Thread: Global Warming oops itself again

  1. #1
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Global Warming oops itself again

    On what concerns the issue of Global Warming, I count myself among the skeptics. Mostly because of the lack of proper evidence.

    When reading about the latest measurements on the Artic Sea my immediate thought is not "I told you so", because we also lack any proper evidence that Global Warming is a fantasy. Instead, I'm drawn to Ted Scambos comment that we have indeed a whole lot more to learn.

    But to be perfectly honest, I must confess at the same time my distrust of the whole concept of Global Warming. That article couldn't stop me from being reminded of one of my favorite George Carlin moments.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    I've always seen climate change alarmism as nothing more than a way to expand the power of government, and strip people of their freedom unnecessarily. I'm not denying that climate change exists. Of course it exists. The part I'm skeptical about is whether it's caused by humans, and whether it's actually a problem. There just isn't enough evidence over a long enough period of time to make an accurate assessment of the situation. Al Gore claims a half-degree increase, over 100 years. I have a hard time with two aspects of this: The accuracy of that number, and its meaning. First, I am not convinced that it is reliable data. What were people using in the early 20th century to measure temperatures around the world? Mercury thermometers. Are mercury thermometers accurate? Yes, but with low precision. Also, there were parts of the world where we couldn't measure the average temperature a hundred years ago. It was just logistically impossible. The second problem I have with Al Gore's magic number is that the records only go back to 1880, and despite the beginning of record keeping coinciding with the industrial revolution, we have no way to know whether there was already a warming trend, or if the temperature was steady, or if we are simply bouncing back from a couple of hundred years of cooling. I live in western Wisconsin, in the USA, where I can remember 110°F/43°C days in the summer, as a child. We simply don't have days that hot anymore, and in fact, this summer had exactly zero days over 100°F/38°C, where I live. Climate change is real. Whether humans are the cause is the part I doubt. We just don't know enough about the earth, and its very long-term climate, to make realistic predictions of its direction.
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    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Oh Jesus...

    If you don't believe humans can have large impacts on the Earth, go drink the water near a factory's dump drains.

    Humans can have huge impacts and it doesn't surprise me that between all the deforestation and carbon dioxide emission, the Earth is getting hotter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    Oh Jesus...

    If you don't believe humans can have large impacts on the Earth, go drink the water near a factory's dump drains.

    Humans can have huge impacts and it doesn't surprise me that between all the deforestation and carbon dioxide emission, the Earth is getting hotter.
    Did I, at any point in my post, imply that humans can't have an impact on the earth? My point was that there is insufficient data to draw that conclusion about this specific issue.
    What can this strange device be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkvis View Post
    The part I'm skeptical about is whether it's caused by humans, and whether it's actually a problem.
    It is a problem. For us. Maybe not the planet, but for us humans living on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    If you don't believe humans can have large impacts on the Earth, go drink the water near a factory's dump drains.
    No one claimed humans don't have a big impact on nature.

    Humans can have huge impacts and it doesn't surprise me that between all the deforestation and carbon dioxide emission, the Earth is getting hotter.
    There is still no proof that we are the cause of the rising temperature, if the temperature is indeed rising. We don't even know for sure that it's the carbon dioxide that's causing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It is a problem. For us. Maybe not the planet, but for us humans living on it.
    I guess I meant that it's unclear whether climate change will become significant enough to cause actual problems. At this point, it's all theoretical and speculative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkvis View Post
    I guess I meant that it's unclear whether climate change will become significant enough to cause actual problems. At this point, it's all theoretical and speculative.
    Well, I suppose this can be seen as debatable, but... if we can link rising sea levels with the climate change, then the climate change is indeed causing problems already.
    But we don't know if it will become significant enough to cause serious problems of disaster scale, this much is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet: Consensus

    I think it also a very good question, will it be significant?

    I think one thing we could use to troll it would be efficient desalination. We could make unlivable areas livable with the massive influx of water we're receiving.

