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View Full Version : Heaven, Hell, and Aetheists/Non-believers



Aran
09-07-2001, 04:15 PM
I was wondering what you all think about this:

do aetheist/non-believers go to hell when they die? why? how?

if someone does no believe in hell, how can they go there? to them, it doesn't exist, so it doesn't and they can't go there. I don't see how hell can exist if people know it doesn't. Most of religion is a "just because." situation because it is unexplainable and makes no sence. I think that the cristian/catholic church should just say that all science is completely wrong, because sooner or later cristianity is going to end because of the scientists. Although we won't find all the ansers we are looking for, we'll find enough to stop believing in the literal translation of something metaphorical (which is stupid, and is why i dislike catholicism/christianity)...

i am an aetheist, btw.

what are your views?

feel free to flame me if this offends you as a catholic/christian; i can fight you at any turn and win.

gordy
09-07-2001, 04:27 PM
hehe, the last religion discussion went like widfire so i'm lining up with you aran against the "i can't work out m own morals so i'll use someone elses" club.

Nick
09-07-2001, 04:51 PM
if someone does no believe in hell, how can they go there? to them, it doesn't exist, so it doesn't and they can't go there. I don't see how hell can exist if people know it doesn't.





Atoms existed and people used to think otherwise. It's quite concievable


that hell is in another world.





Can we really stop this debate wasn't the last one enough?

BTW if you were really atheist why would you want to convince
me to become an atheist?

Theologian
09-07-2001, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Aran Elus
I was wondering what you all think about this:
if someone does no believe in hell, how can they go there?

This is really a rather silly question.

If someone does not believe in gravity will they fall? How could they if they don't believe?

Because if something exists, it does- regardless of one's opinion in regards to that thing. This is true of any reality.

Whether or not you or I believe in hell is irrelevant to whether or not it exists.

The rest of the thread is just gonna go downhill fast- but I couldn't resist this little bit.

Nick
09-07-2001, 04:58 PM
i'm lining up with you aran against the "i can't work out m own morals so i'll use someone elses" club.

A statement which contradicts its self.

ehsiq
09-07-2001, 05:02 PM
the last time we talked about religion was...wow...anyway.
Aran Elus i am an atheist too.
still there are some points in your theory that are not correct
as Theologian said. still there are other explanations about
atheism. anyway, without going like the other time, who of
you ppl are atheist? (answer with a yes and a no only)???

ehsiq
09-07-2001, 05:04 PM
hm...sorry if i change your thread.

Aran
09-07-2001, 05:07 PM
(in response to nick)
it most definately does not, although it is slightly misworded.

he is talking about how catholicism/christianity sets up the morals and the rules for the people to follow without question in order to make them feel like they are 'doing the right thing'.

Christianiy/Catholicism is just a way that some people try to deny their past and look toward a future that will boomerange them when it comes because their beliefs make them backwards. It's a strange effect, but it's what this religion ends up leading to. If you deny your past, where will your future lead?

ohh, and, hell, by nature, is not 'another world', it wouldn't be able to be 'another world'. If it actually does exist it would exist on an alternate plane or dimension of earth or the universe. But i see hell as the hammer that you are threatened with but that doesn't actually exist. It is a tool to keep the members of the religion in line, for, without it, there would be no reason not to sin. It's a very ugly way that christianity/catholicism works and it taps into the primal side of humans while it denies it: this is a very big mistake and will cause catastrophe if not mended soon.

I have no problem with catholics/christians and i do not wish them to become an aetheist if they use their religion as their backbone and draw strength from it (like i did once). It's a matter of sence, of which catholicism/christianity is making less and less

Aran
09-07-2001, 05:12 PM
maybe instead of having a conversation like

"Hey, i'm an aetheist"
"I am too"
"you going to go to hell because you don't believe in god"
"What if i don't believe in it?"
blahblahblah...

we should just discuss the weaknesses of religion and how to design the best possible one. Now that i see how this board is going to take my ideas, i've decided it's best not to delve to deep, there. (and, btw, i haven't seen any past religion-related threads here.. well, maybe one, but i don't believe i participated.)

