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kooma
01-21-2002, 09:49 AM
So?

gordy
01-21-2002, 02:19 PM
i reckon they got it made. their own spot in the sun...no fighting over sun beds or annoying little kids screaming their heads of. i suppose they could be doing with a pool and a free bar but you can't have everything y'know. :)

novacain
01-21-2002, 09:22 PM
Still waiting for details (French are going there).

But I disagree with the US (a suprise).

We are either having a war on terrorism, in which case they are POW's and the US is volating international law by refusing them conditions in accordance with the Geneva convention.

OR (if not a war)

The US has attacked Afganistan illegally, in a similar way Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. There has been no proof submitted in an international court what so ever. So attacking Bin Laudin / Afganistan is illegal. If Israel tried to hunt down and kill Arafat by bombing Palesten(?) what would the world say / do?

kooma
01-22-2002, 06:41 AM
And, after all, they're only suspects (not that one should put the worst criminals in such inhuman state).

Interesting point you got there novacain (that analogy about Pearl Harbour)...

mithrandir
01-22-2002, 07:30 AM
The bastards deserve everything they get.

Govtcheez
01-22-2002, 07:47 AM
Let's see -
their previous lives:
1)living in caves
2)getting the crap bombed out of them
3)probably half-starving

now:
1)living in cages
2)no bombs
3)Froot Loops

Which one's better? I'm not gonna spill any tears, that's for sure. You fight against a military, you sure as hell better be ready to lose.

Govtcheez
01-22-2002, 07:49 AM
Also - Auschwitz? Please. We're holding them - no one's dying or anything.

(note:what's a "Yeah!" response mean? There's no question...)

novacain
01-22-2002, 09:01 PM
The main point is

Are we having a war on terrorism?

If so why does the US not abide by international law? Innocent until proven guilty and all that. If you do not then you are no better than the terrorists, you have sunk to their level.

Being good is MUCH harder than being evil. Has the US the moral fiber to do so?

Only time will tell.

lightatdawn
01-22-2002, 09:06 PM
>>If so why does the US not abide by international law?

Umm... Do they usually? Does anybody? Laws get broken by whoever figures they can get away with it. Anyone betting the US wont get away with it? ... Didnt think so.

gnu-ehacks
01-22-2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
Let's see -
their previous lives:
1)living in caves
2)getting the crap bombed out of them
3)probably half-starving

now:
1)living in cages
2)no bombs
3)Froot Loops

Which one's better? I'm not gonna spill any tears, that's for sure. You fight against a military, you sure as hell better be ready to lose.

Amen Govtcheez! What kind of an idiot person fights a war with a huge world power with a huge military, and expects not to die, or be captured? They knew what they were getting in to when they started this, and therefore, they have gotten what they have deserved.

Also, the U.S. has release proof (not publicly) to the U.N., and they seem to find it convincing enough to allow this to go on...Anyways, even if he wasn't responsible for the September 11th attacks on America, Bin Laden was responsible for numerous other attacks on embasies...

novacain
01-23-2002, 12:01 AM
>>(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

And sending CIA 'advisors' to train Pakistani army officers to assasinate Bin Laudin was? (abandoned because of coup in Pakistan) Remember he has not been convicted / charged with any crime.

Secretly selling arms to forces that oppose democratic governments and to opposing countries is? (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, ect, ect)

Trading prisoners for arms is? (Iran contra)


The US wants to be the good guy, so act like one. Or we soon we will all believe you to be no better than them.
As far as I can see the US only pays lip service to these rules unless someone else violates them and them the US uses the rules to get what it wants. ie US Export Tax subsidies now (4 years later) declared illegal (bit late for those third world famers).

kooma
01-23-2002, 06:34 AM
> What kind of an idiot person fights a war with a huge world power with a huge military, and expects not to die, or be captured? They knew what they were getting in to when they started this, and therefore, they have gotten what they have deserved.

