PDA

View Full Version : Question for PC Gamers: How much have you spent on certain games? ...



drallstars
05-10-2007, 06:16 PM
Hi guys

This is a request for any PC gamers out there to help out with some of our game development research by answering the poll questions on the link below.

The questions are: How much have you ever spent on one windows PC computer game? And; How much has your latest most favorite PC game cost you since it's purchase?

For those who participate; Thank you for contributing towards our game project and have a nice day.

http://www.etgames.org/research/pollGameCost.php

MacGyver
05-10-2007, 06:35 PM
Game I'm currently playing is Battlefield 2142. Very good game, although I can't stand respawning just to die almost right away. ;)

@nthony
05-10-2007, 07:03 PM
"Very good" and any of EA's "Battlefield" franchises have no business being in the same sentence together. "Flashy" and "gimmicky" yes, but the programming in the game is an attestament to the infinite monkey theorem.

Edit: I was so busy ranting, forgot to actually post my games:
BattleField 2 - spent around $50 (pity the fools that bought into the expansion crap). Absolutely horrendous gameplay coupled with many "wtf" moments and EA trying to mask the stench of their freshly steaming pile with fancy graphics you'll never enjoy anyways unless you owned the array of machines they used to test the game on (thats if they actually performed any testing at all).
Half-Life 2 (Source) - spent around $50. Much better peice of work, though a breakthrough mod hasn't been developed for it yet.

indigo0086
05-10-2007, 07:03 PM
I'm currently playing Compan of Heroes and love it. I didn't pay anything for it because I got it as a prize through a game trading site survey. Though I did just buy a new graphics card for about 200, so that's what I've really spent.

ulillillia
05-10-2007, 08:42 PM
The last "game" I got for the PC was Flight Simulator X Deluxe. The one before that is Midtown Madness 2 which is a rather old game. I'm far more into classics than modern games. FSX Deluxe is about $70 or so. The controls with the keyboard are extremely awkward* which caused me to lose interest in it and since I don't have nor want a joystick for something I rarely do anyway. My latest nonPC game is Final Fantasy Anthology for the Playstation 1, mainly due to a recalled event from 11 years ago that spurred my interest and motive toward getting FF6.



Footnotes:
* Normally, when you hold down the left arrow key, for example, the airplane turns left and the longer it's held down, to a certain point, the faster the rotation. Making even very basic maneuvers is nearly impossible as I tend to either crash when landing (when I'm otherwise fairly skilled at it when I played Aces over Europe 10+ years ago), and this is with no wind and otherwise perfect weather conditions.

KONI
05-11-2007, 12:37 AM
I was hesitating when answering the poll about how much I spend total on my most favorite game. Even if I don't play it anymore, I bought World of Warcraft + WoW:Burning Crusade for 50$ each, I bought the collector's edition to have it display in my room (> 50$) and I played for a little over 2 years, about 10$ per month.

That's a total of 400$ !

zacs7
05-11-2007, 06:28 AM
Yes, WoW on display in your room isn't wierd :|

The only money i've spent on games is $12 on Day Of Defeat in 1999.



Half-Life 2 (Source) - spent around $50. Much better peice of work, though a breakthrough mod hasn't been developed for it yet

Erm, SourceForts - hello ? :P

KONI
05-11-2007, 06:50 AM
Yes, WoW on display in your room isn't wierd :|

Yes, I'm a huge fan of the artwork, especially Samwise and Metzen (http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/).

I couldn't care less about the game, I think that technically speaking, it's one of the worst mmorpgs currently on the market. The graphics are damn ugly, low polygon models and weird textures (I mean come on, you can't use the SAME texture for a gnome and a tauren!) and the network code and server stability wasn't great either. The server constantly crashes when there's 100+ players at the same location, which isn't much really.

indigo0086
05-11-2007, 07:02 AM
If blizzard makes a starcraft MMO instead of an RTS I'm disowning them. And I just started playing starcraft again.

@nthony
05-11-2007, 11:20 PM
Erm, SourceForts - hello ? :P
its broke alright but definately not "through".


If blizzard makes a starcraft MMO instead of an RTS I'm disowning them. And I just started playing starcraft again.
One word(?): MMOFPSRTS.
I really don't think they have it in them, but if they could pull that off without mucking it up like EA did (it is Blizzard, so I have more faith), that would truly be an uncontestable game. However, I fear you are right, Blizzard just doesn't have the balls to take on something like that right now, and so they'll probably just stick to doing what they know best and churn out another SC clone.

maxorator
05-12-2007, 12:15 AM
I can barely play any game for a week before I'll start reverse engineering it. :)

ulillillia
05-12-2007, 12:38 AM
Isn't reverse engineering a game against the terms of most any proprietary EULA? Even without a decompiler or the related, one could still make out most of the details of a game just by studying the design and game mechanics. It takes a good skill with observation, mathematics, and knowing some basic computer programming rules (such as what happens when a variable overflows - I get this in Sonic 2 in Metropolis Zone Act 3 using debug - 594 frames of falling from stopped (don't recall the exact number but it was just under 600) causes the character to go in reverse (128 pixels per frame upwards instead of downwards)).