Pendragon
09-07-2001, 05:22 PM
In my opinion religion is a disease that clouds judgement and forces invisible barriers between people.
More wars have been fought over religion than over anything.
Nearly all religions have their *morals* but they all go to scabe when another religion disagrees with them. They *think* they're doing the best thing by their standards whilst totally throwing their morals out of the mswindow.

But that's just me...;)

Aran
09-07-2001, 05:27 PM
wow, that's exactly what i was going to write if someone responded futher on the original track of this discussion.

heh, religion is a blinder, pure and simple.

Pendragon
09-07-2001, 05:31 PM
Great minds think alike.... ;)

Hopefully noone will be offended by my spontaneous outburst. They usually are... :D

Pendragon
09-07-2001, 05:39 PM
It's a shame really...

Generator
09-07-2001, 06:04 PM
I think religion was created as a way to control lower class society back in the day. The upper class were scared there were more poor people than them and said "hey what if we made them believe in this, they wont come kill us eat our stuff and take our money." and thus began religion. A way to control society by playing with their beliefs. Of course I could be wrong...

Nick
09-07-2001, 06:53 PM
I was kind of joking, though it sounds like he was doing that "me too thing". Atheistism is just has much a religion as christanity. I love how athiest think they are "rebels". It's interesting because why would anyone want to convince anyone to be Atheist?

Hell is interpreted in different ways, fire and brim stone, just
seperation from God. It's not really dwelt on in the bible.




hh, and, hell, by nature, is not 'another world', it wouldn't be able to be 'another world'. If it actually does exist it would exist on an alternate plane or dimension of earth or the universe. But i see hell as the hammer that you are threatened with but that doesn't actually exist. It is a tool to keep the members of the religion in line, for, without it, there would be no reason not to sin. It's a very ugly way that christianity/catholicism works and it taps into the primal side of humans while it denies it: this is a very big mistake and will cause catastrophe if not mended soon.

There is no scientific evidence to support or not to support the
view that there could be different universes with different
laws. It could be in this universe but perhaps in a different
galaxy, we would never be able to know. It is a different world
as we know it. Charity just to avoid hell is not a christen's belief. I'm not sure where you get the idea that christens threaten you with hell.

Koshare
09-07-2001, 08:09 PM
If you know one thing about science it is that man created it, science did not create man. Science is just as much of a religion as anything else, you die and there are no consequences, exactly like satan would describe life to a man.

I was not a Christian until I read a small verse in the bible, It described a leviathin, this leviathin spit out fire and death, lurked under the water, and was made of material stronger than stone. It was a massive beast that was nearly invincible. The Leviathin sounded strangly like a submarine, there were many coninsidences(sp?).


Actually I originaly only believed in the old testament(the torah) until reading revelation. In revelation man creates a beast, there is an army of 200 million soldiers(a ridiculous number at the time), and people are marked to keep track of. At the time none of these were possible, but current day it is possible.


One thing that I have found strange is mans obsession with technology, in the bible God wanted men to carry the altar instead of horses, since using horses involved technology. Man is always trying to create utopia, supposedly we are suppierior to the man of yesteryear, but if evolution is true then we are actually vastly inferior(de evolution).


Ok, lets look at the beggining of the universe, now if the big bang actually happened, it would have happened infintly earlier, because as we all know matter doesnt just matterialize, and the universe would have had to existed forever according to the laws of physics.
--------
Now lets look at the beggining of life, Rna was the first life form to exist, not only that it had to have the ability to replicate to evolve. At the time there was no refined food, so Rna would have had to have absorbed each other to survive. Now what happens next is more intresting, a cell wall is formed, and when it was formed an RNA was captured in it. this Rna did not only replicate itself but the cell also.

The above is the accepted theory, and the chance of all of that falling together in the course of 15 billion years in a universe as big as it is insane! and if life on mars did exist, then that means the process of life is fairly common, and all scientific theorys would be shattered.


but, I believe that if you lead a good life God will have mercy on you...



"More wars have been fought over religion than over anything. "

More people have died from atheism, Hitler used Religion as one of many shields to allow him to do his work, Stalin killed jews, and christians. Japan had religion during WW2 but it was not that important, they killed lots of people. The crusades were an excuse to pillage and plunder other countries. There was a say "Kill a jew save your soul" if they actually read the bible they would not kill any jews- Which is why the bible was outlawed except for priests at the time.

