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maxorator
04-26-2007, 02:40 PM
First of all, good to see you again. I haven't been here for quite a while.

The baaad news is that Russians are destroying everything in Estonia's capital Tallinn. They are burning houses, cars, destroying everything, making fires on the streets etc.
It all started because Estonian government decided to move a Soviet Union monument to another place. It was just decided to move to another place, not to destroy it nor anything.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6597497.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6255051.stm
One paragraph:

Russia, which does not agree that the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, has suggested that it is symptomatic of a rebirth of fascism in Estonia.

I'll give you a short summary of Estonian history:
Estonia was under Soviet occupation from 1939-1991. It was taken under Soviet control by invading it with hundreds of tanks and hundred thousands of soldiers. Many Estonians were killed.
In 1941 and in 1945 they deported 1/20 of Estonians to Siberia, 3/4 of Estonians had their close relatives deported, 2/3 of the deported people died there...

I just wanted people to know about it, because Russia has been denying everything and they've been good at it, because they have power.

THIS IS SICK!

Queatrix
04-26-2007, 02:53 PM
Sorry.

I guess that is the kind of thing that makes Americans still pretty good.

Good to hear from you again though.

jmd15
04-26-2007, 05:43 PM
The Soviet Union monuments should be destroyed..

whiteflags
04-26-2007, 07:08 PM
Based on what? The fact that history occurred? Yeah I suppose we can pretend it didn't happen.

indigo0086
04-26-2007, 07:24 PM
They can put up a sign, "Soviet monument rubble lies here".

I'm sure everyone can remember history without the berlin wall, Concentration Camps, MacDonalds, etc.

jmd15
04-26-2007, 07:28 PM
Who said anything about forgetting history?
But tell me, why should we glorify a Communistic society?

indigo0086
04-26-2007, 08:06 PM
Who said anything about forgetting history?
But tell me, why should we glorify a Communistic society?

*points up*

whiteflags
04-26-2007, 08:15 PM
that works.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 02:45 AM
Few houses burned down, because there weren't many wooden houses. Tens of shops were destroyed and emptied (all alcohol was stolen there), kiosks were destroyed, cars had serious damages, all windows were broken, everything was a mess. Many of them got drunk and ended up killing eachother.

Govtcheez
04-27-2007, 05:06 AM
Who said anything about forgetting history?
But tell me, why should we glorify a Communistic society?
Why should we glorify ancient Greek or Egyptian societies?

KONI
04-27-2007, 05:13 AM
Why should we glorify ancient Greek or Egyptian societies?

madness ? this is SPARTA !

MacGyver
04-27-2007, 05:15 AM
Why should we glorify ancient Greek or Egyptian societies?

The Soviet Union was a repressive regime that treated their people horribly, among other faults.

Are you willing to pass the same judgment on the ancient Greeks and Egyptians? If so, then I would have to answer, "we shouldn't" to your question. If not.... :)

maxorator
04-27-2007, 06:35 AM
Government has instructed people to stay at home...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj0Yaqb8-MY#UhQORsnTek8
Would you like to live in the same country with them?

nvoigt
04-27-2007, 06:51 AM
Why should we glorify ancient Greek or Egyptian societies?

Basically, we just don't. I've been in Tunesia and I have not seen any glorifications of the Roman Empire, that razed their former capitol of Carthage a few millenia ago.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 07:18 AM
I can't say I hate Russians - most of them are nice people. Many Russians just believe what Russian government says. For example Russian government called Estonia fascists, now Russians blame us of being fascists. They're not used to think. They just live there and do what the government (dictators) says. Many of the rioting Russians just used the opportunity to steal and destroy - they didn't care about anything else. They just thought that Russia has 'allowed them to do so'.

JaWiB
04-27-2007, 10:02 AM
Why should we glorify ancient Greek or Egyptian societies?

Without the Greeks we might not have democracy today. In fact, Greek thought was basically the foundation of western civilization. Heard of Socrates? Plato? Aristotle?

