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Queatrix
04-01-2007, 03:35 PM
I just don't get, when I first started programming, I thought it would be neat to put some kind or virus on somones computer if I got the change once I new how, but now that I know plenty how, it's the last thing I want to do. I guess the only reason I wanted to in the begginging is becuase it was still new to me and I thought the concept was "cool". I just don't get why there are SO MANY virus makers, they are everywhere. Spyware I can understand, to a point, you know, where you gotta get in and get out without being noticed (still kind of a fun idea), but even then, it's risky and just plain wrong. And CA, McAffy, AVG, Norton, ect, are making a killing on the "infectious internet".

whiteflags
04-01-2007, 04:15 PM
> I just don't get [it]
You just stated the reason. Because you know more, you also know that most computers are quite secure, which brings us to the conclusion: being an awesome black-hat hacker is difficult. No surprise.

Queatrix
04-01-2007, 04:25 PM
Still, making a virus and infecting someone with it, is no benifit to the infector.
Only to the Anti-Virus companys. :D

whiteflags
04-01-2007, 04:43 PM
If all your source code, photos, and music were gone thanks to a virus I'd think that you'd feel pretty bad about it. If your ISP account was hacked and you helped spread some worm or something, you'd feel pretty bad then too. Not to mention you have a responsibility to protect your identity. Some people are just pricks and aren't after something valuable, like money. No, reputations and egos are at stake -- sometimes, committing the act feels good enough, I'm sure.

MacGyver
04-01-2007, 06:50 PM
The dark side of programming is always wrongly glorified, and their people are always protrayed as the smartest and brightest programmers the world has to offer. There is nothing wonderful about trying to cause massive damage to people's computers for absolutely no rational reason, and the smartest and brightest people will not be doing such things.

No matter what the type of "bad software" people make, whether it is anywhere from writing cheats for games to attempting to spread a world-wide worm that slows and takes down many computers, the basic problem is a lack of morality that many people have when it comes to programming and life in general. Just because it may feel "cool" to do something does not mean that it should be done. As with any knowledge, it should never be abused. For whatever reason, perhaps because the Internet seems so abstract, many people do not seem to realize the consequence of these decisions when they attempt to write and spread viruses.

Be thankful that you do not wish to participate in those same actions.

MadCow257
04-01-2007, 07:02 PM
Its in our nature. I can't tell you that I haven't thought about making some malicious software a couple of times, especially at school.

There are also alot of people that just don't care.
I'm suprised that there hasn't been a really bad virus.

Viruses used to be in the news in like 2005, has security gotten better?

Queatrix
04-01-2007, 10:58 PM
I wrote a key logger once that discuised it's self as a trusted program so it could get through firewalls, and it worked great too. However, I'm glad I never deployed it. And now I lost the code, it's still floating around some where in my archives though.

Morgul
04-02-2007, 01:15 PM
No matter what the type of "bad software" people make, whether it is anywhere from writing cheats for games to attempting to spread a world-wide worm that slows and takes down many computers, the basic problem is a lack of morality that many people have when it comes to programming and life in general.

"God is dead!"

The basic problem is a lack of regard for ethical behaviour. Morals are based on religion and I'm guessing you didn't mean to say that in the Bible (or other religious document or whatever depending upon one's religious views) that it states something along the lines of: "You Shall Not Write Viruses That Destroy The Computers Of Others".

Sentral
04-02-2007, 01:31 PM
Who cares why people do malicious things. Just know that it exists, and you can never stop or protect yourself against it fully.

Rashakil Fol
04-02-2007, 01:34 PM
"God is dead!"

The basic problem is a lack of regard for ethical behaviour. Morals are based on religion and I'm guessing you didn't mean to say that in the Bible (or other religious document or whatever depending upon one's religious views) that it states something along the lines of: "You Shall Not Write Viruses That Destroy The Computers Of Others".