KONI
05-12-2007, 12:46 AM
it is Blizzard, so I have more faith

I think there is an URGENT NEED for clarification here: nearly all the successful Blizzard games are related to the very same key people that were responsible for the creative department and the gameplay ideas behind the games. Diablo was originally developed by Condor, founded by three of the most well-known Blizzard employees, Max Schaefer, Erich Schaefer, and David Brevik.
In June 2003, the most creative and best blizzard employees all LEFT BLIZZARD to create Flagship Studios, including Bill Roper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Roper_%28video_game_producer%29). There is probably no innovative thing that ever came out of Blizzard that wasn't somehow related to those people. Blizzard at the moment has no creativity, no skill and seriously, apart from their creative gameplay (from the people that left Blizzard) or good marketing, they have nothing left.

If you're looking forward to a good game, keep a close watch on Flagship Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship_Studios) and especially Hellgate: London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellgate:_London).

I seriously doubt that anything creative, innovative or even successful will ever again come out of Blizzard. They're at the moment releasing such crap for WoW, it's absolutely shocking how lazy those bastards have become. Model and texture recycling, no custom icons, no custom sounds, no custom animations ... they're just collecting the money and do nothing else.

maxorator
05-12-2007, 01:06 AM
Isn't reverse engineering a game against the terms of most any proprietary EULA?
I think for 99% cases IDA and other disassemblers are used for actions that are against the EULA.

zacs7
05-12-2007, 04:50 AM
Well if you modify it in memory then its not ;)

They just said your not allowed to modify the executable :D, its not really an 'executable' as such when its loaded into memory.

maxorator
05-13-2007, 10:43 AM
LOL, I just noticed a program I was messing with has this in EULA: "You may not disassemble or reverse engineer any part of this program. ". Yeh right, that hard drive in my box is MY piece of metal! :D

ulillillia
05-13-2007, 11:05 AM
You see it in almost any EULA (except GNU type ones, from open-source projects). It's better to just not decompile any non-GNU type program. That includes games, drivers, graphics programs, anything that is not open-source or your own creation that you programmed yourself. Another thing to note is that EULA's often state of only installing and using one copy on one computer - not using the same copy on multiple computers (unless the license agreement says so or you bought a multi-license version).

VirtualAce
05-13-2007, 02:49 PM
My latest games have been:

[list]
Sims 2 Seasons: - 29.99
Tom Clancy Splinter Cell Chaos Theory: 19.99
Test Drive: Unlimited - 39.99
BattleField 2 with all 4 exp packs: 39.99
IL2 Sturmovik: 1946 - 49.99 (from UK)
Flight Sim X Deluxe Edition: 59.99

BTW no flight sim is designed to be used with the keyboard. It would not work when flying a real plane and it doesn't work in modern flight sims. If you wanna fly go get a nice stick and throttle and you will enjoy the sim much more.

Games I've been playing:
[list]
Joint Ops and Escalation (great game but too many hackers)
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (solved it, bit buggy)
IL2 Sturmovik: 1946 (via Hyperlobby, no hackers, no crashes, - excellent)
Test Drive: Unlimited (so far just offline)


The two biggest problems in the gaming industry today are thieves and cheaters/hackers. Some people feel as if it is their right to steal the game from the company by downloading it, illegally copying it from a friend, or copying the DVD and sending the game back to the store as if it didn't work. All of these are hurting the PC gaming industry. It's a very simply concept. If you want to play a game then go buy it. It is extremely difficult to program these games and a lot of people have lost a lot of sleep, family time, and money just to bring it to your doorstep. To steal it from them is a slap in their face

Modifying a game in memory is called hacking and I would say that is against the EULA not to mention that online it ruins the game, royally ticks people off, and is a testament to one's poor character. If you gotta cheat to play then just box it back up and take it back to the store so those of us that enjoy games can play them without the morons who cheat. Modifying a game in memory via loaded DLLs or some other means is simply not acceptable. For me this is not something to joke about or condone and seriously hurts the sales of online games. Companies have spent lots of money for the purpose of preventing cheaters and yet people continually come up with ways to destroy the games by coding DLLs or modules that do auto aiming, god mode, super speed running/walking, glitching through 3D models, unlimited ammo, foliage disappearing hacks (on JO), no trees hack (JO), glowing enemy hacks (JO), etc, etc.