Tell me one war that was truly motivated by Judaism\Christianity
(wars of Moses day dont count- its called revenge)

DavidP
09-07-2001, 08:33 PM
Another religion discussion!



do aetheist/non-believers go to hell when they die? why? how?


Have you not read my lengthy report on the after life in the last religion thread? It says where non-believers go. I believe it was in my first reply to the last religion thread...go read it...



ALSO (in a booming voice),

I intend to prove that God does exist through the use of science. Through science I will prove that God exists.

The Bible and science DO coexist. They do not contradict. I will prove it.

Obviously I cannot do it all at once, but I will report on particular things as they are...discovered...

Part 1:

The believers and non-believers continually argue about how long the Earth has existed. The non-believers are correct in this instance, but that does NOT prove that God does not exist. In FACT, it helps prove that he DOES.

In Genesis it says that God created the Earth in 7 days (if you count the day of rest at the end, if you want to be anal about it, we will say 6). Go back to the original meaning of the word day in Hebrew.

The original meaning is: from the time something starts to the time something finishes.

It did NOT originally mean a 24 hour period. Therefore, in the book of Genesis, each "day" is just from the time something started to the time something finished. Therefore, each day in the creation could be several billion years.

Part 2:

God's time compared to our time. It is said in the Bible that 1000 years to us is 1 day to God. This is entirely possible using the Theory of Relativity. According to the Theory of Relativity, time flow changes according to the amount of gravity. Therefore, where God exists, there could be an incredible difference in gravity compared to us, and so 1 day to him is 1000 years to us. It is highly possible.

That is all for now.

rick barclay
09-07-2001, 08:55 PM
Oh, boy. :rolleyes: Heeeeeerrrrre weeee gooooooooo..................

Nick
09-07-2001, 10:51 PM
It's pretty much accepted that in science you don't talk about God, you leave that kind of stuft those ph people. You can't prove God exist but you can't prove
God can't exist so no point argueing.

Pendragon
09-08-2001, 03:14 AM
That's fair enough.

It does make an interesting debate though, until we start going around in circles that is.

ehsiq
09-08-2001, 06:55 AM
to koshare

>>Science is just as much of a religion as anything else<

??? what are you talking about? this is ridiculous

>>I was not a Christian until I read a small verse in the bible<

i was not a horror films fun until i read the revelation...lol
oh ... lol...how can anyone belive in revelation??? HOW?? LOL

david..please not one of these huge things again :( :( please...



anyway, i am glad to see that in this thread we have more atheists
than the previous one!!! this means that more programmers (or
wannabe programmers) exists and they are atheists :) :)

this is good!


hey ppl....let's not start again...it is boring again...

ggs
09-08-2001, 03:31 PM
Hey, we're all programmers here. We should be able to think logically, especially as it is our job.

I'm a Catholic, but in the end I believe religion does not matter so much as where your moral compass is pointing.

Anyways, flaming each other for religion/lack thereof just devalues your viewpoint. So does trolling.

Aran
09-08-2001, 03:38 PM
Digest this:

the bible is metaphorical.

how can humans know about some of this crazy stuf that is in the bible? it just doesn't make sense if you use your head.

Aran
09-08-2001, 03:39 PM
I am not saying the catholicism/christianity is bad, or wrong, i'm only saying that it is poorly designed and is counterproductive and vastly innefecient as far as a religion goes.

Believe in whatever you want, as long as you believe it to be to your own benefit and not contributing to your own demise.

RobS
09-08-2001, 03:40 PM
"Ok, lets look at the beggining of the universe, now if the big bang actually happened, it would have happened infintly earlier, because as we all know matter doesnt just matterialize, and the universe would have had to existed forever according to the laws of physics."

Matter can and does just materialise, it's called pair production. It happens all the time and relies on the uncertainty principle.
It's a phenomona (sp?) which can even allow us to spot black holes.
Laws of Physics is a horrible term as well. They're just mathematical equations describing how things behave. They change, they evolve, they get replaced. Until Einstein published his theory of relativity everyone thought you could accelerate things to any speed given enough force and time, we now know that to be true.
That's odd, a read a couple of articles recently, and if I get the time I'll try and get the actual papers where the laws of physics pretty much allow a big bang which works with all the current theories of Quantum Physics where the Universe can start in a moment of Quantum Uncertainty

master5001
09-08-2001, 04:02 PM
I too am an aetheist and I don't believe in hell or heaven. When you die you die. Ever see a dead cat on the road? Its just dead, not in heaven, dead. Thats life for you. A beginning a dramatic middle and an end.

