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View Full Version : i dont even know what hacking means anymore



BobMcGee123
12-30-2006, 12:56 PM
I've done plenty of tricky things to people in my day. Before I knew how to program, I downloaded that nasty program Sub7, sent the server file to my friends via ICQ and had lots of fun (like, fetishistic fun, made their printers print stuff, had fake message boxes pop up, took control of their mouse, inverted their screen, changed their wallpaper, etc).

Once I started to learn how to program I got the passwords from the computer teachers at school by writing a keylogger. I also managed to spy on my family by augmenting my key logger to also take screenshots every minute or so, and save it to a hidden location.

It was fun and all, but I never considered it hacking. But, everything I read nowadays, regardless of how complex a scheme it is, they are referred to as 'script kiddies' or 'not real hackers,' etc. I mean, I viewed a comment someone posted on a CNN news story about some guy that stole millions of dollars via his computer that said "wow, that guy is just a script kiddy, I bet he doesn't even know how to format his own hard drive." I don't know how hard it would be, realistically, to steal millions of dollars. Granted, the guy didnt get away with it either.

Please make pretty comments on my thread. I will heart you forever.

Tonto
12-30-2006, 02:05 PM
More adequacy.

http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.3.26.215.61646.html

Sentral
12-30-2006, 02:23 PM
Adequacy is t3h 53CK5! :D

My 16 year old definition: Cracking is any unauthorized entrance to a computer or program with malicious intent.

EDITED

dwks
12-30-2006, 02:38 PM
. . . "with malicious intent" sounds better. :)

Tonto
12-30-2006, 03:00 PM
>> Hacking (specifically cracking)

That ambiguity undermined your definition, and I think making that distinction is dumb. See: http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.3.26.215.61646.html

Sentral
12-30-2006, 03:10 PM
When I think of hacking, I think of cracking. Other people think hacking is nothing to do with cracking, but believe it to be ethical hacking (programmer). It depends on what you think I guess...

SlyMaelstrom
12-30-2006, 03:20 PM
Ethical hacking is a highly disputable term. Jeremy Hammond would consider himself an ethical hacker by hacking in attempt to absolve what he thinks is wrong, but his means of doing so was both harmful to others and the system as it dodges certain checks and balances. I try to avoid any phrase that contains such a relative term like "Ethical".

BobMcGee123
12-30-2006, 04:09 PM
Part of the reason I made this thread was that I knew you would not come up with a consistent answer, which makes me feel better about my own anxiety on the matter.

I'm just using you guys...be mean to me.

Where the hell is bubba? He didn't even comment on my hovertank program. Probably out impregnating his neighborhood, that stud.

Nodtveidt
12-30-2006, 04:15 PM
When you add "with malicious intent", it's no longer hacking...it then becomes cracking.

Sentral
12-30-2006, 04:18 PM
Christ....People have different views on it, there isn't a solid answer. Did you even read my edited post?

YOU SUCK, BOB!!! I'M A HACK j00 1337ORZ STYLEZ!!!!!

SlyMaelstrom
12-30-2006, 04:25 PM
Man, I hate... umm... uhh... hacking.

Jaqui
12-31-2006, 03:23 AM
Why not use the legal definition:
"Unauthorised access to computer equipment"

intent has no part of that definition.

the legal definition mean that you are guilty of hacking if you are sitting at someone elses computer using it, without asking them first.
[ which is silly, if it's your friend's place and they let you in, you can claim implied consent. ]

VirtualAce
12-31-2006, 04:08 AM
Where the hell is bubba? He didn't even comment on my hovertank program. Probably out impregnating his neighborhood, that stud.


LOL. I don't think my wife would appreciate that so no I'm not out impregnating the neighbors. :D

I do not feel that any form of hacking is legitimate and it is my opinion that justifiying it or trying to twist it to be good is why we now have spyware, malware, and other wares that add nothing to the field of computer science.

Hacking or any attempt to gain access to a program with malicious intent in my book is 100% unacceptable.

Hacking for the purpose of illegal copying
I have over 260 games in my collection (just got 10 more in the last year) and everyone of them is bought and paid for. All of my music is bought and paid for and all of my utlities are bought and paid for. The ONLY exception to this is my Visual Studio which was given to one of my relatives at a MSVS release expo where they gave away FREE copies of MSVS standard. His company does not use MSVS and has abandoned all MS dev products so he gave it to me.