LOL, I just noticed a program I was messing with has this in EULA: "You may not disassemble or reverse engineer any part of this program. ". Yeh right, that hard drive in my box is MY piece of metal!


Yes but the code on the piece of metal is most certainly NOT yours. Are you gonna go steal gas just because it's YOUR car? Not pay your electric bill because it's YOUR appliances. Not pay your car payment because YOU drive the thing? Your argument is absurd.


This is not a thread about the EULA, how to get around it, or how to hack. If it does degrade into that or a discussion of how to hack or how to steal games then it will violate the forum rules and guidelines and it will be closed.

zacs7
05-14-2007, 05:04 AM
I agree, but most games wouldn't be where they are if the EULA wasn't broken.

Consider the TTD (TransPort Tycoon Deluxe) Patch for TTD, Which later led to the development of OpenTTD.

And the games I haven't been playing according to my lecturers:

* Old Playstation games (emulated) - I OWN the games.
* Xmoto
* MOHAA
* Day Of Defeat

maxorator
05-15-2007, 01:26 AM
You see it in almost any EULA (except GNU type ones, from open-source projects). It's better to just not decompile any non-GNU type program. That includes games, drivers, graphics programs, anything that is not open-source or your own creation that you programmed yourself. Another thing to note is that EULA's often state of only installing and using one copy on one computer - not using the same copy on multiple computers (unless the license agreement says so or you bought a multi-license version).
Well... disassemblying a prog - how do you juridically define it? It's almost like you've given a source code and you may not read it.

VirtualAce
05-15-2007, 11:43 AM
Some of you are mixing the idea of mods for games with hacks. They are 2 different beasties and most mods are created with the permission of the company and/or with the tools they provided for such a task.

novacain
05-15-2007, 10:03 PM
>>Well... disassemblying a prog - how do you juridically define it? It's almost like you've given a source code and you may not read it.<<

Try and justify it any way you want, you know it is wrong. When you grow up you will stop.

You can reverse engineer data formats as you OWN the data. You can not reverse engineer the app that created the data as you only have a LICENCE to use it.

Remember that each game you 'steal' costs programmer jobs (by reducing the number of games that get developed because they are less profitable than they should be).

Also you are indirectly responsible for DRM monstrosities like StarForce and First4Internets root-kit DRM used by SONY. If you did not streal these technologies would not be required.


On Topic;

Griefers and hackers stopped me playing CS Source and to some extent BF2 (and the fact my twitch response is now to slow to beat the wippersnappers...).

WoW (trial) and Lord of the Rings Online (beta) bored me. Too many kill X of these, talk to NPC (30 mins away) quests. Prefered instanced games where others can not leech off your efforts.

I play DDO with a few RL friends based around the world. Instanced quests, inbuilt voice, good graphics and free expansions (roughly) each month keep me paying.

MacGyver
05-15-2007, 10:38 PM
As I mentioned a few times before, I'm a part of an anticheating organization for a game. I've written software (not really anything important) to assist in this, but it's pretty much an endless fight, as is every type of rule/law enforcement. There are always people in life that think they can get away with something, and gaming is no exception. That's why we have a close-to zero tolerance policy. We ban your once when you get caught. If you come back, we ban you yet again. We don't care if you've reformed. Make a mistake, and live with it, just not on our servers.

I can't stand the excuse from the cheat writers that they write, release, and use cheats to simply learn about the game engine. I love learning, too, but I don't abuse my knowledge at others' expense. I've written simple mods in the past, and that's how you're supposed to learn, have fun with coding, and assist the gaming communities that you are a part of.

EULA's are usually written pretty badly, though, anyway. One Microsoft EULA years ago came across to me as saying that a specific action was permitted, while a few lines later it appeared to be prohibiting the same action. Same with the idea of modding in some EULA's. The game companies put out tools to assist in making mods and sometimes expressly encourage it, but they do restrict your right to use the game software and the act of "reverse engineering" it. The spirit of the restrictions are what matters I guess.

America's Army is a game I ran away from. The devs released an update that supposedly worked against cheats, but in reality was an update to block mods. I read a forum where one of the devs was complaining against Punkbuster. What was the one dev's criticism? That admins were able to run their own custom checks to block out his cheat scripts. He claimed that since the scripts wouldn't work anyway in multiplayer in those settings, he shouldn't be kicked for having the script. Was kind of sad and frustrating to watch someone else point out that the devs had previously forgotten ( ;) ) to disable those cheat scripts in a previous update. There were other things that made this game community just seem horrible.

