Thread: Web developing languages

  1. #1
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    Web developing languages

    Have not really started looking at any web developing languages...
    Where is a good place to start?
    Thanks.

  2. #2
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    *exclaims in religious fervour*

    Python!

    Well, err... actually, it would probably be a good idea to read up on the bigger picture of how the Web works and what web development is about, then try your hand at various aspects of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarne Stroustrup (2000-10-14)
    I get maybe two dozen requests for help with some sort of programming or design problem every day. Most have more sense than to send me hundreds of lines of code. If they do, I ask them to find the smallest example that exhibits the problem and send me that. Mostly, they then find the error themselves. "Finding the smallest program that demonstrates the error" is a powerful debugging tool.
    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  3. #3
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    One of the most classic ways of developing for the web is a LAMP or WAMP stack.

    Linux or Windows + Apache + MySQL + PHP

    Apache = http server
    MySQL = database
    PHP = server side scripting

    For client-side, in-browser stuff, there's JavaScript.

    You would also need to learn HTML to actually make a web page.

    Edit : I also think Java is really good for socket-level programming as well. I know C also supports sockets but I've never tried it. Java seems more get-up-and-go though.
    Last edited by MutantJohn; 01-17-2015 at 10:40 AM.

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    First off I want to make it perfectly clear that this might not be 100 % objective (I have worked with all these languages though).

    The 2 most used languages for Webprogramming are still PHP and Javascript. It is my personal belief, from personal experience, that those 2 languages have stunted the growth of more beginners than any other language.

    I'm not against people using PHP and Javascript, but I think anybody that are beginning to learn programming should stay far away from both those languages, because in my opinion it is very easy to pick up bad habits using them.

    The problem is that those 2 are the dominant languages, but if I where to advice, then I would suggest, as Laserlight, to maybe take your first steps with Python or maybe Ruby (Rails).

  5. #5
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    I'm not against people using PHP and Javascript, but I think anybody that are beginning to learn programming should stay far away from both those languages, because in my opinion it is very easy to pick up bad habits using them.
    O_o

    People who learn poor practices with those languages do so because of the poor quality of educational material.

    Good tutorials for both languages teach valuable practices which can be applied successfully to other languages.

    Bad ones... don't mention what `var' does in the Javascript language.

    Soma
    “Salem Was Wrong!” -- Pedant Necromancer
    “Four isn't random!” -- Gibbering Mouther

  6. #6
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Because I really don't know the OP background, I start by suggesting HTML and CSS
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phantomotap View Post
    O_o

    People who learn poor practices with those languages do so because of the poor quality of educational material.

    Good tutorials for both languages teach valuable practices which can be applied successfully to other languages.

    Bad ones... don't mention what `var' does in the Javascript language.

    Soma
    I don't completely agree with you, even though what you say about poor education material being a problem is right. The biggest problem is that people are lazy. You only have to watch most of the submissions to this forum for example. If you correct people when they use undefined behavior or what not you get the answer "It's only a toy program, so I don't care", or something to that effect, most of the time.

    Lazy programmers learn a lot of bad things when learning PHP if they don't have a solid foundation, some even do with a solid foundation.

    But as I said, I don't really have anything against PHP or Javascript (well, maybe I do at that), but I wouldn't recommend them.

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    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Who's the one saying they don't care about undefined behavior? O_o

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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    Who's the one saying they don't care about undefined behavior? O_o
    It feels like it is at least one person per day.

    I have read at least one thread today where somebody stated that "I will continue to use fflush(stdin) because it fits my needs" or something like that. I'm too lazy to get the exact quote and I don't mean to point any fingers either, but my point is that it happens all the time.

    And with a language like PHP a person that likes to write broken code can actually have something up and running on the internet in a week, with security holes and everything.

    And again, I'm not necessarily bashing PHP, more the way people use it. I will not lie though, I don't like PHP, but that is entirely subjective and has nothing to do with the viability of PHP as a language.
    Last edited by Jimmy; 01-17-2015 at 12:00 PM. Reason: and -> a

  10. #10
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    Lazy programmers learn a lot of bad things when learning PHP if they don't have a solid foundation, some even do with a solid foundation.
    O_o

    Good tutorials will, obviously, help a beginner build a solid foundation.

    By the by, I have a lot against the PHP language. I wouldn't recommend learning PHP at all.

    Who's the one saying they don't care about undefined behavior?
    o_O

    Once upon a thread, Elysia offered that he doesn't care about relying on undefined behavior if the code looks better.

    Soma
    “Salem Was Wrong!” -- Pedant Necromancer
    “Four isn't random!” -- Gibbering Mouther

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    Quote Originally Posted by phantomotap View Post
    O_o

    Good tutorials will, obviously, help a beginner build a solid foundation.

    By the by, I have a lot against the PHP language. I wouldn't recommend learning PHP at all.
    I agree. A good tutorial will always be better than a bad one. At least then the programmer cannot blame the language or the material that he learned from if he does something bad, then it is only laziness left... :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by phantomotap View Post
    Once upon a thread, Elysia offered that he doesn't care about relying on undefined behavior if the code looks better.

    Soma
    Personally I don't agree with that sentiment. And I don't mean that directed towards Elysia, I'm not sure if Elysia believes that or ever believed that. Mostly it is because I have had the pleasure, several times, of debugging code that magically broke when compilers where upgraded to newer versions due to reliance on undefined behavior. A few times because we changed compiler as well, that can even break code that is perfectly correct, if you are "unlucky".

  12. #12
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    So wait, what's so bad about PHP? Ignoring the coder being bad, what's wrong the language as a whole?

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    To learn Web programming I have followed the "course" here: Learn Ruby on Rails for Free

    I haven't done it all (yet) but it covers both frontend and backend in a nice way.
    STL Util a small headers-only library with various utility functions. Mainly for fun but feedback is welcome.

  14. #14
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    It feels like it is at least one person per day.
    This is a problem with any language, really. I don't do PHP for a long while. At least 2 years. But I don't seem to recall anything in the language that promotes bad coding practices. Any language I know of suffers from caveats that are addressed in any decent tutorial or book. I don't think PHP programmers are any more prone to bad practices than python, asp.net, or ruby on rails programmers.

    One of the most pernicious security mistakes in web development is to allow eval functions to receive user input through URL formatting. This is for instance (and because we were just now discussing web cameras), the most common mistake in essentially every vendor of IP cameras that contain an internal web server. This facepalm security mistake is common on cgi scripts. And these are usually coded in python, C or Javascript languages. Not in PHP. That's just an example of other languages being badly utilized.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  15. #15
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if Elysia believes that or ever believed that.
    O_o

    I'm too lazy to find the thread I'm referencing so you'll have to do with a brief.

    Elysia posted code using multiple reserved identifiers. (The code specifically used a leading underscore followed by an uppercase letter.) The fact that using reserved identifiers in the scope where the identifier is reserved is undefined behavior was pointed out to Elysia by a couple of people. The response from Elysia was essentially "I don't care. I like the look of the code more than I would by using an allowed identifier.".

    *shrug*

    Doesn't really matter in any event. You complained about a class of programmers. I complained about a class of programmers.

    Soma
    “Salem Was Wrong!” -- Pedant Necromancer
    “Four isn't random!” -- Gibbering Mouther

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