Lol @ Microsoft

**Yarin** · 06-20-2016

Originally Posted by Elysia

The amazement never stops. If there was an alternative to Windows, I'd change to it in a heartbeat.

Oh alright, I'll bite...

Use Linux. (or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus systemd plus Linux)

Unixphiles tend to work without IDEs, but I know you want an IDE. There are numerous IDE options for Linux, from the lightweight IDEs like Code::Blocks, to heavyweights like Eclipse and CLion.
But, I know you like Visual Studio. You may of heard that Microsoft recently released VS Code... it runs on Linux. It's a lightweight IDE in vein of Atom, Brackets, or Sublime, but better; and with intellisense.

I doubt you use IE/Edge (even the most ardent MS enthusiast can't stand it); so you wouldn't notice any change at all there.
If you're used to MS Office, you'll find Open/Libre Office very easy to use, no headache at all.
I don't know what your workflow looks like, but finding replacements for most things are very easy, and usually many times for personalizable.

You've casually mentioned Linux driver problems in the past (I don't know serious you were about that, but).
But today 99% of your hardware is going to be plug & play. And for the other 1%, the vendor will mostly provide a compatible driver anyway.
I've only ever had one piece of hardware not work on Linux... because it was pretty special piece of hardware, provided by a smaller vendor that didn't want you to leave their walled garden. But even then, it was only a minor inconvenience, since it still worked flawlessly in Virtual Box.

I know you've said you don't want to relearn your system. But you have to know that you can't _ever_ move to something else if you're not willing to learn it.
The only system you wouldn't have to learn, is Faux-Windows, and then, why switch in the first place.
As the saying goes, You can't take a bath without getting wet.

So go, Elysia, download an ISO, put it on a thumb drive, boot it up, and look around.

**Mario F.** · 06-20-2016

Originally Posted by Yarin

So go, Elysia, download an ISO, put it on a thumb drive, boot it up, and look around.

You might as well tell a cat to take a bath.

Some people will just stick to their ways like a vice. Even in the face of all the damage it is causing them. I'm not talking of those who don't care. I'm talking of those who see the damage being done but will still hold fast to their ways, because fear is a powerful drive. For which reason, you also might as well tell a cat staring at your headlights to get out of the way. He won't.

Over the years Microsoft staged a perfect approach to marketing that ensures the continued existence of numerous cats. And while before there could be many arguments for Microsoft Windows sole adoption, today that is definitely not the case. In fact, once one fights the vice, conquers the fear and wins over the ignorance they cause, one finds the UNIX-based world is today a much better and powerful experience than anything else being offered combined. Today Windows has nothing on Linux, having been surpassed on every single aspect of OS usage, including the old arguments of hardware drivers, desktop environments, or IDEs, retaining only a (shrinking) distinction in its ability to run games. Heck, King Kong ain't got nothing on Linux!

But cats will be cats. They won't bath no matter how many times you try and they will always end under your rubber tires.

**Epy** · 06-20-2016

The Linux desktop is actually quite good at the moment I think, shortly after this post I switched back to Lubuntu for the host OS (instead of Win10 + Lubuntu in VMWare). Single-click to use the proprietary video driver for my nVidia Quadro 4000 card, my USB headset works as does audio through the graphics card connection, wifi USB adapters work (except for this rosewill one which is a POS anyway). Lubuntu boots faster and doesn't share the same hiccup that the Windows driver for my wifi adapter has where it decides it needs to connect/disconnect 3 times before being normal.

Was pleasantly surprised to install Steam with only one hiccup (had to move one .so to get things to work right), and there are actually a few games that work (L4D2, Project Zomboid, others work with Wine installed supposedly). PZ runs near windows speed with the proprietary nVidia driver. I'm sure I can still get it working better. I think I need to pick a different JDK as well (PZ is written in Java).

Things have come a long way since I first tried it out in 2007 or so.

**Epy** · 06-20-2016

P.S. If you don't like Linux and want a Windows alternative, keep an eye on ReactOS: Front Page | ReactOS Project

Idea is to make a Windows clone. They have their own code + some from Wine.

I tried it when it first came out and it was in a ........-poor state then, (looks like it still is), but if they ever get off the ground, the idea is solid.

**Elysia** · 06-22-2016

If Linux was a practical alternative to Windows, I'd consider switching. But as far as I know, it's not.

The problem areas are:
- Linux UI is just way behind Windows (How many distro have Win7-style taskbar, as compared to Vista-style?). The Win7 parts of the UI still left are often way superior to Linux.
- Too many helpful/practical settings are just missing in the UI (sorry, can't remember what) or hidden too well
- Linux is CLI-first, UI second (if at all). Many utilities for Linux just assumes you're going to use command line and don't bother with a UI. This is precisely the other way around than how Windows does it.
- Compatibility! How many Windows programs runs on Linux or have alternatives? Do Microsoft Access have a Linux version/alternative? I don't like it either, but I'm stuck with it atm.
- Uncertainity: Will my future apps, games and hardware run on Linux? Am I going to be locked out of these things because I'm running Linux? Yeah, there's Wine, but that's just emulation. It might work. It might not.
- Underdog: Windows is > 90% of the market, so apps and games are coming to Windows first, Linux... later, if ever. Not talking about research project and programming libraries.