Anyway, enough random ramblings.... ;)

Hymn
05-15-2007, 11:27 PM
I recently have been playing GunZ: The Duel, quite possibly the worst game to ever plague the internet. Terrible graphics, limited content, pay to play items... I've spent over three thousand hours on this stupid game. Why? Friends, some of which inspired me to learn C, which brought me to these forums and this site(<3 Dexgod). Glitch game play is addictive, and GunZ has some of the worst/best glitch play I've ever seen. Small oversights in the code which allowed certain commands to cancel out animations, allow for otherwise insane combinations of moves, which the community calls K-Style (Korean Style, because the game originally came from Korea).

I feel like I'm advertising.

Outside of that, I've played all of Blizzard's games at one time or another, and I probably spent the most time in WoW.

zacs7
05-16-2007, 05:02 AM
Cheating is also a bit like terrorism, It runs on fear. Now you get accused of cheating without doing so :)

Maybe it's just me cause I'm pr0 ? ;)

maxorator
05-16-2007, 02:22 PM
Remember that each game you 'steal' costs programmer jobs (by reducing the number of games that get developed because they are less profitable than they should be).
Disassembling a game won't decrease it's sales... (who would publish their reverse engineered stuff anyway?).

Some of you are mixing the idea of mods for games with hacks. They are 2 different beasties and most mods are created with the permission of the company and/or with the tools they provided for such a task.
Some games have a built-in plugin system which makes modding totally legal and ethical. For example GTA Vice City.

This is not a thread about the EULA, how to get around it, or how to hack. If it does degrade into that or a discussion of how to hack or how to steal games then it will violate the forum rules and guidelines and it will be closed.
No how-s have been mentioned.

Cheating is also a bit like terrorism, It runs on fear. Now you get accused of cheating without doing so :)

Maybe it's just me cause I'm pr0 ? ;)
There is nothing more lame than cheating.

There are always people in life that think they can get away with something, and gaming is no exception. That's why we have a close-to zero tolerance policy. We ban your once when you get caught. If you come back, we ban you yet again. We don't care if you've reformed. Make a mistake, and live with it, just not on our servers.
I can't think of a worse policy. I play in servers where there is only one rule - abusing other players will be a kick. Bans... I've seen only few of them (with quick unbans though). Most of the experienced players are on those servers. I call such servers fun-oriented. How many bans really come from abusing other players? I think most of the bans are just for being "caught". The three golden words are "We Don't Care".

I can't stand the excuse from the cheat writers that they write, release, and use cheats to simply learn about the game engine. I love learning, too, but I don't abuse my knowledge at others' expense. I've written simple mods in the past, and that's how you're supposed to learn, have fun with coding, and assist the gaming communities that you are a part of.
A little irony: Well, I'm a mod writer, that means I'm evil. A little detail though - the mod that I write is a multiplayer mod for a singleplayer game.
There is only one difference between a good and a bad modders - good ones don't publish their evil stuff.

The game companies put out tools to assist in making mods and sometimes expressly encourage it, but they do restrict your right to use the game software and the act of "reverse engineering" it. The spirit of the restrictions are what matters I guess.
Indeed.

Also you are indirectly responsible for DRM monstrosities like StarForce and First4Internets root-kit DRM used by SONY. If you did not streal these technologies would not be required.
I'm glad if I helped to create such pieces of art.

Try and justify it any way you want, you know it is wrong. When you grow up you will stop.
It is not wrong when it's not done with good intentions.

Disassembling is the only way to know what stuff I am actually installing. What if malware would have EULAs. :o

Disassemblers are my favourite games. :)

zacs7
05-16-2007, 03:57 PM
Eh? I know I don't cheat. But I do get accused of doing so :( Which has led to unjustified bans...

ulillillia
05-16-2007, 04:15 PM
When I play games, I play them normally at first. I then try coming up with my own challenges and once I run out, I use cheats from things like Gameshark and Action Replay to make some things more difficult giving myself more self-made challenges which keeps me at games for a long time. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is practically perfect. Once I started that game in 2002, I've come up with so many challenges and yet, I'm still coming up with my own challenges. The "low gravity" cheat in Super Mario Sunshine makes making some jumps more difficult and it becomes surprisingly easy to get into odd or unusual places causing a sudden loss of a life. Sure it makes some things easier, but it makes others harder and that's what matters. I practically never use cheats to get help finishing games - practically all games are too easy. Blaster Master, for the NES, is about at my skill. I mainly use cheats to attempt to make the game harder than it really is, or, in the case of this amazing game stunt (http://www.ulillillia.us/files/SMB2BeadScreenSuperHigh.zip) in Super Monkey Ball 2 where I get shot up at 2400 mph and try to make the goal), to get the full experience of something not possible otherwise.

And how can cheats get you banned? Banned from what?

