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Mario F.
02-09-2008, 01:29 PM
Anyone else experiencing constant timeouts or blank pages when trying to access or edit at http://cpwiki.sourceforge.net/ ?

robwhit
02-09-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm getting slow access (ok) and connection resets.

Mario F.
02-09-2008, 02:00 PM
Thanks rob. It's been like that for me for a few days already. Just needed some confirmation.

dwks
02-09-2008, 03:11 PM
It's been happening to me, too. I have to load every page twice -- for some reason, it always seems to work the second time around. I just thought it was my connection as usual, though.

Elysia
02-09-2008, 03:20 PM
Yep, definitely a problem with the site. I'm experiencing it too.

zacs7
02-09-2008, 05:17 PM
http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2352&group_id=1

However, It seems the project webservers are either 1. Slow or 2. Under extreme load. If anyone has hosting, perhaps they could host the wiki? Or we try and stick it out on sf.net?

dwks
02-12-2008, 07:08 PM
I have some hosting at theprogrammingsite.com. There's lots of space, over 4.5GB left I think, and tons of bandwidth (can't remember the exact numbers). The only thing is that board.theprogrammingsite.com, a message board, gets so much spam that I'm afraid some of it might carry over to the wiki. Believe me, we don't want that kind of spamming. We could try to keep the wiki and that board separate, but I think it would still happen. That's why I didn't mention my hosting at the beginning.

But with the wiki being so slow, perhaps we should give it a try.

Does anyone else have some free hosting space? I seem to remember jverkoey having a website where several CBoard users host sites . . . perhaps it could work?

On the other hand, maybe we should just give sf a try for a while longer. Maybe it's a temporary problem -- it didn't do this at the begginning.

Mario F.
02-12-2008, 07:42 PM
I'm wanting to believe this is a temporary problem. I don't conceive sf as being constantly plagued by slowdowns. But they may be limiting traffic according to hits and we got the rotten end of the deal. You tried talking with them?

It does annoy me some. But to be honest I did get used to it :) (btw, it was excellent yesterday. Not today anymore and I gave up on publishing boost.any for now)

As for your site... dunno. If you don't announce it in any way on your forums... what kind of spam? Publicity and stuff or people actually trying to degrade your efforts?

zacs7
02-13-2008, 12:17 AM
It's not network lag, it's server load lag -- specifically on the sf.net MySQL server.

I'd say moving it to your site would be best, mainly due to the security issues, limitations and timeouts on sf.net. However, what sort of spam do you mean? 'Noobs'? Or robots?

If it's either, restrict the wiki so no-one can create accounts (the sysop has to do it for them).

laserlight
02-13-2008, 03:27 AM
If dwks' hosting does not work out I could lend a hand with my VPS.

dwks
02-13-2008, 12:20 PM
It's porn, and drugs advertisments, and other really not very nice stuff. It's posted by humans, not "robots", who register even if you throw up roadblocks like entering an . . . alphanumeric sequence. I can't remember the exact name.


If it's either, restrict the wiki so no-one can create accounts (the sysop has to do it for them).
That seems unnecessarily restrictive to me . . . I think it would just be best if someone else could host it. I mean, we could try it and see what happens. And not linking to the wiki from the board would be a good idea, but probably not enforceable.

How is theprogrammingsite? Speed -- the theprogrammingsite.com server is very fast as far as I can tell. I can upload a few megabytes (xuni) in twenty seconds, if I have a fast connection this end. Reliability -- even though they guaranteed 99.95% uptime or some such, it has gone down occasionally in the past. No more than CBoard, though, which as I'm sure everyone knows goes down every once in a while too.

Oh, and the name fits too. :D Though it's pretty long -- cpwiki.theprogrammingsite.com/Void_main . . . .

Mario F.
02-13-2008, 02:05 PM
It's porn, and drugs advertisments

Oh. Well then, I think we should move the wiki to your domain. :cool:

dwks
02-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Ah well, I'll make you a moderator of board.theprogrammingsite.com and see how long you last, deleting posts every hour or whatever. :)

Mario F.
02-13-2008, 04:07 PM
That bad, uh? I haven't been there to for a long time. But sure can lend an hand on that, if you need one. Just don't mind if I don't do anything else. I'm not suited for moderator stuff. I lose my temper easily and like to keep it that way :)

dwks
02-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Nah, it's okay -- thanks for the offer though. I just mentioned it as a reason not to host the wiki there.

zacs7
02-14-2008, 05:12 AM
Well I'd say if it's going to be moved, better sooner than later.