Look further to the past and you'll hopefully see that USA hasn't got all that clean history. If we drift away from the topic; Bin Laden considers that letting American soldiers touch the holy land of Saudi-Arabia (where Islam was born), is insult enough to justify those terrorist attacks. Now you must say that it isn't but then again there's no universal moral saying that it isn't.

And say that America protects democracy & freedom while it's bombing Afganistan, it's the strategical position in the middle of five countries armed with nuclear weapons and oil pipe that they want to pull through the land (doesn't it sound prophetical that while they were negotiating with Talebans (couple months ago before WTC) and failed to come with a result, a negotiator of USA said that either they do as we want or else we'll use other ways to get it).

> Also, the U.S. has release proof (not publicly) to the U.N., and they seem to find it convincing enough to allow this to go on...Anyways, even if he wasn't responsible for the September 11th attacks on America, Bin Laden was responsible for numerous other attacks on embasies...

Yet, I haven't seen a single evidence on that. I even wouldn't be that surprised if they'd found out that Bin Laden is non-existent scape-goat made up as an excuse to roam across the world and getting what USA wants... But, lets say that he exists (as he most likely does), what could that evidence possibly be while it is so secret that it could harm somebody if I would see it?


But, for the topic. Don't you pay any attention to the fact that they are just suspects. Imagine the work and the amount of time that digging up 500 persons background would take.

And where's the humanity: discussions about some agreements, etc... what a boredom and ignoracy! No matter what has some person done, one shouldn't in no circumstances be in a condition they are in Guantanamo! (It's a matter of minutes when an average person starts to panic after he has been totally isolated from the outside world (can't see, hear or move - not all are true in Guantanamo though)).

Govtcheez
01-23-2002, 07:22 AM
I still fail to see how it's a violation of their human rights if their standard of living's actually been increased.

>Yet, I haven't seen a single evidence on that.

You haven't? Maybe Finland (or Sweden - forgive me, I can't remember which) doesn't get CNN, then, but bin Laden's released at least 2 tapes where he talks about how the attacks were more successful than he hoped they would be.

kooma
01-23-2002, 09:22 AM
> I still fail to see how it's a violation of their human rights if their standard of living's actually been increased.

Somebody missed the joke... :-)

> >Yet, I haven't seen a single evidence on that.
>You haven't? Maybe Finland (or Sweden - forgive me, I can't remember which) doesn't get CNN, then, but bin Laden's released at least 2 tapes where he talks about how the attacks were more successful than he hoped they would be.

Finland... Anyway, I really doubt that even a fundamentalist begins an everyday conversation by saying ``May Allah be blessed''. And, If I remember right, he didn't actually said that he did it. But ask from the generals, are people in Guantanamo part of Al-Qaeda or Taleban?

Govtcheez
01-23-2002, 09:32 AM
> Somebody missed the joke... :-)

Guess so...

> Finland...

I realized that after I read your sig but was too lazy to change my answer :)

> If I remember right, he didn't actually said that he did it.

I thoguht there was a point where he said that the attacks were a lot more successful than he had hope they would be. This at least shows he knew about them ahead of time...

> But ask from the generals, are people in Guantanamo part of Al-Qaeda or Taleban?

AFAIK, from both...

Why don't we turn this around a little. kooma, if bin Laden didn't do it, who did, and what do we do about it?

mix0matt
01-23-2002, 09:36 AM
no offense kooma, but i think the reference to Auschwitz is disgusting...i can't believe people even choose that option. if it's how they feel, they view of the world is far from reality. if their responses were a joke, it's just sick...it's just my opinion, but i don't think it's cool at all. . .

novacain
01-23-2002, 10:25 PM
>>but bin Laden's released at least 2 tapes where he talks about how the attacks were more successful than he hoped they would be.

Actually they were captured after the bombing. If that happened in the US would the video be allowed in court? I don't think so, illegially obtained.