MacGyver
05-16-2007, 04:38 PM
I can't think of a worse policy. I play in servers where there is only one rule - abusing other players will be a kick. Bans... I've seen only few of them (with quick unbans though). Most of the experienced players are on those servers. I call such servers fun-oriented. How many bans really come from abusing other players? I think most of the bans are just for being "caught". The three golden words are "We Don't Care".

LOL. You say, "There is nothing more lame than cheating." and then you turn around and say zero tolerance policies are the worst policies.

I wonder why. :rolleyes:

Oh could it be because you're a member of http://www.rootkit.com/, and you're actively trying to build the features of a rootkit called Hacker Defender into your current program(s)?

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-QD-uZ1wewcJ:https://www.rootkit.com/board.php&#37;3Fdid%3Dproj5%26closed%3D0%26lastx%3D15&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7


Would it be difficult? I want to build Hacker Defender into my program, not to use it externally, but I like to program in C. I am not very familiar with Delphi. At least trying to write it into C is good for something - I learn Delphi this way. :)

Also is it somehow possible to detect the folder in the driver so it would hide only some specific files? Let's say the folder is the HDD root (so there is no way someone could notice they can't delete a folder).

I don't know where's the best place to start with learning about drivers and NT kernel stuff. If I could get the source code of Hacker Defender into C, then I'd possibly have everything I need. Also I think I should read some good driver development tutorials (like codeproject's) and try to load them dynamically as shown in FUTo.

I've been reading a lot of stuff about what rootkits do, what do they mean to the end-users, about botnets and stuff in general. I don't think there are good tutorials which directly show how to write a rootkit, but I would appreciate any information that could get me closer to the "real stuff".

I don't want just to use Hacker Defender. There wouldn't be much to be proud about then. I want to understand it, modify it and learn to find ways to subvert NT kernel. Which reminds me... is hoglund's book good for such a novice as me?

I've been doing web development for about 3 years, C and C++ for about 2 years and some other languages. I am quite familiar with Assembly, but I'm not very good at reverse engineering yet. That's what I want to learn more about, too.

I'm hungry for knowledge...

And yes, I'm sure this is you. ;)

http://www.rootkit.com/user.php?name=maxorator

And looking down that topic, apparently someone found a usage for Hacker Defender:


I was using the rootkit for hiding my hacks from the anty-cheat progy that I need to use for playing one game. And it was working perfect till one day after the anty-cheat was uptaded. Like many times before, but this one was different... It detected the hacks after hiding them with the rootkit!
I need advice. What i must do, change the rootkit, am I doing something wrong (I allways read the "readme" untill I understand the stuff i need).

If cheating at a multiplayer game and attempting to benefit at others' expense is not "abusing" them, then I don't know what is. You or anyone else can pretend to be a 1337 haxor all day over on those forums, but we don't tolerate messing around on our members' servers. We're just sick of it.

You guys that think anticheating is just banning people you don't like need to check out organizations like http://www.punksbusted.com/. It's simply an organization of server admins that use Punkbuster software. Their memebers servers stream PB data from the servers to a central repository. If someone is caught on one server, their ban is spread throughout the entire system, and every server that is a part of the system can be made aware of it usually within 24 to 48 hours. THAT is effective.

Organizations like mine work on a smaller area a little more ahead of the groups like that. Our goal is to work towards catching private cheats, as well as tracking down supposed new players that are actually cheaters that simply have come back into the game by stealing, buying, or otherwise obtaining a new CD-Key.


A little irony: Well, I'm a mod writer, that means I'm evil. A little detail though - the mod that I write is a multiplayer mod for a singleplayer game.
There is only one difference between a good and a bad modders - good ones don't publish their evil stuff.

Incorrect. I'm a modder, and I'm not evil by any means. Your assumption that good modders have evil stuff is kind of amusing.


And how can cheats get you banned? Banned from what?

We ban for multiplayer cheats on multiplayer servers. The ban is from our members' servers.

zacs7
05-16-2007, 10:18 PM
ulillillia pfft you go on about licencing and how your not allowed to decompile games, yet you cheat yourself!

Using modding you can also cheat in CloseCombat :), change your weapon stats and they work online/LAN :D

maxorator
05-16-2007, 10:57 PM
If I would've wanted to make a rootkit and publish it, I would've just used Hacker Defender, because it's near to perfect. That was for learning purposes.

Incorrect. I'm a modder, and I'm not evil by any means. Your assumption that good modders have evil stuff is kind of amusing.
Well, they might have "evil" stuff and they might not have. But if they do have them and they don't publish them, then there's 2 possible options: 1) it's for learning purposes, 2) they're greedy. I'll pick the first one.

I like anticheating organizations (in fact I need to develop such things in the multiplayer mod too), I just don't like zero tolerance policy.