Seriously, if you knew some of the 'work arounds' I had to do to get it working on sf.net -- I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be happy. On that subject, is anyone keeping backups? (If not, log-on to phpmyadmin and dump the SQL database, or tell me to do so). I'd say move it, because some of the security issues are pretty critical.

Btw,


Need to press space (or backspace) several times to add (or remove) enough indentation
Not possible to travel between indentation levels easily
Not possible to add or remove indentation from several lines at once

You can tell Elysia has been bagging spaces... The truth is most editors can treat spaces as tabs -- making none of these true.

Elysia
02-14-2008, 07:22 AM
Btw,

You can tell Elysia has been bagging spaces... The truth is most editors can treat spaces as tabs -- making none of these true.

Note 1) You are free to do minor edits if you think it is in appropriate or can be done better.
Note 2) Note the note that all these disadvantages can be removed with proper editor support.
And note 3) I don't use spaces, so I don't fully know about them.

Mario F.
02-14-2008, 07:47 AM
The information is though still incorrect, Elysia. We really need a closure on this issue. It's just an indentation article.

In fact, I'm even perplexed at the need to detail the pros and cons between spaces and tabs. These are so hazy, so dependent on taste and so minor issues, that whatever the opinion is (for or against) anything that is said about it is bound to be wrong.

In the name of clarity and objectivity, it should be removed from the article.

whiteflags
02-14-2008, 09:10 AM
It would be the last bit of anything that I left in which Elysia had actually written into the main article, so expect a bit of a battle. I do however think that it is a fair summary of the discussion we had on the topic, which remains cited. Perhaps it would be clearer if that were specifically stated? Because I don't know whether people should take that discussion at face value and draw their own conclusions, or what.

Additionally, I would point out that the article states consideration for the medium has to be considered (such as a browser), so I don't think we can totally afford to neatly ignore the issue with a simple statement. If the pros and cons are really not a fair evaluation than that is a significant flaw with the whole article indeed.

Elysia
02-14-2008, 09:57 AM
The information is though still incorrect, Elysia. We really need a closure on this issue. It's just an indentation article.
Incorrect how?


In fact, I'm even perplexed at the need to detail the pros and cons between spaces and tabs. These are so hazy, so dependent on taste and so minor issues, that whatever the opinion is (for or against) anything that is said about it is bound to be wrong.

In the name of clarity and objectivity, it should be removed from the article.

It should absolutely not. I will never tell anyone to use spaces for indentation as much as you are unlikely to tell anyone to use tabs. As we know, there are programmers on both sides, so saying go with one is not an option.
And short of saying, "use tabs," which is exactly what the article shouldn't (now that would be biased!), the read must make a decision for him/herself, which means listing pros and cons.

Mario F.
02-14-2008, 11:13 AM
Incorrect how?

Incorrect in the sense it fails to acknowledge that those pros and cons are irrelevant considering most IDEs these days create/delete/navigate through spaces created with the tab key as if they were tabs. But I'll get into a little more detail:

>> Need to press space (or backspace) several times to add (or remove) enough indentation
>> Not possible to travel between indentation levels easily
>> Not possible to add or remove indentation from several lines at once

This is not true anymore for a large spectrum of IDEs/Editors. Be they GUI or textual. The information could thus be considered incorrect due to being old. More it is also incorrect due to the fact it generalizes the exception. If anything it should start with "On a few remaining editors, "

Furthermore, the 2nd and 3rd are a consequence of the first. It reiterates what you wrote on the first one and adds nothing. It seems the text is fishing for reasons.

The whole thing could simply be written as something like this:

On a few remaining editors the tab key cannot create space-character indentation. On these editors, it is probably not advised the use of indentation based on space characters. On any other editors where the user has an option to choose whether the tab key creates space characters or tab characters, one should use what they feel most comfortable with.


It should absolutely not. I will never tell anyone to use spaces for indentation as much as you are unlikely to tell anyone to use tabs.

Wrong. That is exactly where we differ. You are fundamentalist, whereas I don't care. I would tell them to use what they like most. It's just indentation. What do I care what they use as long as they follow the canonical rule, Choose one, be consistent.