I think there's a pretty good reason we glorify the Greeks...I don't know about the Egyptians though

maxorator
04-27-2007, 10:06 AM
This is what it looked like after cleaning the streets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBw09RMakrE

Russians are gathering on the streets again. We can never know what they will do... Estonian embassador in Russia was taken hostage for half an hour. Russians in Russia are planning to come to Estonia to take part in riot. Estonian embassy then decided not to give out any visas.

Russian gangs are moving towards Toompea - the place where the president lives. Many of those Russians are drunk.

Govtcheez
04-27-2007, 10:19 AM
Basically, we just don't. I've been in Tunesia and I have not seen any glorifications of the Roman Empire, that razed their former capitol of Carthage a few millenia ago.
Exactly. Leaving statues to stand isn't "glorifying" them

maxorator
04-27-2007, 10:39 AM
Some Russians are hiring other Russians to riot. Police cannot control the situation, because there aren't many of them.

That Soviet Union statue was in the center of Tallinn in front of the National Library. It was moved to a cemetary.

Queatrix
04-27-2007, 10:53 AM
Exactly. Leaving statues to stand isn't "glorifying" them
I would have to disagree with you. Statues are used to represent somthing good about the person in figure.
Like this one in Estonia. And now that they don't share the same opinion, Russia isn't the happiest, they probably feel as if though they where ruddly mocked.

indigo0086
04-27-2007, 10:55 AM
V for Vendetta movie people! The act of destroying the statue is a symbol in an of itself.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 11:00 AM
I would understand if it was destroyed. But no, it was moved to another place (to a cemetary not very far from it's previous location). We would never think of destroying it.

At the moment they destroyed some more shops. They are attacking Estonians with knives. They attacked paramedics and the fire brigade.

CHAOS.

The monument thing was first discussed after the 9th May 2006 (their indepence day) when drunk Russians caused quite a chaos there, though noone had ever mentioned anything about the monument. Then people started thinking what does a Soviet Union monument do in the center of Tallinn in front of the National Library. The problem with that monument is that with that war they occupied Estonia. Russians don't know how it is to be occupied... I think there's nothing wrong with moving the monument to a cemetary.

Govtcheez
04-27-2007, 11:04 AM
I would have to disagree with you. Statues are used to represent somthing good about the person in figure.They're also used to represent history. If the Estonians want to pull them down, it's certainly their right, but saying they're glorifying Communism is silly. It's not a crime to remember history.

Queatrix
04-27-2007, 11:07 AM
Where are you right now maxorator?

indigo0086
04-27-2007, 11:08 AM
found this article
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/27/soviet.statue.reut/index.html

at least from what you and the article say, Russia is reminded of it's losses in WWII, which despite being soviets I'm sure they were in the same boat as many of the people in the campaign (Allies and Axis alike) who were drafted into the war for whatever reason. Estonia seems to think of it not as just a reminder of soviet occupation but also of a reminder of the lives, which is why it wasn't destroyed (though with the way Russia is acting, who would have the guts). Estonia should just send it to russia where they can do whatever they like with it in their territory since they care for it so much.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 11:13 AM
I am about 15km from the actual riot.

We offered it to Russia but they aggressively rejected it. They told it must stay where it is - in the sight of all Estonians. Then government decided to move it to a decent cemetary...

It was just moved to a decent cemetary. For Estonians that "victory" meant occupation for 50 years, (after that in 1941 and 1945 they deported about 1/20 of all Estonians to Siberia, 3/4 of Estonians had some of their close relatives deported to Siberia, 2/3 of the deported people died in Siberia in the next 2-3 years). Even now Russia does not admit that they had occupied Estonia.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 11:19 AM
There are not much Estonians on the streets, because we are reasonable and let the police try to do everything what is necessary. The president, mobile operators, email providers, ministers and news portals are all telling everyone to stay at home and not to be so stupid as the Russians on the streets are.

indigo0086
04-27-2007, 11:19 AM
Trebuchet that mofo.

whiteflags
04-27-2007, 11:25 AM
>Even now Russia does not admit that they had occupied Estonia.
This is exactly the kind of reason that convinced me to say what I did before. I mean, the monuments themselves hold no significance to me personally, but max is talking about it like they're attempting to cover up ever doing something wrong.