I would recommend "two tolerance policy" - a warning, then kick and ban. Also bans should last maybe for 2 weeks, depending on the "crime". Who would continue cheating when he knows he's near to a ban? In some games cheating can only used for bad purposes (like killing others), but in games where there are cars people just like to stunt with them.

VirtualAce
05-16-2007, 11:04 PM
If you cheat in Joint Ops and are caught it results in a permanent ban. But several people have been banned and go out and buy another copy just to get another CD key and play and cheat again.

What a waste of money. Play fair it's cheaper.

BTW the italicized text about this thread was posted by me, not Salem.

Anytime cheating is used in a normal online game whether it be for experiments or for stunting cars, it's not fair to the other players.

maxorator
05-16-2007, 11:20 PM
If you cheat in Joint Ops and are caught it results in a permanent ban. But several people have been banned and go out and buy another copy just to get another CD key and play and cheat again.

What a waste of money. Play fair it's cheaper.

BTW the italicized text about this thread was posted by me, not Salem.

Anytime cheating is used in a normal online game whether it be for experiments or for stunting cars, it's not fair to the other players.
We're talking about different kind of games. There are no CD-keys in games which I play. There are only IP bans. The only option to get rid of the ban would be to change your ISP.

I remember one server banning something 63.*.*.* (maybe not correct), which banned alot of the players at once, where only one was a cheater.

In FPS games cheating means only one thing - abusing. But FPS isn't the only type of game.

MacGyver
05-16-2007, 11:25 PM
If I would've wanted to make a rootkit and publish it, I would've just used Hacker Defender, because it's near to perfect. That was for learning purposes.

Well, they might have "evil" stuff and they might not have. But if they do have them and they don't publish them, then there's 2 possible options: 1) it's for learning purposes, 2) they're greedy. I'll pick the first one.

Just for "learning". LOL. The "learning" excuse is kind of lame.

There are reasons for rootkits, although those reasons are almost never productive. Rootkits themselves are usually used on the wrong side of the fence because they are well suited as weapons, or as shields to protect other weapons.

I would hope that this discussion encourages anybody thinking of doing anything unethical to think again. There are reasons why we have rules, laws, and yes, even a conscience.


I like anticheating organizations (in fact I need to develop such things in the multiplayer mod too), I just don't like zero tolerance policy.

Nobody in my circles would trust you, since we're quite paranoid about this kind of thing. ;)

But if you feel like it, let me know if you do decide to do anything related to anticheating.


I would recommend "two tolerance policy" - a warning, then kick and ban. Also bans should last maybe for 2 weeks, depending on the "crime". Who would continue cheating when he knows he's near to a ban? In some games cheating can only used for bad purposes (like killing others), but in games where there are cars people just like to stunt with them.

Ah, you've discovered the reason for the zero tolerance policy. It's freaks all the dumb idiots that would try to cheat but are scared of getting banned from many servers and shunned by their community. That's the whole point. It's the same reason why I support capital punishment for crimes like murder. Besides actually serving justice, a punishment needs to act as a deterrent to other would-be criminals.

But to answer your question, we have people in our community that have cheated and been caught at least 10 separate times with different CD-Keys, if I remember correctly. A two or three strike policy wouldn't phase these people anymore than what we're doing because they're hardcore addicted to cheating. They just can't stand playing legit no matter what.

indigo0086
05-17-2007, 05:06 AM
I recently been playing Half-Life 2 since I now have a good video card and it looks awesome. It would have been great if it had all the effects that Lost Coast does. Speaking of lost coast, budding game devs should check it out, it has "commentary" in the form of little speech bubbles around the map and when you use them the commentator talks about that portion of the game, sometimes they show the scene rendered different ways and sometime disconnects the player from the action and moves the camera around. It's really awesome and if you have a good video card you can see all the great effects in the game.

zacs7
05-17-2007, 06:03 AM
This topic is getting rather roudy :)

That "commentary" has been done before, in Brothers in Arms and other games...

maxorator
05-17-2007, 09:06 AM
There are reasons for rootkits, although those reasons are almost never productive. Rootkits themselves are usually used on the wrong side of the fence because they are well suited as weapons, or as shields to protect other weapons.
My reason was to discover NT kernel this way. You want to know how "the story ended"? Well, I got enough clear overview of the NT kernel without making any program.

Nobody in my circles would trust you, since we're quite paranoid about this kind of thing.
But of course. I can say the same thing about you.

But to answer your question, we have people in our community that have cheated and been caught at least 10 separate times with different CD-Keys, if I remember correctly. A two or three strike policy wouldn't phase these people anymore than what we're doing because they're hardcore addicted to cheating. They just can't stand playing legit no matter what.
That's one type of people. But there are other people too - who just want to test stuff. When they see a link to a mod or something like that they just download it and test it and see what it can do. There may be more of those idiots you mentioned but these ones exist too. I'm from a little country, but I don't think the country should be wiped off the world because it's little and not very important.

