Thread: Firefox 5 (Mozilla Release Strategy)

  1. 06-26-2011 #31
    MK27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    You are a typical user creating headaches for developers.
    Oh, a new version (or new feature/software). But I don't see what does it does for me, so I'm just going to skip it.
    I wasn't being that callous. I did have it on. It wasn't until it did the infinite loop ("Firefox has crashed, would you like to report a bug?" Click yes. "Firefox has crashed, would you like to report a bug?" ad infinitum) that I turned it off.

    Maybe the thing will develop in a more user friendly direction. If it does, I'll reconsider. But the way it is now, like I said, it represents everything I don't like -- dumbing the user down, unnecessary and inconvenient blackboxing*, dubious functionality coupled with a lot of noisemaking and who-ha. This is the stuff comedy is made of. But the joke is only funny the first few times...

    I don't feel I owe the developer anything if the developer can't be bothered to consider how I feel about what s/he's done. I do generally appreciate mozilla, but there must be quite a few cooks in that kitchen**, and obviously they aren't all meeting my standards. Boo hoo.

    * blackboxing for convenience is good, but effectively "blackboxing" by default because you are too lazy to expose to the user some degree of functionality is just lazy.

    ** if bug reporting is important to any of the ones who didn't work on "the bug reporter", mebbe one of them can grab a throat and start asking the hard questions, lol.
    Last edited by MK27; 06-26-2011 at 11:12 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge
  2. 06-26-2011 #32
    Elysia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    What the...? But since when I'm obliged to follow every developer whim? I didn't sign an obligation contract with anyone from whom I purchased or adopted software from. I've been using the same Take Command v. 7.01 since 2005. I never upgrade, and never will. It serves my purpose and I don't agree with any of the "new features" introduced in later versions. I never upgraded to AVG 8.0 until I moved to Avast and then Microsoft Security Essentials more than an year later, because they turned a perfectly fine anti-virus into a piece of crap.

    What do I care if that poses problems to software developers? It's up to software developers (a group I belong to) to suck it up and try to do better software instead of forcing their users into this collaboration BS that just wants to turns users into freebie test subjects. The software on my machine... I use it to be productive. Not to cover the arse of some development team that can't be bothered to test before releasing, or some software development model that puts 75% of the testing process on the hands of their users.

    If it works... you'll bet I'll think carefully before upgrading. Sue me.
    How is upgrading when new free versions come out following the developer's every whim? There must always be balance, and I think that such a trivial thing as upgrading every once in a while won't kill you. Obviously, if the software starts to no longer serve your purpose, you simply discard it.
    Once again, the bug reporter is not in the software because they want to turn it into a testing system. It's in there in case something goes wrong. Do you know 100% bug free software? I certainly don't. And when a bug strikes, and it will regardless of how bug free the software is, you can a free bug report to help you track the bug. What is not to like there?

    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I wasn't being that callous. I did have it on. It wasn't until it did the infinite loop ("Firefox has crashed, would you like to report a bug?" Click yes. "Firefox has crashed, would you like to report a bug?" ad infinitum) that I turned it off.

    Maybe the thing will develop in a more user friendly direction. If it does, I'll reconsider. But the way it is now, like I said, it represents everything I don't like -- dumbing the user down, unnecessary and inconvenient blackboxing*, dubious functionality coupled with a lot of noisemaking and who-ha. This is the stuff comedy is made of. But the joke is only funny the first few times...

    I don't feel I owe the developer anything if the developer can't be bothered to consider how I feel about what s/he's done. I do generally appreciate mozilla, but there must be quite a few cooks in that kitchen, and obviously they aren't all meeting my standards. Boo hoo.

    * blackboxing for convenience is good, but effectively "blackboxing" by default because you are too lazy to expose to the user some degree of functionality is just lazy.
    I don't see a problem. Firefox crashed. Usually, I'd expect either to a) restart it manually or b) get a question if I want to restart it. The crash reporting form does just that. And it submits a report to boot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
  3. 06-26-2011 #33
    whiteflags
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    Firefox users do upgrade their software. They do it more than most people, and that will continue. Now what mozilla does, from what I hear, is automatically progress the browser version, and, unless it's a major version release, people don't get a say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    I don't crack open open source software and modify the code, though. This is what plugins and options are for.
    You're like a great number of people including programmers like us, unless someone here is actually developing a Firefox plugin or Firefox itself. (Sorry.) I'm happy you've never run into a wall with your plugins before though. Some things just don't keep pace with Mozilla development. Of course, you can hack the plugin and increase the max version number yourself....

    Not to mention 5 is going to retire other versions; if it were like last time, they would be developing 4 and 5 together for a while. This is what actually mitigated the problem users have of upgrading and losing their features. All plugin platforms have this problem.
  4. 06-26-2011 #34
    Elysia
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    I'm happy you've never run into a wall with your plugins before though. Some things just don't keep pace with Mozilla development. Of course, you can hack the plugin and increase the max version number yourself....
    Oh, but I have.
    That is the single reason I don't jump on the bandwagon as soon as a new version is released.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
  5. 06-26-2011 #35
    MK27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I don't see a problem. Firefox crashed.
    Here's a problem: firefox crashed and what does the bug reporter have to say about it? "Firefox crashed." Awesome.

    There should at least be some button where you can "see details". This is what I meant by contributing to the "our users aren't dumbed down enough yet -- they still read words and are expecting some kind of information, the fools..." syndrome.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge
  6. 06-26-2011 #36
    Elysia
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    I see. Alright, fair enough. You have a point there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
  7. 06-28-2011 #37
    kryptkat
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    elysia i just handed you and others a solution not the best solution but a solution that actually works purrrrmentally resolving the issue in a twenty four karat solid gold kitty food dish in a manner elegant enough to be served in a five michelin star restaurant.

    that was a very interesting read laserlight thank you. it has some very interesting and valid points. noted and taken under advisement. also bookmarked. i read through 24 pages before i realized it was like a giant ball of string of 1100 pages. it is one thing to know you have a beta version to expect bugs vs a release version that is supposed to have said bugs fixed. well most of them. when it talked about testers that said that they only last three to four months and that anyone qualified to be a test does not want to be a tester and that one good tester is twelve times better than the average tester. but it is more than just testing it is design. there is a lot of cpp in the firefox tgz . i did not say to restart from scratch but i did leave that option open. by suggesting it be written in one lang in theory it should be faster and stream lined. by removing the crash reporter that in theory i believe it will also increase speed. there are some serious security concerns with a script like that. like exactly what information or personal information is being sent. ie when you first want to exploit a system what is the first thing you want to know ? what system what os what type of computer mac or pc or other ? known exploits for said system ? just handing them that system info on a silver tray is a serious security concern.

    where exactly does it send the reports ?
    it sends it to id.dmp file to be sent "chrome://global/content/crash-submit-form.xhtml"

    one option that i would add to firefox would be the MDI CHILD window. like opening a browser in a new window but it would be in the MDI client window area. url box and everything. the advantage of this would be side to side comparison of two web pages or more.
  8. 06-28-2011 #38
    DavidP
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    At the current rate they will be at Firefox 23 in a matter of years. I don't like the idea of doing major version bumping at such an increased rate...simply because it seems weird to say "yeah I'm using Firefox 23". Why not use the year like a lot of companies are doing now? Firefox 2011. Firefox 2012. etc
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  9. 06-29-2011 #39
    Elysia
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    Firefox 2011.1, Firefox 2011.2, Firefox 2011.3, Firefox 2011.4 anyone?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
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