctrination is passed to you from that organized movement you call your faith. Passed to you in full balance with that organization social and political motivations at the time.

It is this nature of religion that has been the cause of much suffering in human history. Organized religion, as a social construct, immediately falls prey to all the trappings of organized society, like the will for power and the so-human tendency for segregation and separatism, and the consequent demarcation of spiritual and physical borders. And because of this, and because of the power that religious thought has amassed through the ages, Religion has killed and dislodged more people in history than any other human construction, being alone responsible for the vast majority of wars fought in human history. But also having broken homes, separated lovers from the loved ones, husbands from wives, parents from children, friends from other friends, and essentially being a source of evil.

You may to want to dissociate yourself from that, assuming religion as an essential good because how you personally take your dose of it. But your creed, your belief, is not Religion. And it is not the religion we are talking about in here.

But it is. When you say to someone, who just happens to believe in something you are rather sure is fictional, that they are mentally ill just for believing it, yes of course it's an insult. And a very deliberate one too. It's another of those dismissals many people are good at, trying to silence the opposing view by declaring their victory... Also known as "ad-hominem" attack.

Let me tell you a bit of my experience living in a quite religious country( on the surface, at least ), Greece:
A good 6 years ago, I went to university. There, I met all kinds of new people, and made many new friends. At one time, me and a friend of mine were chit-chatting on various topic. Religion came up, and he asked if I believed there is a god. I answered that yes, I did believe in some kind of god, although I don't remember what I said exactly. After my answer, he said "Really? You do?!", and I said "Well, yeah of course, don't you?" and he replied "No, I don't believe a god exists". At that very moment, something struck me and I thought to myself "Can you believe that? Is that an option?". Up to that point, nobody had ever mentioned that possibility to me, everyone around me were 100% positive there was a god, so I had no reason to question it.

Now the question to all those who equate faith with mental illness: Was I mentally ill before that time? If yes, in what way exactly? Remember that up to then I had no internet, so no full access to human knowledge etc.

Oh, this comment was directed to @whiteflags.

On what Mario F. said, I agree completely. I don't know why, blanket statements always rub me the wrong way, that's why I wrote all that above.

Originally Posted by GReaper

But it is. When you say to someone, who just happens to believe in something you are rather sure is fictional, that they are mentally ill just for believing it, yes of course it's an insult. And a very deliberate one too. It's another of those dismissals many people are good at, trying to silence the opposing view by declaring their victory... Also known as "ad-hominem" attack.

[...] blanket statements always rub me the wrong way, that's why I wrote all that above.

Some insults we must learn to take. When I'm sometimes told I'm the archetypal arsehole because I don't mince words, I'm always ready for a conflict of words (only words), and I'm quick to start or join on heated arguments, I accept it. That does make me a bit of an arsehole; Society dictates we should be nice to each other and avoid certain behavioral patterns that lead to the discomfort of others. And I apparently don't care.

I don't think there is nothing of a blanket statement on Salem's words. Believing in fictional characters is weird and your mental health will be questioned. The only reason you take insult is because society has made you believe that in the particular case of faith, believing in fictional characters is ok. But for someone who's been freed of that trapping, it is very hard to think of it in any other way. You are mentally ill. Just like I'm an arsehole.

Your mental illness may be mild in comparison to other mentally ill people. It's called Error. I'm mentally ill too. Whiteflags is mentally ill. And Salem's definitely mentally ill! Every time someone takes a strong and inflexible stand on a matter that cannot gather a consensus, the other side will not be able to associate itself with that thought pattern. For all matters and purposes that person is Wrong, living in Error, and thinking Incorrectly. Mentally challenged, ill. Truman is mentally ill, as are the Brexiters. But you can bet I'm mentally ill to them, when I take a strong and inflexible stand against their views. They just can't understand how can I think differently.

I cannot understand how or why you choose to believe as you do. It is so hard for me to even grasp the idea that a sane person can in fact accept the idea that there's a fantastic world populated by fantastic entities, without immediately questioning the whole thing as absurd, that I cannot view it as any other way than a mental illness. And next time, when someone comes to you and tells you they are hearing the voice of God and it is telling them to buy a Mercedes Benz, it is ok for you to call them mentally ill. As I'm sure you would.

Originally Posted by whiteflags

Thanks for pointing out me specifically. I never called you mentally ill. Next time I have an opinion I just won't say it. I don't have time to waste offending people unnecessarily. Oh by the way, thank you for making everything about you.

Yeah, you definitely misunderstood what I said. I didn't mean to target you, it's just that I wanted to expand on what you said, but many others replied in the meantime and I thought my reply may lose its meaning.

Dammit, I knew it from the very beginning that I shouldn't have said anything! I really love this forum and it'd be the last place to argue religion in... Forget it.