Frankly, as mentioned, monuments don't glorify history, they preserve it. Wars are won in the minds of the people after all. I think that if you destroy a monument for the wrong reasons then it's no longer a symbol of triumph. And if America can make big moves in history and accept all the scorn and embarrassment, then I expect other countries to be mature enough to acknowledge their actions.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 11:27 AM
Frankly, as mentioned, monuments don't glorify history, they preserve it. Wars are won in the minds of the people after all. I think that if you destroy a monument for the wrong reasons then it's no longer a symbol of triumph. And if America can make big moves in history and accept all the scorn and embarrassment, then I expect other countries to be mature enough to acknowledge their actions.
It was not destroyed. It was moved to a decent cemetary not far from it's previous location... And as I said we also offered it to Russia but they aggressively rejected it.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 11:36 AM
At the moment they drew nazi symbols on 2 Estonian monuments, burned Estonian flags and they are still attacking Estonians. Riot police is doing their best.

Some comments from youtube (censored):

~~~~~~~~READ THIS~~~~~~~~ Estonia Killed Russian History , People who live in russia made this. That Statue was memory that we are free!!! **** ESTONIA!!!
They've always been free. They have never been occupied in the whole history of Russia. Why do they make up these stories?

divineleft
04-27-2007, 01:47 PM
this is terrible news, i really hope your family and yourself turn out alright.

maxorator
04-27-2007, 02:18 PM
I hope too...


I think I need to remind about the history. There was'nt such a country as Estonia before 1918! It was Lenin who decided to give the people living there their own country. Before that it was always a part of Russia. One can not talk about occupation of one's own territory! After the WWII the USSR made this country as a part of the Union without taking their independence off. They were a part of USSR as the Estonian Republic. What occupation you are all talking about???
We had a country in 13th century already. We've always been one separate nation - nothing even near to russians. And WTF are they talking about? "Without taking their indepence off" - hundred thousands of soldiers, many Estonians killed and then 100% controlled by Russia, what indepence can we talk about it here?


No wonder estonians felt that "soviet occupation" was worser then nazi's. they were allies of Hitler. Formed few SS divisions from estonians. Fought on Hitler side.
They keep comparing Estonia to nazis...

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&threadID=6233&start=0&tstart=0&&&&edition=2&ttl=20070427223800#paginator

They are now demolishing in other cities too... Now tens of schools, large department stores and much more is destroyed. Plus one Estonian monument was put on fire.

Luckily European Union supports us...

Decrypt
04-27-2007, 03:54 PM
Terrible news, indeed. You are in our thoughts, and I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say I wish you and your family the best. Please keep us updated, and yourself safe.

indigo0086
04-27-2007, 06:28 PM
Don't they have swat teams?

jmd15
04-27-2007, 06:59 PM
Can you own guns in Estonia?

Queatrix
04-27-2007, 08:58 PM
Estonia is enforcing a "gun control" policy, but they aren't banned yet.

maxorator
04-28-2007, 01:21 AM
In Estonia for using a gun a license is needed.

The Defence League also (a part of Estonian defence forces) also had to help, because there weren't enough riot policemen...

Now it has calmed down, almost a thousand people are arrested, about hundred injured. There were about 15 injured policemen, because they moved in large groups.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6598269.stm
That picture there is of the statue in its new location.

We don't hate the monument. It was moved for the safety of Estonians:

BBC has left out the most important of these events. The reason, why it was actually removed. Most Estonians would not mind noo much if theres some statue standing from Soviet times. But every year (more on past few years) the local Russians gather there, wave Soviet Union and Russian flags, shout how much they hate Estonia and Estonians. Also if somebody dared to show Estonian flag, the man was attacked. So you see why locals have learned to hate the statue as a place of anti-Estonian meetings.