Remember this is the first attack on mainland US since the war of Independence and the first attack on the US since Pearl Harbour.
These people did not plan the attack nor participate in it to a major degree, if they even knew of it. They are just foot soliders following orders.

gnu-ehacks
01-23-2002, 10:58 PM
There was the war of 1812...

novacain
01-24-2002, 12:13 AM
>>What is that name of the New Station in the middle east? Bin Laden game it to them, how in the world is illigall obtained.

No the tapes of Bin Laudin discussing the attack with a Pakistani cleric were captured in Afghanistan. Tapes of him declaring Jihad were sent to the news station. (or so was reported here) All after the bombing had started.

Unregistered
01-24-2002, 12:31 AM
>
What is that name of the New Station in the middle east? Bin Laden game it to them, how in the world is illigall obtained.
<
I wonder why did the tape visit holywood before it in the news..

DISGUISED
01-24-2002, 12:54 AM
Those people are there for a reason. They are guilty of crimes against the freedom we all enjoy. The things they did in their own country was bad enough to deserve prison time. Disgusting. Who cares if they are only foot soldiers. They are still accomplices. If I don't pull the trigger in this country I am still going to jail for assisting in the effort. They will do the same. Besides that, they are being treated much better, and are safer compared to most people in our own prisons. Don't feel sorry for those people, there is no reason to.

Unregistered
01-24-2002, 01:02 AM
They are guilty of crimes against the freedom we all enjoy.

How about the crimes your freedom/country did to them?

DISGUISED
01-24-2002, 01:11 AM
How about the crimes your freedom/country did to them?

That really doesn't make much sense to me, but I'll play along. What crimes have been committed against them? When I say the freedom we all enjoy, I mean the free world, not just the United States the best country on the planet ;)

novacain
01-24-2002, 04:22 AM
>>OK novacain heres what I think, since your so sure that Bin Laden is inocent, then You Must be responsible.

I did not say I thought he was innocent, I said the prisoners that you have are not being treated in accordance with international law.
If the US is so great where is Bin Laudin. $6.4B and you can not find him.

If the prisoners are being treated fairly why is the American, Hicks is it, treated differently? Because he is a US citizen not an Afghanii / Pakistanii?

>>The fact that are compains emply people in 3ed world coutnries and pay them very little, but yet fail to relize that paying them more would cause more dammage then good.

WHAT! Are you serious. Paying people a wage they could live on rather than exploiting them, like 'The Gap' and 'Nike' do, would cause THEM problems? Name ONE.

Its attitudes like yours created Bin Laudin, and continue to create more. They are being trained as children to kill. Ah but then so are yours, only each other.
Soon even we will not allow your ships into our ports. New Zealand has already banned them. (and there ain't no other place to go down here!)

Govtcheez
01-24-2002, 07:16 AM
> How about the crimes your freedom/country did to them?

Name one.

> I wonder why did the tape visit holywood before it in the news..

Evidence, please - otherwise what you say is garbage.

> Because he is a US citizen not an Afghanii / Pakistanii?

Exactly. As a US citizen fighting against the US, he's subject to different laws. It wouldn't be very effective for us to hold other countries' citizens responsible for treason, would it?

> If that happened in the US would the video be allowed in court? I don't think so, illegially obtained.

Illegally obtained how? Also, they weren't presented in court...

kooma
01-24-2002, 07:49 AM
> Why don't we turn this around a little. kooma, if bin Laden didn't do it, who did, and what do we do about it?

Who cares! It, and the unfortunant counter-strike, sure has open some eyes across the world (though somebodies tend to look to the wrong direction). Perhaps the same guy who played with anthrax...

>> How about the crimes your freedom/country did to them?

> Name one.

(I'm not speaking for novacain here, but...) So far, you (USA) have managed to accidentally kill at least twice as much civilians as did the WTC-strike (and this estimate is a careful one...). Count the destroyed homes, count the numerous refugees if you dare, but do remove that blindfold from your head.