The "two" tolerance policy is a test which shows which type of cheater you are dealing with. When it's just a guy who wanted to test the cheat, he would stop cheating when told so and answer something like "OK, sorry". But if you are dealing with an idiot or an abuser, then he: a) may try to cheat secretly and a little (I hope admins have a spectator mode to check if someone is doing it), b) he continues.

Continue with private messages if you have anything to say. :)

ON TOPIC:
Most games get annoying to me in a week or so. There are few games which don't get boring. Rally games I like: Trackmania Nations. Strategy: OpenTTD. FPS/similar: GTA Vice City.

Sorry for messing up the thread with such silly discussions. :(

ulillillia
05-17-2007, 10:59 AM
ulillillia pfft you go on about licencing and how your not allowed to decompile games, yet you cheat yourself!

Using modding you can also cheat in CloseCombat :), change your weapon stats and they work online/LAN :D

These are console games I'm referring to like Sonic 3 & Knuckles (using debug mode for example). As far as I know, console games, short of using multiple controllers, aren't much multiplayer. I've never played an online game outside 4 games of basic chess (of which I lost all 4 games because I'm bad at it) and 2 games of checkers (I won one, lost the other). I play single-player more than 99.999% of the time and console games.

For Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I've finished the game without any cheats and found the game practically unchallenging. Needing more challenge, I came up with my own self-made challenges, but even then they started running out. I looked up various cheat codes to see if I can enhance the game and found level select and debug. Once I got debug, I've been at the game for much longer and even after 1500 hours of total game play, the second most of all, I'm still at the game always using debug, but rarely doing much in the way of playing through the levels. I now very rarely see bosses because I'm messing around attempting to accomplish my self-made challenges.

nvoigt
05-17-2007, 12:04 PM
But there are other people too - who just want to test stuff. When they see a link to a mod or something like that they just download it and test it and see what it can do.


See, that's why I'm interested in servers with a total sub-zero tolerance for cheaters. I'm playing a game with 64 other people, if everyone would "test" something only once every two months, I'd be playing with a cheater every day. In private, on your very own server, you can test and experiement as long as you like. If you come to a server I visit, I seriously hope we have a trigger happy server patrol who's banning peoples asses faster than anyone could say hack.

MacGyver
05-17-2007, 12:14 PM
My reason was to discover NT kernel this way. You want to know how "the story ended"? Well, I got enough clear overview of the NT kernel without making any program.

LOL. Must have been some high view.


But of course. I can say the same thing about you.

Yeah I suppose you could, but your "uber 1337 h4x0r circles" don't mean crap to me, and I don't feel the need to want to work with groups like that. ;)


That's one type of people. But there are other people too - who just want to test stuff. When they see a link to a mod or something like that they just download it and test it and see what it can do. There may be more of those idiots you mentioned but these ones exist too. I'm from a little country, but I don't think the country should be wiped off the world because it's little and not very important.

I'm not sure how we got into the subject of whether or not your country should be wiped out, and I think it's a stupid analogy that has no bearing on the subject at hand.

Our community has the express notice plastered all over the place that testing cheats is not allowed. We're a small enough group that generally everyone knows what happens if you get caught. There is no reason to test cheats. We don't care if you're curious. If you want to cheat, use the singleplayer console commands that many game companies provide in their games for you to test stuff. Want to learn? Get into modding.


The "two" tolerance policy is a test which shows which type of cheater you are dealing with. When it's just a guy who wanted to test the cheat, he would stop cheating when told so and answer something like "OK, sorry". But if you are dealing with an idiot or an abuser, then he: a) may try to cheat secretly and a little (I hope admins have a spectator mode to check if someone is doing it), b) he continues.

LOL. What cheater says "OK. sorry" and never hacks again? You've either been on the wrong side of this battle, or you just have not had experiences with anticheating. I have in my experience seen the proverb, "Once a cheater always a cheater", or perhaps the Biblical proverb of, "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." fulfilled more times than you would like to think. ;)


Continue with private messages if you have anything to say. :)

BTW, I posted this topic in a small little set of forums of mine, and showed some people on IRC. Out of the very few that have commented, no one has shared your view. One person even referred to you as "the cheater maxorator". ;)

Govtcheez
05-17-2007, 12:32 PM
BTW, I posted this topic in a small little set of forums of mine, and showed some people on IRC. Out of the very few that have commented, no one has shared your view. One person even referred to you as "the cheater maxorator".*pushes up glasses*
*snort*
The guys on IRC are gonna eat this stuff up hehehehehe

MacGyver
05-17-2007, 12:51 PM
*pushes up glasses*
*snort*
The guys on IRC are gonna eat this stuff up hehehehehe

lol.

