Thread: Afehganistan strategy

Originally Posted by bubba

The point is if you keep tabs on the madmen and don't attempt to just appease them or negotiate through failed political policies (as we still attempt to do through the hideous United Nations) and allow them to get away with murder....you won't have to beg for help for 2 years b/c you will be busy kicking his arse all the way back to his own country.

Pity the US did not follow this advice and funded, negotiated and trained people like Sadam and Bin Laden.

The Riegle Report details the WMD the US sent to Sadam in only a few years.
The US took no action when Sadam used US suppiled WMDs on the Kurds in Halabja.
The US has now contaminated large portions of Iraq with the use of DU core ammo.

Originally Posted by abachler

Europe needs to wake up and realize that France is not the bastion of freedom it pretends to be. They actively harbor known terrorists. Unfortunately their position on the security council makes it inconvenient to implement regime change there, yet. Do not let them be the mouthpiece of Europe either officially or de facto, they do not have your best interests in mind.

Neither is the US.

I suggest you look at the graduate list for the "School of the Americas" in Ft Benning, a US govt. funded 'freedom fighter' (terrorist) training center.

I suggest you look at the Riegle Report on 'Gulf War Syndrome', as it details the WMD the US supplied to Sadam.

I suggest you write you senator asking that Orlando Bosche is extradited from Florida to stand trial for his terrorist activities (never happen as he was CIA funded and trained...).

In any case Afghanistan is a global concern and it's no time for Europe to turn to the other side pretending it isn't happening or to let USA deal with it as if it was only their problem. It definitely is not. Apparently Madrid and London wasn't enough. And I do wonder how many Europeans forgot all about it.

It worries me that the issue is not even being discussed in Europe outside the closed offices of ministers of defense. It ashames me profoundly. As much as it angers me.

But on the other hand, I'm doubting Obama abilities as commander-in-chief. His last speech (was it yesterday or the day before?) "I will not send you in harm's way" reveals the antithesis of what a war speech should be. This is the speech of someone who knows the war is lost, who doesn't want the war to proceed, or who simply doesn't have a clue as to what ticks the military into action and wakes up the Eagle inside.

Exactly what is going on in the Pentagon that they can't come up with a sound strategy for Afghanistan, I don't know. What is it that stops the Obama administration from demanding Europe commitment, I don't know either. Maybe it is true. Maybe this country cannot be tamed. The one country that defeated the two superpowers. But one thing I seem to think I know about the military. Obama's speech had them throw up.

Are you talking about the Polish soldiers fighting for/with Germany, or the Polish solders fighting against Germany?

There wasn't a significant number of polish soldiers fighting for the Axis.

They surrendered before the last man fell

Poland fought from the first day of the war to the last day of the war in Europe, they never surrendered, mustered the fourth largest fighting force, sometimes even facing impossible odds, only to be betrayed in the field at the warsaw uprising and again at the table at Yalta. I have the utmost respect for the people who came to a foreign territory to liberate people they had never met before, but my guess is that they would hang their heads in shame if they heard you talking.

If you feel I somehow tried to "dishonor their memory and their sacrifice by somehow claiming Europe could have saved itself", read again my posts. They aren't going anywhere.

And I understand that. And trust me when I say I have the utmost respect for all the men and women involved in the war.

But "all" means all. Not some. Forgetting or pretending to ignore the effort put by the brave soldiers of Soviet Union, Poland, Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece, France, or the Netherlands is as offensive to any European as it is to any American the dismissal of their country importance. To that add the legions of German, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian and Hungary dissidents and the efforts of the occupied countries resistance groups.

No one pales in comparison to no one in a war that was so close to be lost, where everyone lost someone, and which victory was only possible due to the effort of everyone involved. And I too will not sit by letting my continent be trashed around like if nothing of that mattered. USA body count is securely not higher than that of countries like the Soviet Union, Poland, France, Greece where not only more lives were lost but on most cases, the war wiped out 10 to 15% of their population (not 0.5% as was the case with USA).

And once the war was over everyone went back to their business leaving behind a group of eastern allies in the hand of the Soviet Union for decades to come. All dully signed at the conference table in Yalta by their own allies. The body count only grew larger.

Maybe if the WWII is taught in primary and high schools in USA once and for all without all the passion of a country constantly in search for their own heroes at the cost of the sacrifice of others, maybe you Americans will learn a little bit more instead of revealing a revolting ignorance and despise for anything great that is not your own doing.

Lower that cocky chin because it has always, and always will, only serve your own domestic agenda. It has no value whatsoever in the rest of the world where history is not told in the first person. (pales in comparison my ass!)

EDIT: Want to really learn about WWII? Get yourselves the full collection of World At War and also the 6 Volume The Second World War. Bet no one told you in school Winston Churchill was not only also an historian but also a Nobel Prize of Literature. And there you will see how much Europe respects and understands the decisive moment in history that was the American declaration of War on Japan. And how much we respect and honor your participation. That is what is being taught at our schools every single day. What about you?

Maybe if the WWII is taught in primary and high schools in USA once and for all without all the passion of a country constantly in search for their own heroes at the cost of the sacrifice of others, maybe you Americans will learn a little bit more instead of revealing a revolting ignorance and despise for anything great that is not your own doing.

I have no control over what is taught and nor do you and yet you assume you know what is taught over here. What they are teaching now is a watered down censored version that is probably no more close to historical than the accounts in your post. Don't assume that all of us here are historically ignorant or only believe what is spoon fed to us. My core study area in my first college was history. I did not do it on purpose but it so happens I took so many history courses I ended up with a history as a core area of study.