I told you before, and I will tell you again. It's just bloody indentation. Who cares? You want it to stay like that? Fine. Whatever. It doesn't stop me to say I find that information wrong, irrelevant and introducing too much detail into a theme that deserves little.

Mario F.
02-14-2008, 11:20 AM
If the pros and cons are really not a fair evaluation than that is a significant flaw with the whole article indeed.

It is my view, yes. However, quiet frankly it doesn't offend me if it stays. Just stating my opinion since the article smells when you get to that part. It is clear to the reader who has already a background on Editors of any kind (programming or not) that the person who wrote that doesn't really know what they are saying.

I suggested a change on my previous post (in italics). I think it's a more appropriate manner of addressing the issue - if it really needs to be addressed, because as I said before I think it shouldn't even be addressed. It is so prone to judgment due to its intrinsic nature of being left mostly to the taste and acquired habits, that whatever is said about it in the form of pros and cons is bound to be wrong to some.

Elysia
02-14-2008, 11:33 AM
Incorrect in the sense it fails to acknowledge that those pros and cons are irrelevant considering most IDEs these days create/delete/navigate through spaces created with the tab key as if they were tabs. But I'll get into a little more detail:

>> Need to press space (or backspace) several times to add (or remove) enough indentation
>> Not possible to travel between indentation levels easily
>> Not possible to add or remove indentation from several lines at once

This is not true anymore for a large spectrum of IDEs/Editors. Be they GUI or textual. The information could thus be considered incorrect due to being old. More it is also incorrect due to the fact it generalizes the exception. If anything it should start with "On a few remaining editors, "

Furthermore, the 2nd and 3rd are a consequence of the first. It reiterates what you wrote on the first one and adds nothing. It seems the text is fishing for reasons.

The whole thing could simply be written as something like this:

On a few remaining editors the tab key cannot create space-character indentation. On these editors, it is probably not advised the use of indentation based on space characters. On any other editors where the user has an option to choose whether the tab key creates space characters or tab characters, one should use what they feel most comfortable with.
I don't much about GUI support, but if it's true, it just blurs the lines between them yet more, which can make people even more confused on what to use.


Wrong. That is exactly where we differ. You are fundamentalist, whereas I don't care. I would tell them to use what they like most. It's just indentation. What do I care what they use as long as they follow the canonical rule, Choose one, be consistent.
Then if you omit the pros/cons, what do you propose people choose? Without some guided support, I don't know if they can all choose a style. That is why there is a pros/cons section because many will say "use tabs" and many will say "use spaces." Confusion!


I told you before, and I will tell you again. It's just bloody indentation. Who cares? You want it to stay like that? Fine. Whatever. It doesn't stop me to say I find that information wrong, irrelevant and introducing too much detail into a theme that deserves little.
Indentation is very important. And I can't stress enough how poor people seem to indent and how much pain it is to read such code. I think it is your kind of attitude that has made it into what it is: hey, it's indentation, who cares? It's more important to make our code work, but screw anyone but myself who tries to read it!

Mario F.
02-14-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't much about GUI support, but if it's true, it just blurs the lines between them yet more, which can make people even more confused on what to use.


Then if you omit the pros/cons, what do you propose people choose? Without some guided support, I don't know if they can all choose a style. That is why there is a pros/cons section because many will say "use tabs" and many will say "use spaces." Confusion!

You must be joking. You think people are so stupid they need to be tutored into choosing spaces or tabs!?

Confusion!? What are you talking about? Get your act together. You didn't need to be tutored into choosing one or another. I didn't. That guy over there didn't too. And that girl on the other side didn't either. No one doesn't. They choose naturally.


I think it is your kind of attitude that has made it into what it is: hey, it's indentation, who cares? It's more important to make our code work, but screw anyone but myself who tries to read it!

Yes. Well, what can I say. I'm that way.

laserlight
02-14-2008, 11:40 AM
Indentation is very important. And I can't stress enough how poor people seem to indent and how much pain it is to read such code. I think it is your kind of attitude that has made it into what it is: hey, it's indentation, who cares? It's more important to make our code work, but screw anyone but myself who tries to read it!
Mario F.'s point is: Choose one, be consistent., not that indentation does not matter at all.