;)

maxorator
05-17-2007, 12:51 PM
LOL. What cheater says "OK. sorry" and never hacks again? You've either been on the wrong side of this battle, or you just have not had experiences with anticheating.
Probably I've been surrounded with too good people.

Yeah I suppose you could, but your "uber 1337 h4x0r circles" don't mean crap to me, and I don't feel the need to want to work with groups like that.
I could just give names to your "circles" too, but my intent is not to offend you.

I have in my experience seen the proverb, "Once a cheater always a cheater", or perhaps the Biblical proverb of, "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." fulfilled more times than you would like to think.
Hmm, you would slaughter all prisoners? I can freely say this point of view is wrong. I've heard this sentence ("Once a cheater always a cheater") before. Doesn't this sentence seem funny to you? I mean there's 0&#37; of truth.

If I don't share your point of view it doesn't mean I'm a "uber 1337 h4x0r" and it doesn't mean I like cheating. But I've tested some stuff on servers (because single player mode is totally different and multiplayer doesn't support actors). I don't think I would cheat publicly in a game where I have other options. Many of that stuff I found and tested will reach the multiplayer mod as server configuration.


See, that's why I'm interested in servers with a total sub-zero tolerance for cheaters. I'm playing a game with 64 other people, if everyone would "test" something only once every two months, I'd be playing with a cheater every day. In private, on your very own server, you can test and experiement as long as you like. If you come to a server I visit, I seriously hope we have a trigger happy server patrol who's banning peoples asses faster than anyone could say hack.
I mean if testers are caught they should be given one chance to stop it, not just an instant ban. But if they don't listen the first warning, then ban is fair enough.

Maybe I didn't phrase my ideas well enough before, but as MacGyver says: "I have to live with the mistake". Most of the disagreements and arguings come from misunderstanding.

Govtcheez
05-17-2007, 01:00 PM
Can this abortion of a thread be closed?

maxorator
05-17-2007, 01:08 PM
I think so.

MacGyver
05-17-2007, 01:34 PM
Probably I've been surrounded with too good people.

People that look into writing software that is used to subvert other systems are good?


I could just give names to your "circles" too, but my intent is not to offend you.

We don't perform illegal activities, but you're welcome to attempt to paint us with the same brush.


Hmm, you would slaughter all prisoners? I can freely say this point of view is wrong. I've heard this sentence ("Once a cheater always a cheater") before. Doesn't this sentence seem funny to you? I mean there's 0&#37; of truth.

It's not funny because I've seen it in action time and time again over the years I've spent gaming.


If I don't share your point of view it doesn't mean I'm a "uber 1337 h4x0r" and it doesn't mean I like cheating. But I've tested some stuff on servers (because single player mode is totally different and multiplayer doesn't support actors). I don't think I would cheat publicly in a game where I have other options. Many of that stuff I found and tested will reach the multiplayer mod as server configuration.

Hate to break it to you, but "testing" in a live setting is cheating. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.

If you hang out with people that are shady and are friends with them, then what makes you any better?


I mean if testers are caught they should be given one chance to stop it, not just an instant ban. But if they don't listen the first warning, then ban is fair enough.

The rule on most servers is a cheat-once-banned-for-life policy. If you don't like it, don't cheat. We don't care if you agree with us or not.


Maybe I didn't phrase my ideas well enough before, but as MacGyver says: "I have to live with the mistake". Most of the disagreements and arguings come from misunderstanding.

There is no misunderstanding. We don't care if someone makes a "mistake". As you quoted, those that make those "mistakes" must have to live with them by staying off of our members' servers. Arguments like yours will be met by deaf ears and you will be flamed if you appeal a ban with this reasoning.


Can this abortion of a thread be closed?

Reverting to your days as a mod, huh? If you give Alex a call, tell him I said hi. :D


I think so.

:rolleyes:

Govtcheez
05-17-2007, 01:37 PM
> Reverting to your days as a mod, huh? If you give Alex a call, tell him I said hi.

Ooooh, ice burn.

You don't have to be a mod to see that this thread has devolved into uninteresting sniping at each other. If you want to continue calling maxorator a cheater and talk about what your badass IRC buddies thought of him, take it to PMs. No one else really cares.

laserlight
05-17-2007, 01:51 PM
You don't have to be a mod to see that this thread has devolved into uninteresting sniping at each other. If you want to continue calling maxorator a cheater and talk about what your badass IRC buddies thought of him, take it to PMs. No one else really cares.
Agreed. I am closing this thread with apologies to drallstars.