But, I don't blame you for something you don't know. It's the Western media (which I experience here in Finland too), that keeps saying ``Bad Afganii!''. One who lives here must have a objective source of information - not that TV and newspaper.

> They are guilty of crimes against the freedom we all enjoy

I don't feel like enjoying much of a freedom here. I'm maybe doing it more than a refugee from Afganistan, but I'm certainly not free, int the true sense of the word! And the best country in the world, as you say, is sure not helping me to achieve it (or noone else - exclude American millionares...).

I see that were slipping from the path of facts and objectivity here... Not this much emotions please...

Govtcheez
01-24-2002, 07:58 AM
We killed 6000 civilians accidentally?

I highly doubt that - I'd like to see some of your "objective" information.

> Who cares!

Well, the people it happened to, for one. I don't think anyone who was in the WTC or lost friends and relatives would be very happy if Bush just said "Well, crap - that's no good"

> count the numerous refugees if you dare

You honestly believe US incursions into Afghanistan have caused more than the Taliban would have in the same amount of time?

novacain
01-24-2002, 08:16 PM
>>It wouldn't be very effective for us to hold other countries' citizens responsible for treason, would it?

What are you holding them for then? Did the prisoners play any part in Sept 11? As Bin Laudin stated in the video, the bombers did not even know what they were going to actually do, I doubt the average fighter knew.

Look deep down, past the hype, to the base emotion. Is all this about JUSTICE or REVENGE?

For a moment transpose Afghanii for Irish, Taliban / Al Queda for IRA.
A lepricorn(?) was seen at the airport, passengrs called Paddy, Murphy and O'something, ect.

Would Ireland be in flames at the moment?

Govtcheez
01-24-2002, 08:39 PM
No, becuase AFAIK, the IRA doesn't run Ireland... If they did and they participated, I'm sure it would be.

> What are you holding them for then

Let's see - they came at us with guns...

kooma
01-25-2002, 01:59 AM
> We killed 6000 civilians accidentally?
> I highly doubt that - I'd like to see some of your "objective" information.



"What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties -- 3,767 [thru December 6, 2001] civilian deaths in eight and a half weeks -- in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan? The explanation is the apparent willingness of U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into and drop bombs upon, heavily populated areas of Afghanistan."

-- Professor Marc W. Herold, Ph.D., M.B.A., B.Sc.
from http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

>> Who cares!
> Well, the people it happened to, for one. I don't think anyone who was in the WTC or lost friends and relatives would be very happy if Bush just said "Well, crap - that's no good"

One must see that terrorism is a symptom - the disease is much deeper; Don't scratch a scar or it might get infected (at least it makes the healing process longer).

> Most compaines pay miinumn wage in the country they are in. Some places don't follow the rules and they are punshed accoringly

When was the last time you heard about Nike/Chiquita/Kelloggs/Shell/etc. being in a court?

> The US as super power needs to be involved in the worlds politics, but it can't handle everything so it will go to the areas liek the middle east witch have a biger inpact on the world then lets say, some small coutnry in Africa

Ain't that a bit egoist/megalomanic point of view. Look in the past, and you'll see what has the white man's burden brought.

Unregistered
01-25-2002, 04:43 AM
http://www.davidduke.com/writings/howisraeliterror.shtml

Unregistered
01-25-2002, 05:13 AM
A minute of silence For Everyone ?

If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by troups supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.

If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit.

Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where American troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead.

Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.

Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).

Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Bagdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation?

We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the cowardly attacks and other tragedies that they have caused around the world.

The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers, even more!

Now, let's talk about terrorism, shall we?

Govtcheez
01-25-2002, 07:25 AM
> A minute of silence For Everyone ?

I'm so sick of this BS "explanation"... Yes, we funded people that eventually turned out to be not so good. Well, if we go back far enough, the British funded us to colonize here in the first place. Someone had to provied British ancestors with cash to make it to their island. There was money needed to get in a position to make it that far, even. And so on, and so on - you want to trace it back far enough - there's always people providing money for something that bites them in the ass.