No-cd cracks
This is one area of game cracking that I have mixed views on. It is very nice to be able to run a game without the CD being in the drive. However this type of practice also allows others who have not purchased the game to gain illegal access to it. No-cd cracks should be distributed by the dev company and only granted to those who have purchased the game. Could you monitor this? Not in a million years. This and other cracking devices have come full circle. Now older games are being cracked so we can play them and/or they are games we once owned. Since these games are no longer being sold and could never turn a profit the company should release them to the community as freeware. Some of the older games far surpass the crapola we see so often today.

Remote access to other systems
This is never acceptable unless you have permission to do so. This would most certainly fall under corporate espionage, credit card fraud, identity theft (not necessarily remote theft), etc.

Game hacking for the purpose of cheating
Never acceptable. This is the number one reason companies lose money on multiplayer games. Those who cheat make it suck for those who play legit and therefore most simply leave. Cheating in a game or running a third party program in a game for the purpose of cheating is considered by most game servers to be a bannable offense.
Novalogic finally got around to removing tons of cheaters from their servers and the world has been a better place there because of it.

Whether someone understands exactly how the program works that they use to hack with or if they even understand programming is irrelevant to the fact that they are attempting to gain access to a product with malicious intent. Script kiddy or not they are still in my book hackers. Are they programmers? No way.

mas0
12-31-2006, 05:51 AM
creating a keylogger doesnt make you a hacker... it makes you a coder
spying on people you know using a trojan doesnt make you a hacker... its just makes u a trojan user
coding a trojan (which i did) doesnt make me a hacker either... just a coder again.
using exploits to infiltrate machines... doesnt make you a hacker either...

a hacker to my beleif is someone who innovates by creating a "fix" to a problem either that be creating an exploit code, creating a patch, finding specific ways to do certain things.

e.g: coding a web downloader :- programmer
making the web downloader bypass firewalls by making it reside on or above the TCP stack :- hacker

using exploit code published on sites and making a worm :- script kiddie
softicing IIS and finding an overflow that can be used to take over the server and writing a POC for it... :- hacker

http://www.guninski.com/ :- hacker website
http://prorat.net/downloads.php :- script kiddy site

EDIT:
whether it be acceptable legal or otherwise it exists.most of the best coders around are hackers. the best network admins are hackers. hacking is the quest for knowledge. a hacker doesnt always infiltrate systems, they prove it possible. most hackers dont code viruses, they find the flaw that can make the virus viable. hackers dont cheat in games or pirate music. thats a cracker.

swgh
12-31-2006, 06:05 AM
Game hacking for the purpose of cheating

I sort of disagree bubba. As an avid game designer yourself, game developers MUST cheat
do test their products before they go onto the market. Take QA teams. They spend hours a day playing the same parts of a game for a living writting down anything that happens that shouldnt and passing it on to higher authoriites. If QA were not given cheats, they might get stuck themselves on a tricky part of the game! :)

But I do in theory agree with you on some aspects. Take the tony hawks skateboarding genre of games. Each game enables the player to enter a cheat code ( a hack ) to disable or enable a certain program feature. Why would the developers of the game make this possible if they originally intended for the game to be challenging in the first place? It boggles the mind.

As soon as new game is developed, I can garantee you there will be a cheat for it on the internet within a few hours. Some people sit at home faddling out cheats all day for the latest games. So, in retospect, can we call them hackers?

twomers
12-31-2006, 10:42 AM
>> I don't think my wife

You're married? Damn these preconceived conceptions of ye all that I've built up over the last year! Reality's so much more confusing!!


>> to my beleif [...]

Both misspelled and probably not all encompassing. Not saying I have a better definition, but what really differentiates a 'script kiddie' from a 'hacker', to your beleif? Your examples were vague. Don't they all spring from the same source?

What would you say Bob is more of, from the original post? 'Script kiddie' or 'cr/h acker'?

dac
12-31-2006, 11:08 AM
imo and with just skim reading the previous posts, cracking is breaking laws in terms of computing, whereas hacking is engineering type stuff, say fixing a program or whatever, wether it be breaking into a network to increase security etc.

i think the biggest problem is when the words start to get either mixed up or used in different scenarios that their meaning in a social context changes.

Nodtveidt
01-01-2007, 02:00 PM
The legal definition doesn't define it at the purest level. Keep in mind the vast number of laws and legal wordings that are either misguided or wholly incorrect. It's like looking at the dictionary for absolutism...most entries will be correct, but there will always be entries that are incorrect, making it not a 100% reliable source of information.