I agree with the evaluation that we may not actually need a comparison. Ultimately, we just need to compare well indented code with poorly indented code, point out the benefits of the former, the horror of the latter, and then suggest choosing either all spaces or all tabs and being consistent with that choice.

zacs7
02-14-2008, 03:33 PM
I didn't mean to start an argument, I was only bringing it up...

> You must be joking. You think people are so stupid they need to be tutored into choosing spaces or tabs!?
It's true a few people come onto this forum with code that has both spaces and tabs (possibly due to they copied it from somewhere), eg:



#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
int a = 99;
char b = 'a';
float c = 0.2f;

if(a <= 99)
printf("a = &#37;d, b = %c, c = %f\n", a, b, c);

return 0;
}

As for moving the wiki, I guess we wait for dwks? If you read this dwks, make sure you read post #16 (http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showpost.php?p=717855&postcount=16). If you need a list of the 'work arounds'... I'd be happy to give them :)

whiteflags
02-14-2008, 03:36 PM
We can settle this on the discussion page, if people are fine with mosying over there. I think we can illustrate the wrongs, as laserlight said, and close with Mario's statement.

In addition to the first paragraph:


When "smart indenting" is turned off, it creates a potential problem for the plain text source file when it is used by a different program such as another editor or a web browser. Consider a source file which looks like this in a fancy editor:


if (search && source) {
while (*search && *source) {
if (*search == '\\') { /**match escaped star**/
++search;
match = *search == '*' && *search == *source;


In a simple, plain text editor, if the same code looks like this:


if (search && source) {
while (*search && *source) {
if (*search == '\\') { /**match escaped star**/
++search;
match = *search == '*' && *search == *source;

it is clear that the programmer failed to rely on editor features but continued to indent as if they were there. A bad thing, since the result is no consistency, and in effect, no indentation. This is an important reality for thread posters on cboard to face, because they will be frequently pasting their code around outside of their friendly editor.

On a few remaining editors the tab key cannot create space-character indentation. On these editors, it is a good suggestion to avoid indentation based on space characters. On any other editors where the user has an option to choose whether the tab key creates space characters or tab characters, one should use what they feel most comfortable with. It will at least provide consistent plain text.

Something like that?

Mario F.
02-14-2008, 03:56 PM
Yep. That would do just fine.

dwks
02-14-2008, 08:11 PM
Seriously, if you knew some of the 'work arounds' I had to do to get it working on sf.net -- I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be happy. On that subject, is anyone keeping backups? (If not, log-on to phpmyadmin and dump the SQL database, or tell me to do so). I'd say move it, because some of the security issues are pretty critical.
I haven't backed it up yet -- nor will I be able to on this slow connection. Please, do so. :)


As for moving the wiki, I guess we wait for dwks? If you read this dwks, make sure you read post #16. If you need a list of the 'work arounds'... I'd be happy to give them :)
I did notice a few places you'd modified the Wiki when I was installing the logo . . . :) If you have a list, I'd be interested in seeing it -- but don't go and compose one just because I asked; I could always browse around the server to see what was changed.

I guess if that's the case I should try to see if I can get the wiki running on my site. I will have a faster connection on Saturday (that's two days from now), so I can try setting it up then if you like. Though I might end up just giving you the password and letting you do it again. :D

So I guess I'll need to set up a MySQL database . . . and should I upgrade the wiki while I'm at it? We did use an older version because of sf's PHP version, right? I wonder if it would be easy to transfer the data to a newer version of MediaWiki . . . .

laserlight
02-14-2008, 10:57 PM
At the moment with the amount of content we have now we could just take a backup then start from scratch if necessary.

Mario F.
02-15-2008, 05:29 AM
I have the whole of boost manually backed up to a txt file, as articles are being added or changed.

dwks
02-15-2008, 04:31 PM
Yes, I have old versions of most of the articles I wrote as well, void main and gets and so on. I think we need a complete backup, though.

zacs7
02-17-2008, 12:18 AM
I made one on the 15th, a complete SQL dump.

As for the wiki on your server, download the latest media wiki and set it up (we can try export the data from the current wiki) run both in parallel to get the one on your server working? Or rather see how it goes, such as server load, bandwidth, etc.

As for the list of 'naughties', I'd rather not publish them -- perhaps I'll pm you later ;)