I can deal with Windows for now. It's better than the alternative right now, I think.

**Yarin** · 06-22-2016

Originally Posted by Elysia

- Linux UI is just way behind Windows (How many distro have Win7-style taskbar, as compared to Vista-style?).

KDE has a pseudo-dock, like Win7. GNOME and Unity have fully fledged docks, like OS X. XFCE and Cinnamon have the same kind of taskbar as WinXP.

Originally Posted by Elysia

The Win7 parts of the UI still left are often way superior to Linux.

"often", sure. Who cares about the rest, use the best. Unless you want something really obscure, you can have what ever UI you want; in contrast, the configuration options Windows gives you is laughable.

Originally Posted by Elysia

- Too many helpful/practical settings are just missing in the UI (sorry, can't remember what) or hidden too well
- Linux is CLI-first, UI second (if at all). Many utilities for Linux just assumes you're going to use command line and don't bother with a UI. This is precisely the other way around than how Windows does it.

You can accomplish most everyday tasks without ever touching a terminal. It's true that much of Linux's power is exclusively at the terminal. But I wouldn't have it any other way! if it was like Windows, you wouldn't be able to whip out a script in 5 minutes that does your menial task for you. Automating on Windows is like digging a tunnel with a wiffle ball; you can do it, in theory, but what are you doing with your life?

Originally Posted by Elysia

- Compatibility! How many Windows programs runs on Linux or have alternatives?

Most. The gap closes more and more every year. Tell me, what cool exciting new technology is being developed exclusively for Windows? Windows innovation is done; the OS is running 100% on inertia.

Originally Posted by Elysia

Do Microsoft Access have a Linux version/alternative? I don't like it either, but I'm stuck with it atm.

There sure is.

Originally Posted by Elysia

- Uncertainity: Will my future apps, games and hardware run on Linux?

That's up to you. Stop writing your software to be Windows-only, and stop supporting companies that still do. Then the future is bright.

Originally Posted by Elysia

Am I going to be locked out of these things because I'm running Linux? Yeah, there's Wine, but that's just emulation. It might work. It might not.

There's nothing but the most obscure stuff that won't work in Wine or VirtualBox. But even so, you should instead opt to use better wares where possible.

Originally Posted by Elysia

- Underdog: Windows is > 90% of the market,

We are borg. Resistance is futile.

Originally Posted by Elysia

so apps and games are coming to Windows first, Linux... later, if ever. Not talking about research project and programming libraries.

Most new technologies come to Unix first, actually, since most innovators aren't running Windows anymore.

Originally Posted by Elysia

I can deal with Windows for now. It's better than the alternative right now, I think.

At this rate, I think Microsoft can kill your family, and you'd still say, "Well, they're better than the alternative...".

**stevesmithx** · 06-22-2016

Originally Posted by Elysia

there's Wine, but that's just emulation. It might work. It might not.

Nitpick: WINE - WINE is not an emulator. Linux has way too many cool recursive acronyms.

I have to ask, Do you work for Microsoft? I am just surprised that how one can how such a mastery over the mother of all complex languages (C++) and still hate CLI.

**laserlight** · 06-22-2016

Originally Posted by Elysia

Linux is CLI-first, UI second (if at all). Many utilities for Linux just assumes you're going to use command line and don't bother with a UI.

Actually, that statement is self-contradictory: CLI is a UI. You probably meant either GUI or novice-friendly UX (i.e., the CLI user experience is typically not novice-friendly).

Guest · 06-22-2016

To chime in on UI matters, I want to point out that...

Originally Posted by Yarin

XFCE and Cinnamon have the same kind of taskbar as WinXP.

... is one of the reasons I appreciate Linux. As new GUIs get increasingly weird and (imo) counterproductive, I'm not being forced to abandon the classic Desktop that I've become accustomed to over the last decade.

And someone tell my why they made Window 10 so ugly – the GUI looks like it's made of placeholders. Maybe that's fashionable and looks good on high-dpi displays, but I find myself having to read every label I click on, because everything looks the same.

p.s. I think we had this thread before

**phantomotap** · 06-22-2016

And someone tell my why they made Window 10 so ugly – the GUI looks like it's made of placeholders. Maybe that's fashionable and looks good on high-dpi displays, but I find myself having to read every label I click on, because everything looks the same.

O_o

You should look around for "gtk+ superflat themes" if you want to see ugly.

I counted once out of curiosity when I found a theme which had, no joke, been called "The best theme you'll ever use.". The theme used a total of two colors without any shading, shadows, or other layering indicators.