No, 'moral' and 'ethical' are synonyms. I'm not a fan of arguing over definitions of things, but to make a distinction between morals and ethics is silly, and it's something philosophers just don't do. Your contention that morals are based on religion is in complete ignorance of reality. Just look at the world around you. Your belief that the Bible doesn't imply that writing viruses is immoral is also insane.

MacGyver
04-02-2007, 01:53 PM
No, 'moral' and 'ethical' are synonyms. I'm not a fan of arguing over definitions of things, but to make a distinction between morals and ethics is silly, and it's something philosophers just don't do. Your contention that morals are based on religion is in complete ignorance of reality. Just look at the world around you. Your belief that the Bible doesn't imply that writing viruses is immoral is also insane.

Agreed, albeit one could argue that if morality is defined by religion, then everyone does, in some form, have a religious persuasion.

But well said.

KONI
04-02-2007, 01:58 PM
No, 'moral' and 'ethical' are synonyms. I'm not a fan of arguing over definitions of things, but to make a distinction between morals and ethics is silly, and it's something philosophers just don't do. Your contention that morals are based on religion is in complete ignorance of reality. Just look at the world around you. Your belief that the Bible doesn't imply that writing viruses is immoral is also insane.

My girlfriend, who is currently writing her final diploma work for her Philosophy major, would strongly disagree. Philosophers make a HUGE fuzz about the difference between ethic and moral, which mean two different things.

And your idea that moral is based on religion is indeed silly, the perfect counter-example is Kant's Categorical Imperative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative), a well-known philosophical concept about moral.

Morgul
04-02-2007, 02:08 PM
I have always heard that here is a big difference between ethics and morals.

I was making a reference to Nietzsche, and in fact quoting him at the beginning there. I was then going on to make a joke based upon the idea that morals come from religion, I didn't realize that it was a point of contention where morals come from. I didn't say that the Bible doesn't infer that making viruses are wrong, I was saying (joking-ly) that it doesn't explicitly say it.

You completely missed what I was trying to say. Perhaps all jokes should be labeled with something along the lines of "[/sarcasm]" at the end or the like even if the author thinks that said joke was obvious. I'll try to remember to do that in the future, though I don't post often.

Or you were in a bad mood and wanted to pick an intellectual fight with someone but missed a key philosophical reference which had to do with my basis for saying that morals come from religion. Maybe.

MacGyver
04-02-2007, 02:37 PM
My girlfriend, who is currently writing her final diploma work for her Philosophy major, would strongly disagree. Philosophers make a HUGE fuzz about the difference between ethic and moral, which mean two different things.

I asked someone I personally know who studied philosophy and they said that philosophers generally treat ethics and morals as the same.

Rather interesting. I'll have to check the subject out again, but regardless, it is neither moral nor ethical to spread viruses to cause damage for no rational reason.

twomers
04-02-2007, 03:12 PM
>> I thought it would be neat to put some kind or virus on somones computer if I got the change

You're lucky precrime hasn't been invented yet :)

You're a bad person :(

Mad_guy
04-02-2007, 08:32 PM
Back when I was a big VX onlooker a couple years ago, I noticed something pretty quickly: most of the people who write those viruses don't do it for malicious purposes. If you look at some famed works by ones such as Z0MBiE, GriYo and the like (google it,) you'll notice a lot of their works are simply proof-of-concepts.
They're generally made to prove a point rather than screw you over, which is why many viruses distributed amongst the VX scenes these days also have source code many times, and in many cases cases, people write papers over their viruses (google "vx 29a".) The authors generally attach non-liability clauses to their released code (naturally,) and I can bet you in just about every case, the authors aren't the ones who release the virus anyway.

In plenty of cases, the people who write viruses and the like *aren't* the ones who distribute them. I'm not saying there aren't people who don't do this, but it's kind of a PITA for those who write and distribute such work (for generally nothing other than the spread of knowledge, think open-source) to be hit with such infamous blame.