EDIT: Want to really learn about WWII? Get yourselves the full collection of World At War and also the 6 Volume The Second World War. Bet no one told you in school Winston Churchill was not only also an historian but also a Nobel Prize of Literature. And there you will see how much Europe respects and understands the decisive moment in history that was the American declaration of War on Japan. And how much we respect and honor your participation. That is what is being taught at our schools every single day. What about you?

I have most if not all of what you are talking about as well as several books related to subs, air war, and key battles in the Pacific. I'm not as well versed on the European side of the WW2 since the Pacific is what interested me most. You act as if you have a monopoly on WW2 information. I really don't understand the point here or what we are arguing. Are we arguing that your WW2 collection is greater than mine or is this some other type of contest?
You act as if I haven't read that information or that it will somehow shock me and I'll magically see your point.

But since this post is not a contest to see who's WW2 knowledge or collection is better I say we get back to the idea of Afghanistan. If your country wants to help, then help, because even if you do, or don't, we are still going to go over there and do what needs to be done - with or without you. We always do, always have, and always will. Personally I don't care if you like that fact or agree with it or like or dislike my attitude. Bantering over this doesn't change what is really happening and what countries are or are not going to help us. Thinking about helping or wishing you could help doesn't mean squat in my book. I guess it comes down to putting your money, or your life, where your big mouth is. So put up or shut up as my family would say. My approach is probably not the most diplomatic but then again since I've been around and involved with the military I doubt that is what I've been taught. Diplomacy is for the morons on the Hill. They start the war with their mouths and the men end it with their lives.

What they are teaching now is a watered down censored version that is probably no more close to historical than the accounts in your post.

Sheesh. Really, whatever...

But since this post is not a contest to see who's WW2 knowledge or collection is better I say we get back to the idea of Afghanistan.

You bet.

If your country wants to help, then help, because even if you do, or don't, we are still going to go over there and do what needs to be done - with or without you. We always do, always have, and always will. Personally I don't care if you like that fact or agree with it or like or dislike my attitude. Bantering over this doesn't change what is really happening and what countries are or are not going to help us. Thinking about helping or wishing you could help doesn't mean squat in my book. I guess it comes down to putting your money, or your life, where your big mouth is. So put up or shut up as my family would say.

Your idea that what I say or do will change my country stance in the Afghan war honors me. But it is also nothing but a joke.

I revealed my feelings about mine and other European countries. And these I do also to those around me who care to listen. And I also place my vote when the time comes. If there is one thing democracy taught me is that I don't have to shut up, and my family told me is to NEVER shut up. Since I know we most probably had a similar upbringing on matters of Freedom, I suggest your rethink.

I was also mostly curious as to how Americans in general saw our meager involvement on this war. If my criticism of my own continent and of your president somehow displeases you, know it was noted.

If there is one thing democracy taught me is that I don't have to shut up, and my family told me is to NEVER shut up.

We are talking about military matters here. First thing they teach you in the military is we DEFEND a democracy but the military is not a democracy. I was not telling you to shut up in reference to your opinions but I was stating that some of what you are saying in relation to WW2 are big words for a man who was never there. So put up or shut up means before you begin to criticize another's actions in wars you never fought in put your own arse on the line and then you might have the right to criticize.

I was always taught to respect and honor those in the military. Part of that respect and honor is not offering my opinion b/c I wasn't there, I didn't see my buddies guts get blown to smithereens, I have never been in a situation where people were trying to kill me at every turn, I have never done any of that. Now can I question the policies behind all of the reason for the war? I sure can and I do many times. But the line stops at the men. You never ever claim this or that about the men involved b/c even though you have the democratic right to say whatever you want....you don't out of pure respect. I can't explain it any better than that. Abachler seems to be of the same mindset (which scares me that we actually agree in this post) probably b/c he understands the military culture as well. It's hard to explain if you haven't been around it. But the basics are don't criticize the actions of men who put their lives on the line if you yourself have never done the same.

We can banter about the policies of WW2 b/c I could care less about politicians who never fired one round in the war or any other conflict. But let's keep it on the Hill and leave the actions of the men out of it. They were only doing what they were ordered to do so don't tell me what my grandfather or his friends or any other person involved were thinking or doing or why they were doing it b/c you simply do not know.

And for an extremely well educated person you are making some grandiose generalizations about Americans. From your posts you appear to think we are all spoon fed morons who believe everything we are told about this or that. Truth is most of us here despise the media, despise the modern historical books (since they are pure BS now), despise the government in one form or another, and in general are all working day to day to make ends meet and get to the weekend to spend time with our families and friends. You make us sound like woefully ignorant pompous bastards that go around trying to bully everyone else. Sorry, my friend but that is not true. What you see of America is what CNN, FOX, Hollywood and the other idiots bring to your door. The true America is much different than all that. So before you start measuring all of us by the same ruler you might want to consider actually listening a bit.

And now I'm done b/c Abachler and I are actually agreeing in a post which is scary. That in itself is enough to make me want to run away from this thread with my hands up screaming all the way.

Ok. I now understand where you are coming from. I will have to agree with everything you say in this post.

In any case, I will protest my innocence as I never judged those involved in the war with the exception of anyone in a position to make decisions. With that, it is true I'm a bit bitter about USA non-involvement policy until 1941. But make no mistake I know there was an historical context to that and the policy wasn't shared by many of the Americans, including the President of the time. As much as, it needs to be said too, Yalta didn't give the western allies many options other than to accept Soviet demands. It's not that the western allies betrayed their eastern friends.

As for Teaching... ok. I went on a tangent there. From the start of the WWII debate, I was put in a defensive position by abachler's preposterous claims. In an attempt to make my point across I ended up generalizing too much. No, I don't believe every American is a mindless idiot incapable of filtering what they are taught at school or told on the media. Quite on the contrary. And I apologize for that.