Objective C section on the forums

[Prelude]

>Because you're mocking an idea without understanding.
I don't think your idea is especially difficult to understand. In fact, suggesting that it's being rejected without understanding is rather arrogant, because you imply that we're unable to understand something simple.

>If you declined an idea in a meeting without any prior knowledge or understanding, and
>because you generally don't like the idea for no particular reason, you'd look a little silly.
And if you assume that your idea is being declined due to lack of prior knowledge or understanding without any proof, you'll look a very silly when proven wrong. Speaking of which, we've been through this before. The C# forum exists because somebody suggested it on a whim and managed to convince enough powerful people that it was a good idea. Now we have a C# forum that's inactive, pathetic, and essentially worthless compared to other C# forums on the web. After a few years it's still like this, so keep in mind that we're already biased against frivolous forums.

So yes, we understand in full what your idea entails, probably better than you do because your idea is neither new nor unique, and most of us have been around long enough to see the idea get thrown around several times and get attempted at least once. We have both prior knowledge and understanding born of experience.

[idelovski]

I can only support the Objective C forum. Every now and then idea about a Mac forum emerges here, but nothing happens.

Objective C is C plus few extensions. Every C program compiles without any modifications as Objective C and most of the stuff people use on unix/linux (except gui implementations) exist on Mac/iPhone.

Most forums dedicated to iPhone development have a front page less than 24 hours old. Objective C jumped on tiobe into Top 20. On Stack Overflow, iPhone is in the first row of the hottest tags. On Amazon, Objective C book is top seller in the C section and iPhone books are bestsellers in most other computing categories.

C Board would probably grow as a whole if it starts Mac/iPhone development forum. Just try it and see what happens.

[sean]

Regardless of how popular Macs/Obj-C are, this forum doesn't have a good community of people who are familiar with that platform. The C and C++ forums flourish because we have enough professionals in that field that 3 or 4 of them are online at any on time - thus the questions get answered within minutes at any time of day. The reason the C# board is lacking is because we simply didn't have a critical mass of people familiar with that, and so it takes forever for a question to be answered. So, we might as well have no C# forum, and we don't get a lot of return visits - people realize there's more mature communities. Now - I hardly hear any talk about iPhones on this board - probably because most of the more senior members I'm familiar with don't have anything to do with them. So if we started an Obj-C board, who would make it more of a success than the C# board? I hear less about Obj-C on here than I did about C# when it started.

[Elysia]

I'm inclined to agree with sean.
If someone suddenly convinces lots of Mac or Obj-C experts to come here and be active about it, then there would be a need for separate forums, perhaps. But as it stands now - not enough discussion! It would be wasted space, simply put. And lots of forums cannot always be considered a good thing. Ever looked at MSDN's forums? It's overcrowded with sections.

[MK27]

Just because not many Mac developers don't talk on here, does not mean they are a minority.

I hope not. You know how we treat minorities around here...

C Board would probably grow as a whole if it starts Mac/iPhone development forum. Just try it and see what happens.

By this line of reasoning, we should have a Miley Cyrus discussion forum as well to assist us in our quest to become the biggest web forum board in the history of the universe.

Unless that means enough extra ad money to put me on the payroll , I don't necessarily see a big advantage to growth for it's own sake at this point. AFAICT, 95% of the questions asked in the cbaord forums I pay attention to get solved, and most of them in only a few hours.

I have seen some programming forums that are busier than cboard but I'm not sure that necessarily makes them better.

Ever looked at MSDN's forums? It's overcrowded with sections.

No, but there are plenty I have seen that try to have a forum for everything, and half of them get 2 posts a month. That's what happens if you water something down enough. I much prefer a specialized board dedicated to a few things rather than one that tries to be all things to all people. Sorry.

ps. why do the Mac programmer's concerned want another forum? Is there a problem at the ones that already exist?

[VirtualAce]

There once was a board that tried to have a forum for everything. It started out very good and then became watered down to the point that it was no longer about programming.

It did have a very nice assembly board and some very good members but it degraded into a disaster b/c there were too many forums.

Mac devs are definitely fewer in number than x86 devs and this is evidenced by simple economics: market share.

[idelovski]

By this line of reasoning, we should have a Miley Cyrus discussion forum ...

The forum's growth wasn't my major point.

Objective C is a superset of straight C. To learn Objective C you need to learn C first. For someone interested in Mac/iPhone development it would be a natural progression to come here, spend a few months in the C forum and then expand to Objective C forum.

But, maybe we should just wait another year or two for the critical mass,... or maybe someone should start a poll: Do you want Obj-C forum on C Board? Yes/No/Cancel?

[Elysia]

How long has the iPhone been out now? I doubt there will be any "critical mass."
I wonder if there's a way to hide forums, but still make them searchable?
Then those "failed" forums could simply be hidden, if they are ever created.

[robwhit]

if they were hidden, people wouldn't know to search on them.

[Thantos]

Hidden boards will show up in search results if searching the entire forum.

[MK27]

... or maybe someone should start a poll: Do you want Obj-C forum on C Board? Yes/No/Cancel?

That's a great idea. I have nothing against it, so I would not vote against it (but I would not vote for it, either). I still don't think it is actually in anyone's interest, because there are already successful iphone and obj-C forums elsewhere. I don't program exclusively in C and so I use other boards; I don't have a problem doing that; I wouldn't ask them to start a C forum just cause I like it.

One reason that might almost make me vote against it, and this I admit is perhaps a bit wacky: C/C++ is a "hard core" programming realm from which many other "realms" (eg obj-C) may be derived. That may be why the cboard is such a high quality place, so I can understand why you might want your forum here and not somewhere else. But it could be that by including all these potential derivative realms, you weaken the brilliance of the fundamental edifice. Does that make sense?

I wonder if there's a way to hide forums, but still make them searchable?

There's a way to do everything, you know that. Just most people don't actually want to do everything.

[idelovski]

But it could be that by including all these potential derivative realms, you weaken the brilliance of the fundamental edifice. Does that make sense?

Sure, yes!

We're all developers here. Each time someone asks for a feature in my software my initial response is NO! I must keep simplicity of my application and maintainability of my code above anything else. Then if I receive the same request for the millionth time NO turns into MAYBE and eventually it becomes YES.

[Thantos]

Sure, yes!

We're all developers here. Each time someone asks for a feature in my software my initial response is NO! I must keep simplicity of my application and maintainability of my code above anything else. Then if I receive the same request for the millionth time NO turns into MAYBE and eventually it becomes YES.

You aren't very successful then are ya? When I get feature requests from my users the first response I give is a "Why? What goal are you trying to achieve?" Then it becomes a matter of figuring out what features they need and implementing them. A lot of time what they want is already in the system and they just don't know it (training) or the information is presented in a way that isn't effective. I tend to work on projects that are basically living, breathing entities where development is always going on. Just saying no just isn't acceptable (within some measure of reason, I'll say no if they ask for me to put in a security hole).

[VirtualAce]

Just saying no just isn't acceptable

Ditto that. Not like I'm important enough to actually have a say what features are put in and what ones are not. Way above my cube. Features are decided on by management and implemented by devs. There really isn't much choice in the matter if the management really wants it put in. We just figure out how to do it and make it work.

[idelovski]

Just saying no just isn't acceptable.

Does that mean we can have Objective C forum?

PS. Requests by clients are important, of course. It depends on type of the project how you handle those wishes. If you have one project per client, then you just do what they say. If you have one project (or just a few) for all of your customers, then you must filter their wishes very carefully. I am sure you have heard expressions like 'featuritis', 'feature creep' or 'bloatware'.