Junior89
04-16-2007, 09:54 AM
Still, making a virus and infecting someone with it, is no benifit to the infector.
Only to the Anti-Virus companys. :D

Kinda makes you think don't it? When we get slammed by these new and improved internet worms that infect thousands of computers and then come the Anti-Virus companies to the rescue.... hmmmmmm ;)

cboard_member
04-16-2007, 10:31 AM
I must say I had a fascination with them when I started programming - I was young so it had nothing to do with the engineering side of things, I just wanted to mix it up :)

Now, though, it'd be interesting to see what I can do to my old dusty half-dead ('net disconnected) box if I manage to dig the bookmarks out of the gazillion I've got. I feel I have a firmer understand of assembly and my machine, so could make better use of the material.

Time to fiddle, perhaps. I'm on the verge of ditching my current game engine project anyhow.

Junior89
04-16-2007, 01:05 PM
I too have always found them fascinating. I've never wanted to use one on someone or my school or whatever =P

But to almost watch it, on a crappy old computer or something, watch it's life cycle as it lives, does what it is programmed to do, reproduces (maybe, depends on the virus), and with a little help from an anti-virus program, dies =P

I always thought, and still do think, they're very interesting programs.

brewbuck
04-16-2007, 02:16 PM
I always thought, and still do think, they're very interesting programs.

I've written (but never released, obviously) a few myself. You certainly get a good exposure to assembly language programming, machine architecture, and operating system internals by doing it. I even took a full-blown course on it back in school.

We had our own lab dedicated to testing their spread across the network. The lab was under a strict quarantine -- it had its own LAN, not connected to any real network. Your virus program came in on a floppy disk, you ran the tests, then the PC's drives were wiped and the floppy disk physically destroyed, to prevent any accidental spread.

If the good guys don't study viruses, then the only people who actually understand them will be the bad guys. And that would be bad.

Junior89
04-16-2007, 08:07 PM
Exactly!

The best way to understand something is to get inside it and know how it works, what it does, etc. Besides its perfectly legal to write even the most dangerous of viruses, so long as you don't employ it on any machine that you don't own or have permission on.

That course sounds so interesting, i'll have to see if the colleges i want to go to have somethin like that. I know Hopkins has a lab where they let computers sit, unprotected for years (and still do) and the amount of malware they got was incredible! If your interested visit www.jhu.edu and go to the engineering school homepage and read their magazine. Very interesting article ;)

biosninja
04-16-2007, 11:02 PM
Kinda makes you think don't it? When we get slammed by these new and improved internet worms that infect thousands of computers and then come the Anti-Virus companies to the rescue.... hmmmmmm


lol...my thoughts exactly!

who knows....maybe the AV companies write these malicious program to stay in business?

hehe....

Junior89
04-17-2007, 09:52 AM
or pay someone to ;)

Junior89
04-17-2007, 09:53 AM
Back when I was a big VX onlooker a couple years ago, I noticed something pretty quickly: most of the people who write those viruses don't do it for malicious purposes. If you look at some famed works by ones such as Z0MBiE, GriYo and the like (google it,) you'll notice a lot of their works are simply proof-of-concepts.
They're generally made to prove a point rather than screw you over, which is why many viruses distributed amongst the VX scenes these days also have source code many times, and in many cases cases, people write papers over their viruses (google "vx 29a".) The authors generally attach non-liability clauses to their released code (naturally,) and I can bet you in just about every case, the authors aren't the ones who release the virus anyway.

In plenty of cases, the people who write viruses and the like *aren't* the ones who distribute them. I'm not saying there aren't people who don't do this, but it's kind of a PITA for those who write and distribute such work (for generally nothing other than the spread of knowledge, think open-source) to be hit with such infamous blame.

And yes i agree completely, 29A and those VXers wrote some new and interesting programs with no harmful payloads. They are actually very Opposed to people who use the programs coupled with harmful payloads.