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    The other main problem I have with the climate change alarmists and their claim of "scientific consensus" is the word "consensus." When something is proven as scientific fact, consensus is irrelevant. The green color of plants is caused by chlorophyll. There is no room for consensus here. It's proven fact, with verifiable proof that can be discovered experimentally, and that can be repeated indefinitely with the same result. There could be a "scientific consensus" that the color is the result of a flying spaghetti monster painting the plants with his green saliva, using his tongue, but that wouldn't make it correct. The "consensus" that people talk about when discussing climate change is more-or-less a belief. Yes, there is some evidence, but there is no incontrovertible proof with repeatable experimental results.
    What can this strange device be?
    When I touch it, it gives forth a sound
    It's got wires that vibrate and give music
    What can this thing be that I found?

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    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    It's just, we don't have time for that so it becomes a matter of faith.

    Is this one instance where people wouldn't rather be safe than sorry?

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    Lurking whiteflags's Avatar
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    I think a lot of the reason why climate change is being studied so seriously is because it happened before, and this time we should try to prepare for the consequences (like, how do we farm food in a more extreme environment) rather than letting people starve until agricultural advances appear. That is if we can do nothing to prevent it, and we may not.

    I worry about disasters like Yellowstone blowing up, too.

    If only the environment came with unit tests...

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    The article linked in the OP basically makes two statements:

    (1) Antarctic ice is increasing; and
    (2) Climate scientists are "baffled" and "puzzled" about this

    Not being an expert on any of this, the first statement seems fair after a bit of quick research, but the second one ... not so much. It doesn't offer any sources of where climate scientists are "baffled" or "puzzled", and so seems to expect we accept this generalize statement as a given.

    Meanwhile, another quick search yields an explanation of this phenomenon that falls well in line with the knowledge of scientists: Why is southern sea ice increasing?

    Not being an expert, and not having a lot of time to review the ideas suggested in that link, I can't vouch for its validity. But at least they offer data and cite sources. This doesn't automatically make the information true (and it's not below disingenuous parties to misrepresent data to support an agenda), but at least it gives clear targets for review.

    A lot more than just a simple claim that scientists are "scratching their heads", as the article does.

    The other main problem I have with the climate change alarmists and their claim of "scientific consensus" is the word "consensus." When something is proven as scientific fact, consensus is irrelevant.
    There are some scientific claims people can objectively test themselves. For instance, curvature of the Earth is easily discernible to anyone who knows what to look for.

    Other scientific claims cannot easily, or even possibly, be tested objectively by individuals. A complex system (such as climate), with both a vast number of factors as well as working over large time-scales, is impossible for the average person to comprehend. Therefore, we are forced to listen to the conclusions of the experts in the field. However, results can vary widely, and for many reasons: improper education/understanding, personal belief, subjective interpretation, being paid off, etc etc.

    So in cases like that, it's perfectly reasonable to accept a consensus. There isn't a single clear, objective metric that can be studied, so we need to find where the "average" of the arguments given by the experts fall.

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    The whole notion that global warming needs to be proven/disproven is irrelevant, IMO. I live in the central valley in CA, which has the worst air in the nation. We get our ........ty air from a variety of different things: agriculture, smog, pollution drifting over from China, forest fires, industrial processes, whatever. You sing a different tune about this kind of thing (unless you're an idiot) when you see yellow freaking air.

    I don't really care about global warming, all I care about is that we can be sure that if we reduce carbon emissions worldwide, we will have cleaner air. That doesn't mean I'm for totally getting rid of fossil fuels, just for extremely clean combustion, and efficient/economical use of fuel.

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    Till the Climate Change (CC) supporters overwhelmingly support the building of more nuclear power plants, I will believe they are idiots or lying on purpose.

    Tim S.
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    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    O_o

    I could not agree more strongly with the sentiment that the cause or even the reality of global warming is irrelevant. I don't care why we chase cleaner air and water. I just want cleaner air and water, and I live in the United States; I can't imagine how foul the air is some places I've seen. That is a situation that needs our attention until a practical solution is implemented.

    As far as it goes though, I used to be on the fence because of some of the issues already referenced. A few weeks back, I watched a relatively new presentation specifically addressing those issues as well as some of the obvious exaggerations presented in contrast to what those scientists have actually presented. As far as I'm concerned now, humans are definitely the cause of the actually rather small surplus warming.

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