Also, I very, very much resent this statement.

> Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

That was a war, and totally different. The bombs prevented more casualties than they caused.

If you think I'm going to a website somewhere in davidduke.com - you've lost your mind.

kooma
01-25-2002, 12:13 PM
> Well, if we go back far enough, the British funded us to colonize here in the first place

Should I ask:
Do you consider yourself as a British or an American.
or admit that:
British people are the bastards here?

> [...] there's always people providing money for something that bites them in the ass.

Solution: provide no money!

Govtcheez
01-25-2002, 12:19 PM
> British people are the bastards here?

Hey - if someone points the finger at me, I'll use the same logic to direct it elsewhere, thanks. I consider myself an American, btw...

> Solution: provide no money!

Result: People being to complain to the US "You gave all these people money, give us money too!"

kooma
01-26-2002, 04:11 AM
>> Solution: provide no money!

> Result: People being to complain to the US "You gave all these people money, give us money too!"

And that would really ........ you off, wouldn't it? :-)
Live and let live => Don't get messed up with things outside your borders and find the noone messes up inside your country ie. find the lack of terrorism.

>> Ain't that a bit egoist/megalomanic point of view. Look in the past, and you'll see what has the white man's burden brought.

> No, it's a practical view. Whtich is the better option:
Win/loose
win/win

win/win might as well as be loose/loose to the object of your actions...

>> When was the last time you heard about Nike/Chiquita/Kelloggs/Shell/etc. being in a court?

> Find me a recent article on acompany underpaying there enployes,

google -> big supranational company (some names above) plus the word `boycott'

novacain
01-28-2002, 08:01 PM
>>That was a war, and totally different.

Ahh. And so we are back to the begining of this thread.

This is a war when it suits the US and now it does not.
So we now have a new term in war 'unlawful combatants' [to go with 'collateral damage' (civillian casualty in the Gulf)]. Sounds much better than political prisioner and I suppose 'Naughty boys' does not cut it.

> NVC->What are you holding them for then

> GVCh ->Let's see - they came at us with guns...

Sorry. They were in thier own country with US bombs raining down and had guns to defend themselves.
Your right, string them all up. How dare they, when you came in peace too (because remember, we are not having a war).

tim545666
01-28-2002, 08:18 PM
This quote is old but I have to bring it up

If so why does the US not abide by international law?
Because international law is trash and we can get away with it because we can beat the .......... out of any other country in the world. This "war" is not about jusice (we shold all realize that); rather it is about revenge and prevention. Why is revenge refered to as a negative? If someone hits you, you hit them back because you have to. If you just stand there you will get the crap beat out of you. That's just like war. We have to fight back to set an example as well as try to prevent the same people form doing it again. Plus, the American people will be damn ........ed if Bush didn't take military action (he really didn't have a choice).

...Aren't you glad Al 'Idiot' Gore isn't president?

novacain
01-28-2002, 11:23 PM
>>a lot of nations would not have bothered with anything other than summary execution

True, it is standard OP.

When you take them though, as they are good for propaganda and intel, you have to look after them, thats the rules. Even Colin Powel(?) is complaining.

>>Because international law is trash and we can get away with it because we can beat the .......... out of any other country in the world.

Ahh, the truth. We are big so f**k the rest of you. Nice.
Seeing my town, in the middle of nowhere, is full of US sailors from three of the ships that have returned from the 'war'. I'll remember that when I next see one and treat them accordingly.

tim545666
01-28-2002, 11:36 PM
When I said "...international law is trash..." I guess I didn't explain myself. What I meant is there's no way in hell to reach a true agreement from every single nation in the world about laws, so they are bound to be violated. Different nations have different views, so international law cannot work.



GO PATRIOTS, DOWN WITH THE RAMS!!!!