Thread: Which language?

Originally Posted by jeffcobb

So no, there is no team jersey here mate; just the knowledge that I use (for my needs) the right tool for the right job. Again, on the PC it may not matter much but there is a whole other world out there. In the apps you work on time must not count; in mine (most of the ones I do/did for work) it does, even those NEGLIGIBLE amounts you scoff at.

This reminds me of a Bush Jr. parody I heard recently where he goes, "I'm a Texas Tiger and you're a liberal wiener!"

Just kidding. You are correct of course Jeff, but still simplifying I think and it juxtaposes with that earlier crack about "Just have a Coke and smile" in an interesting way. Maybe you need those wacko grad students on your team

My purpose vis, asserting the value and potential of interpreted languages (which once you know them speaks for itself) is the same as it was in responding to Elysia's assertion that "No one smart uses C for big modern applications", which is false, but there is a grain of truth in it. That grain of truth, tho, will be obvious and apparent to anyone at a point where they are involved in such a project: it does not bare stating, much less repeating. Ie, what are you trying to prove, to whom, and why?

The real effect/intent seem to me to be to disseminate some misleading propaganda to new programmers: I can imagine a C++ monastery-castle on a hill someplace, where programmer-newbies are kidnapped from their families and brought to be told all kinds of ridiculous stories about the Devil, C, perl, and anything else that isn't C++. Then they are told to defend the chalice...laying down their lives, if need be.

Originally Posted by MK27

Googling for this is tricky, since "perl compilers" won't fly, but I did try ("compilers written in perl"), since AFAICT the perl community will do anything and everything just to prove a point

Dunno about your web search skills, but when I tried searching for information on this after your post #80, I came across a mailing list archive where the thread starter proposed that Perl 6 be implemented in Perl 6 so that Perl programmers could improve on the interpreter.

Originally Posted by laserlight

Dunno about your web search skills, but when I tried searching for information on this after your post #80, I came across a mailing list archive where the thread starter proposed that Perl 6 be implemented in Perl 6 so that Perl programmers could improve on the interpreter.

that's why I see Satan in that weirdo butterfly symbol they are using.

Just another example of this "one language for all" fixation I guess. Larry Wall might be the James Cameron of the interpreted scripting language world...ten years in the making...

Again, the best of the moderator tools is the split thread tool. Do not hinder discussion: encourage it. That's what boards are for, no? Split the thread, and no foul done, so to speak. Many do not realize this, but I see it as a good advice.
Just saying...

Originally Posted by Elysia

Again, the best of the moderator tools is the split thread tool. Do not hinder discussion: encourage it. That's what boards are for, no? Split the thread, and no foul done, so to speak. Many do not realize this, but I see it as a good advice.
Just saying...

Agreed. I think everyone with more than five posts in this thread should now get their own thread, and post there.

Discussions drift, always have and always will. Have since the days of the first BBS and nothing nature or man can do to stop it...you can fight it will all of your technical might but you won't win. No one ever has...

Then I would suggest that you make a couple of "maint. free" threads say in the general area where long-running and often meandering discussions can take place without fear of reprisal. Drifting is the *nature* of discussion and as a discussion forum this is going to happen, sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. Just a suggestion and will probably keep your blood pressure down too

Originally Posted by Bubba

Many also do not realize there is something to be said for not constantly derailing discussions so much that they all end up being different variations of all your own personal hangups.

Which is why when you all calm down and come to your senses (the realm of your natural curiosity and intelligence) you'll be thrilled to learn there are still some used copies available cheap:

Amazon.com: Perl for C Programmers (Learn) (9780735712287): Steve Oualline: Books

Haven't read this myself, just noticed it on the shell at the library today and attracted some attention for spitting out the water I was not supposed to be drinking during a laughing fit. Looks like it failed to make a 2nd edition -- even thought the Great Pyramids are on the cover. Act fast before it's too late.

Originally Posted by woody_294

I want to get into serious programming for games, not making my own little games type of thing, properly doing it, and I don't mind having to spend a lot of time doing other things before I make something that actually looks like a game.