Mario F.
01-01-2007, 02:59 PM
There was a time when the distinction between hacking and cracking was not a problem at all. And then it happened that people with limited knowledge of computers and a thirst for being heard got an interest in computers; the press.

Sentral
01-01-2007, 03:21 PM
Hacking sounds better then cracking, in terms of breaking into computers and stealing info. For example: " I'm going to crack you!" doesn't sound so good. "I'm going to hack you!" sounds better. IMHO!

dac
01-01-2007, 07:18 PM
Hacking sounds better then cracking, in terms of breaking into computers and stealing info. For example: " I'm going to crack you!" doesn't sound so good. "I'm going to hack you!" sounds better. IMHO!

agreed. its hard not to be lured onto the "i wanna be a hacker" bandwagon, especially when your young i.e. < 25. but i try not to think about stuff like that and just enjoy computing in other ways (not porn btw lol) as the term is used quite alot by people mostly kids who have no knowledge of how a computer works, hence me keeping away from that steryotype.

mas0
01-01-2007, 11:49 PM
>> I don't think my wife

You're married? Damn these preconceived conceptions of ye all that I've built up over the last year! Reality's so much more confusing!!


>> to my beleif [...]

Both misspelled and probably not all encompassing. Not saying I have a better definition, but what really differentiates a 'script kiddie' from a 'hacker', to your beleif? Your examples were vague. Don't they all spring from the same source?

What would you say Bob is more of, from the original post? 'Script kiddie' or 'cr/h acker'?

he would be a script kiddie. not creating original concepts wud take him out of the hacking set. iwould say that he made the keylogger to make it undetectable to antiviruses so id say even not even coder. in the hacking "scene"


A hacker discovers exploits and writes POC with or without using them
A cracker would or wouldnt discover the exploit BUT use it with malicious intent i.e viruses worms botnets
a script kiddie wouldnt create any new exploit or new concept but would use it to either make a tool\malware with or without using it for malicious purposes.


http://www.able2know.com/forums/about10489.html

read that article

The discoverers are the actual hackers. white hat.
HD Moore also a hacker.
The creator of the worm blaster Jeffrey Lee Parson :- script kiddie
The people using the worm\botnet to steal CC keys or profit\malicious intent :-crackers.


EDIT:

And thank you for correcting my english mistakes it is very relevant to the topic... just i wont be arsed to spellcheck at 3 in the morning.

dac
01-02-2007, 05:36 AM
he would be a script kiddie. not creating original concepts wud take him out of the hacking set. iwould say that he made the keylogger to make it undetectable to antiviruses so id say even not even coder. in the hacking "scene"


A hacker discovers exploits and writes POC with or without using them
A cracker would or wouldnt discover the exploit BUT use it with malicious intent i.e viruses worms botnets
a script kiddie wouldnt create any new exploit or new concept but would use it to either make a tool\malware with or without using it for malicious purposes.


http://www.able2know.com/forums/about10489.html

read that article

The discoverers are the actual hackers. white hat.
HD Moore also a hacker.
The creator of the worm blaster Jeffrey Lee Parson :- script kiddie
The people using the worm\botnet to steal CC keys or profit\malicious intent :-crackers.


EDIT:

And thank you for correcting my english mistakes it is very relevant to the topic... just i wont be arsed to spellcheck at 3 in the morning.

so your saying you can only be a "hacker" if your original? when it comes to computing theres only a certain amount of originality, i mean if every single person so called a "hacker" was original then there wouldnt be much if anyting left to solve, not to mention each "hacker" being original in more than one technique, skill, exploit etc etc..

Nodtveidt
01-02-2007, 06:48 AM
I occasionally hex edit programs to remove limits, usually on programs that are too simplistic to justify paying money for or are so overpriced that even Bill Gates would get a stomachache. What "-cker" does that make me?

By the way, script kiddies are immature toads that just use scripts or programs (that someone else wrote) to do damage. A script kiddie typically has no coding skill in that particular area. Crackers are the ones who write the script or program. "But they don't use it!" like hell they don't...how do you think they made it work in the first place? No one codes blind...except maybe a blind coder (I don't know any, do you?).

dac
01-02-2007, 06:53 AM
I occasionally hex edit programs to remove limits, usually on programs that are too simplistic to justify paying money for or are so overpriced that even Bill Gates would get a stomachache. What "-cker" does that make me?


you naughty boy!


wish i knew how to do that lol,

mas0
01-02-2007, 09:20 AM
so your saying you can only be a "hacker" if your original? when it comes to computing theres only a certain amount of originality, i mean if every single person so called a "hacker" was original then there wouldnt be much if anyting left to solve, not to mention each "hacker" being original in more than one technique, skill, exploit etc etc..