Soma

**MutantJohn** · 06-22-2016

I actually like the Windows 10 UI. To me, it's intuitive. But that's just good fortune that their UI engineers seem to think like I do. My gf's computer runs Windows 10 and I run Ubuntu 16.04 on my desktop. I haven't tried any development on her computer (she said it'd be okay [her GPU is waaaaaaaay better than mine]) but overall, Windows 10 isn't half-bad.

Oh wait, the development thing is huge though. The greatest challenge I've faced at work yet was installing a C++ compiler (we use Windows 7). Linux is the king of development, imo. Windows is far better suited for all non-development tasks.

**Elysia** · 06-22-2016

Originally Posted by Yarin

That's up to you. Stop writing your software to be Windows-only, and stop supporting companies that still do. Then the future is bright.

I don't really write a lot of software. I do it most for hobby purposes, and sure enough, I usually use portable libraries, etc, but I don't bother setting up a linux toolchain. And stop supporting companies that don't support Linux? That's going to be a little tougher.

There's nothing but the most obscure stuff that won't work in Wine or VirtualBox. But even so, you should instead opt to use better wares where possible.

I'm not going to run apps in virtual machines.

We are borg. Resistance is futile.

If Linux would overtake and become a better Windows, I'd be happy, so don't you resistance is futile me.

At this rate, I think Microsoft can kill your family, and you'd still say, "Well, they're better than the alternative...".

You realize how much work it is to switch to another OS? Relearn all the things you've learned, find new software, etc, etc? There's a reason I don't want to switch. I'm lazy. I can't bother researching this stuff.

Originally Posted by stevesmithx

Nitpick: WINE - WINE is not an emulator. Linux has way too many cool recursive acronyms.

What else would it be? It translates Windows APIs into Linux APIs because they don't work natively. Sounds like an emulator to me.

I have to ask, Do you work for Microsoft? I am just surprised that how one can how such a mastery over the mother of all complex languages (C++) and still hate CLI.

No, I don't. I have no ties with Microsoft whatsoever. C++ interested me at young age, that's all. And what you use for a long time, you get good at. That's all.

Originally Posted by Guest

And someone tell my why they made Window 10 so ugly – the GUI looks like it's made of placeholders. Maybe that's fashionable and looks good on high-dpi displays, but I find myself having to read every label I click on, because everything looks the same.

I haven't the faintest idea why they think it's a good idea to create a GUI that looks like a 10-year old drew. Especially since no other company is doing the same.

**whiteflags** · 06-22-2016

Originally Posted by Elysia, Locutus of Borg

You realize how much work it is to switch to another OS? Relearn all the things you've learned, find new software, etc, etc? There's a reason I don't want to switch. I'm lazy. I can't bother researching this stuff.

I will agree that you have to be prepared to switch OSes, meaning finding software that runs on the system. As far as learning new things, well, everything Windows taught you - which isn't much - applies in other operating systems too, not just Linux. The one thing that is very different, but only because Windows excluded this from their design for a long time so it is more like a missing feature, is the package manager. Package managers are where you first try to go get binaries. They are a lot like, if not exactly, curated apps you download from trusted servers. But package managers have GUI too.

Then again this particular portion of the quote ...

I'm lazy. I can't bother

what a wall you've put up around yourself.

It really is kind of amazing how you say you want a Windows alternative in one breath, but while exhaling, you say that you can't expend any effort. May as well admit you aren't looking for alternatives.

**Epy** · 06-22-2016

Originally Posted by Elysia

"I'm not going to run apps in virtual machines."

"You realize how much work it is to switch to another OS? Relearn all the things you've learned, find new software, etc, etc? There's a reason I don't want to switch. I'm lazy. I can't bother researching this stuff."

"What else would it be? It translates Windows APIs into Linux APIs because they don't work natively. Sounds like an emulator to me."

1. I know of XP software that requires an XP VM to run properly, so...that's not really a Linux-specific response.

2. This was what caused me to switch back and forth so many times before (being too lazy or too busy to learn things I needed to do that weren't readily realized as easy to do). What's helped this is that I have slowly found new programs to use that are cross-platform to begin with.

3. There's no binary translation or bytecode interpreting etc...it's a compatibility layer, like Cygwin on Windows (except Cygwin is more complete IMO).

**Elysia** · 06-23-2016

Originally Posted by whiteflags

It really is kind of amazing how you say you want a Windows alternative in one breath, but while exhaling, you say that you can't expend any effort. May as well admit you aren't looking for alternatives.

I will admit that. Or I will admit I'm not REALLY looking into alternatives that I just can't switch to with a flick of a switch.

Originally Posted by Epy

1. I know of XP software that requires an XP VM to run properly, so...that's not really a Linux-specific response.

I don't have XP apps that I run in virtual machines, so to me, that would be very Linux-specific. I run all apps natively now, and I don't want to bother with virtual machines.

3. There's no binary translation or bytecode interpreting etc...it's a compatibility layer, like Cygwin on Windows (except Cygwin is more complete IMO).

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system.

Sounds exactly like something Wine does.

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