I've bolded the relevant bits.

Your attitude already earned my respect. It is indeed wise (and any newbie programmer with a forehead should realize this without being told) that in order to get into game programming, or any other type of programming for that matter, they first need to learn how to program. The fact you realize this a priori without anyone telling you so, is convincing enough your question is just not another "I want to make gamez, LOL!". So no, this is not the hundreth question of this type. In fact it's the first in many years I personally seen on these boards. And Bubba is correct. You deserve a better answer than another programming language slugfest.

I probably will make some small stuff for fun

Sure! As long as you realize always that you will be under a apprenticeship process. And just like any other similar situation, you should not lose focus of what are your priorities. And right now they aren't programming games. Right now it's learning ho to program, period.

I've been looking around and getting slightly more confused as I go on. I don' know what to learn, I hear the big guns are using C/C++ (reason why I'm here) but I imagine doing stuff in things like XNA would be a lot easier. What about Java?

Ok. So... what language? The answer is not easy. Or better, there is no definite answer. But... there are possible answers.

C++ is the usual choice for serious game programming because it's currently the language that better suits anyone who wishes to produce games on par with the industry standards. There's also a huge programmers base, an immense accumulated know-how and a vast amount of libraries to choose from when the time comes. It also currently offers you the best opportunities for a professional career in the area of game programming.

But C# and XNA are not a bad choice either. You will not be producing top games with it because of the performance limitations of this choice. Eventually things will get better. But hardly they will ever be on par with C++ performance. In any case you will be able to produce all manner of games. Just not games that demand too much from the hardware like what you'd expect from the current top 3D titles. But games like Torchlight are perfectly doable in XNA, as are many types of strategy games for instance.

Java? Yes of course! There's a whole market for java games in the cellphone thing, for instance. Personally I have trouble here because I do dislike the programming language, but with even more limitations than XNA, java has been producing all manner of games since the day it was released.

Other languages are also an option. You can indeed make a game from about any programming language that allows for user input and has some manner of output. It's no accident that game programming is as old as computers are. Just think that the first NIMROD computer, when presented on a fair in 1950, was made to play the game of NIM. Of course, you will have to adapt your game requirements to the programming language you are using. So a game written in Visual Basic better not try to be a 3D space shooter.

Personally I think that today the two best options for game programming are C++ and XNA. C++ because it doesn't have anything else to prove (all major titles are made in this programming language and its power is still far from being tapped). XNA because it's the only other option that is not C++ that has something significant to offer in the area of game programming with 3D. If you don't need/want 3D programming, then go nuts.

Shoudl I just go ahead and start learning C++ straight off the bat?

Yup. The language is actually fairly easy to learn. You can gain the basic concepts in 2 or 3 months of hard study, provided you get the right material (that's another thread). The rest of your life will be spent perfecting your knowledge, deepening it with more advanced concepts, learning/studying all manner of programming tricks and compiler gimmicks.

Originally Posted by MK27

Which is why when you all calm down and come to your senses (the realm of your natural curiosity and intelligence) you'll be thrilled to learn there are still some used copies available cheap:

Amazon.com: Perl for C Programmers (Learn) (9780735712287): Steve Oualline: Books

Haven't read this myself, just noticed it on the shell at the library today and attracted some attention for spitting out the water I was not supposed to be drinking during a laughing fit. Looks like it failed to make a 2nd edition -- even thought the Great Pyramids are on the cover. Act fast before it's too late.

Now now MK, no teasing the kids....

Originally Posted by Mario F.

You deserve a better answer than another programming language slugfest.

Here I am labouring under the impression you had invented the whole concept.

Originally Posted by the OP

I hear the big guns are using C/C++

Yes, "feet shooting" and "blowing limbs off" are also a historical mixed metaphor closely linked to the activity of the big guns. Like Mario F. says, you are a smart enthusiastic person have fun and please don't start with XNA that is sure to shackle your mind.