WRONG!

Technology changes everyday improving becoming more challenging. Let me take a simple example. Firewall bypassing using a trojan.

At the beginning, trojans couldnt bypass firewalls or routers, hackers invented reverse connection i.e the server part of the trojan connecting to the hacker. this solved the problem of being behind a router.

since more and more people use firewalls, the hackers had to bypass that, firewalls usually have trusted programs. browsers messengers explorer etc. they figured out why not make a dll load called by one of those, it worked and bypassed firewalls.

now firewalls hit back with detecting blocking dlls. what happens next? hackers dont stop. they implement the technology to create a remote thread and run directly from a code in memory. firewalls look defeated, but no they block the use of the functions

WriteProcessMemory
CreateRemoteThread

bummer! hackers hit back by unhooking those user level functions. firewalls hit again by blocking the Kernel version of those calls. hackers hit back by patching the IAT..... story goes on. the fact that vista is out means that.... at least a dozen exploits are expected in a month. the first one has been out already.... it never stops, it is the quest for knowledge

mas0
01-02-2007, 09:27 AM
I occasionally hex edit programs to remove limits, usually on programs that are too simplistic to justify paying money for or are so overpriced that even Bill Gates would get a stomachache. What "-cker" does that make me?

By the way, script kiddies are immature toads that just use scripts or programs (that someone else wrote) to do damage. A script kiddie typically has no coding skill in that particular area. Crackers are the ones who write the script or program. "But they don't use it!" like hell they don't...how do you think they made it work in the first place? No one codes blind...except maybe a blind coder (I don't know any, do you?).

cracker. depending now. are you hex editing by yourself OR watching videos or reading step by step guides on how to do it(step by step guide for the program in question?) then again.... this is another definition of cracker, because the type of crackers who have that goal are usually in groups and they do release the cracks for the public for free. however some have money making motives OR malicious intent for example backdooring their pages or making money thru ads and so on.

EDIT:
cracking isnt hard, although i dnt have the knowledge to do it since ASM is out of my reach atm. however, patching is something , but let me give you a harder challenge. can you write me a piece of code that would make say the program you are hexing say dump a small file on the person executing it? would you take that as a challenge and do it? would you try or at least learn how to do it?

dac
01-02-2007, 12:32 PM
oooooooo, it looks like sombody has got their handbag out lol, what bugs me is that everybody seems to have the definate definition of what a hacker and a cracker are, who says who is right? judging by you not filing in a single detail about yourself makes me sceptical about where your coming from, i mean its hard to get a feel for the source of the info etc. not that im saying your likely to be wrong or anything. the terms are just a little subjective is all im saying.

Mario F.
01-02-2007, 01:12 PM
They aren't subjective.

An hacker is so without any malicious intent. A cracker has malicious intent. This is what they used to be back when this whole thread would make no sense.

The media then came along and oversimplified it. Along with movies and even games. Hacker became a choice word. An easy moniker to signify anyone capable of hacking into a system they don't own. Whether for good or bad reasons. Whether authorized to do so, or not.

Kennedy
01-02-2007, 01:18 PM
Not only to get into a system (hacker), but anything that one must do to find some piece of information that is unknown to that person (i.e. information that is not readily available or given out via the mfg. company). Also, making a change in software/hardware that increases(/possibly decreases) functionalitiy, whether by permission, is a hack.

Changing things in the Linux kernel, for example, is not wrong (illegal), however, is hacking.

dac
01-02-2007, 01:22 PM
ok ok, i grew tired of this debade a while ago. just love computing for what it is i say,

Nodtveidt
01-02-2007, 04:29 PM
cracker. depending now. are you hex editing by yourself OR watching videos or reading step by step guides on how to do it(step by step guide for the program in question?) then again.... this is another definition of cracker, because the type of crackers who have that goal are usually in groups and they do release the cracks for the public for free. however some have money making motives OR malicious intent for example backdooring their pages or making money thru ads and so on.
I never do it with the intent of making money off of it, and I also never release the changed versions to the public, I keep them for myself (selfish). I also do it solo without any help at all, no videos or guides on how to do it. I've also never been part of any groups.

The terms probably are subjective, but the definitions I go by are the ones established long before "hacker" was an undying media buzzword.