This is what I expect from all Russians:

To be honest I do not care whether the monument is situated in downtown or anywhere else. On 9th of May I will go to the place the monument is situated and put flowers to the statues feet to show gratitude and respect to all those people who faught and died in the greates tragedy of the 20th century.

nvoigt
04-28-2007, 05:58 AM
Estonians [...] were allies of Hitler. Formed few SS divisions from estonians. Fought on Hitler side.


Yeah, sure. Just like Dutch, French, Danish, Czech and Norwegian SS divisions. All Hitler's allies. All on his side. Right ? Jeez, in '44 the Waffen-SS divisions would have taken a one-legged jewish communist from the Philipines if he'd volunteered. From an estonian perspective, the enemy of my enemy is my friend and that would probably have been the Nazis, but I don't think that Adolf himself would have considered anything east of Prussia worth being an "ally". He was a frothing madman, he had slaves, not allies.

KONI
04-28-2007, 06:27 AM
Luxembourg was never a great defensive force against the german invasion and even if our entire country was invaded in no less than a few hours, I would hate to hear from foreigners that Luxembourg was an ally to nazi-Germany. There is a difference between having no other choice but to contribute and voluntarily agree to help.

maxorator
04-28-2007, 08:07 AM
Actually they call us fascists only because we are moving their antifascism (communism monument for us) monument to a safer place for Estonians. Anticommunist means fascist for Russians. There's very little information about Estonians actually fighting on nazi side.

maxorator
04-28-2007, 02:12 PM
The situation in Tallinn is now under control. Instead they are now planning to burn some other cities with molotov coctails - molotov coctails are handed out by some russians.

maxorator
04-28-2007, 03:30 PM
EU, Poland, Latvia, Finland and Lithuania support us. That means noone else than Russia accuses Estonia of moving that monument to a cemetary, where it is not dangerous for the local Estonians.

Oldman47
04-28-2007, 09:56 PM
Lately, Putin seems to be about as Gung-ho as Bush. Personally, all I see in Putin is KGB and his polices seem to be all about suppressing any growth of democracy in Russia. Government opposition is silenced, free enterprises are seized and they (meaning Russia) recklessly supply high technology to dangeorus nations such as Iran and Korea. I think they do the later, just to cause the U.S. trouble, in spite of the potential danger that the policy may come back and bite them in the ass as well.

Latest article seems to imply the things have settled down with regards to the statue uproar, hopefully it'll stay that way for you, maxorator.

Dave_Sinkula
04-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Lately, Putin seems to be about as Gung-ho as Bush. Personally, all I see in Putin is KGB and his polices seem to be all about suppressing any growth of democracy in Russia.I see the first statement as about 175 degrees out of phase.

For the second, I enjoyed this (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=how_yeltsin_brought_down_the_ soviet_union&ns=CharlesKrauthammer&dt=04/27/2007&page=full&comments=true) recent related article.

maxorator
04-29-2007, 08:20 AM
Lately, Putin seems to be about as Gung-ho as Bush.
Bush isn't terrorizing little independent democratic countries. Bush is also not totally controlling the media, newspapers and court. Bush can't send anyone he wants behind the bars. Bush is not denying the history of USA.

I think I don't need to give you any more examples. Living in USA is totally fine. But when living in Russia you need to think as the dictator, do as the dictator says, never criticise the dictator etc. No civil rights.

Oldman47
04-29-2007, 04:11 PM
I meant that they're both stubborn, single-minded individuals. One is incapable of thinking outside the box and the other has no desire to.

As far as living in the U.S., being a U.S. Citizen, yea I have no major complaints as far as my personal liberty and rights go, but that doesn't preclude the fact that I'm not content with the present administration's handling of international affairs, war included.

It wasn't my intent to compare Russia to the U.S. For reasons you stated, their is no comparison.

maxorator
04-30-2007, 11:02 AM
I am not going to post it here. This is an article on my site:
http://maxx.5gigs.com/a/index.php?u=4