Here is something that some may find interesting though, my mother and older sister are jahovah's witnesses and apparently that religion doesn't believe in hell. They also don't celebrate any holidays either, its no wonder (to me at least) why they NEED to go door to door to find people.

Zach L.
09-08-2001, 04:31 PM
I fail to see why people are continuously trying to convert others (to Atheism, from Atheism, to Christianity, etc.). Why does someone else's religion/belief/whatever affect you?

The beliefs normally thought of as religion and science are not perfect, and fail to account for things. Science is not perfect. There is no known reason why the universe exists (and why it exists as it does). Similarly, religion fails to account for why God exists and why God would decide to create the universe/life/etc. Religion and science are both "theories" to explain why things are the way they are. Neither one can be proven, and neither can be disproven.

As for the proof of God's existence by the use of the Theory of Relativity, that is not a real proof. It simply shows that in those respects, they do not contradict each other.

Oh, and if anyone is wondering, I am an atheist.

Aran
09-08-2001, 06:09 PM
new point of discussion:

what if the bible is metaphorical ( wrong word here )? There are enough holes in it to point to that idea, and most of it can be applied to evolution/sciences that weren't discovered back then. Who knows? maybe the apostles where scientists at heart?


(i believe it is hypothetical.)

ehsiq
09-08-2001, 06:35 PM
to master5001

hey man, your family is jahovah's witnesses and you are an atheist?
this is great! i thought that when a member of these families change
his/her mind it was something like betray.
what do they think of you? and also good for you because you stood up
and used your brain instead of accept all these bull****.

i know two people ,jahovah's witnesses and they are so close minded...
good for you!

Aran
09-08-2001, 08:37 PM
religions aren't bullshingles. it's only that religions are for people who are too mentally weak (have been trained so, or just bacame so) to stand on their own moral ground (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing) and completely throw aside the logic of ethics.

it's all ethics to me.

master5001
09-09-2001, 12:34 AM
to ehsiq

hehe well my sister tries to convert me all of the time but no one feels betrayed since according to the religion "everyone must choose their own path in life." I guess at some point in time I started thinking things like "Adam and Eve? are we all imbred" and eventually departed from the teachings of any church. I don't plan on killing, stealing, raping, or doing any other act of "sin" so that should be considered close enough for any religious person.

Pendragon
09-09-2001, 04:49 AM
I suppose some people need to have something like a deity to believe in.

It adds and extra angle to their life which they might feel they need.

(Please note *might*)

-KEN-
09-09-2001, 07:38 AM
The funniest thing that I find is that no matter how hard you try, you can never shake my belief. Sure, I question things all the time. You really think that just because I'm catholic, I just listen to everything and go "Yep, so true...that's how it goes!" No, I sit there and think about what someone's saying, or what I'm reading.

Ok, I'm wondering how if you have absolutely nothing, some matter will just spontaneously appear. Think about it. NOTHING. nothing. _*NOTHING*_. That' means absolutely nothing (get the point? :p) and you expect matter to just ::poof:: appear? *scartches head* go figure.

Aran
09-09-2001, 09:54 AM
who cares about the beginning of the universe

obviously, God created the earth, and then the stars around it, so therefor the Earth should be the centre of the universe, which it has proven to not be.

from a scientific perspective: maybe the universe followed a strangely different physics when it came into exstance? maybe after a few trillion years the physics of our universe matured to the point that they are at now, where we falsely apply them to times when they didn't hold true?

just making suggestions...

Barjor
09-10-2001, 02:18 PM
So god created universe from....nothing. he toke a handful of nothing and oof:: he built the universe?... Nah that doesn't compute.
I can highly recomend to read Dalai Lamas books. I think everyone can find some good points in there, beliver or not.
I also really enjoyed Stephen Hawikins book "A brief history,,,,"

I am an Atheist
~Barjor