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Fool
09-05-2001, 03:05 PM
Let's have an epic discussion on this topic guys.

Personally, I'm very Pro-Microsoft. I think the monopoly is a good thing because most everything is compatible with most everything else. The prices arn't really that bad when you think about how many people slaved over a PC coding these operating systems. So what do you guys think?

-Fool

-KEN-
09-05-2001, 03:23 PM
No offense, fool...but moderators? I hope you know what to do with the post at hand. It's been played out as a topic, and will just get some people all hyper. Plus it's so BORING to discuss.

Aran
09-05-2001, 03:24 PM
I agree with you somwhat... MS is good for the computer industry because they bring the standards that, without which we'd not be able to use half of the programs on the market.

what do the rest of you think ( i know that dean is pro-MS).

Fool
09-05-2001, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by -KEN-
Plus it's so BORING to discuss.

Then don't reply. Just let us talk about it.

-Fool

Aran
09-05-2001, 03:36 PM
the 'us' there being you and i, fool?

hmm.. how 'bout dem yanks?

Pendragon
09-05-2001, 03:49 PM
Hmm.... I wonder how many times this conversation has taken place. A lot I should think.

I was brought up on it. My first computer that I was given when I was five/six ran DOS. I was introduced to Windows 3.1 later.

Though it is the thing for all programmers to want to decapitate Bill Gates and roast his corpse slowly over an open fire I found Windows quite user friendly and the Network, when introduced, convenient (though, granted, I never use it).

But... I still hate Bill Gates.

TheP.

Fool
09-05-2001, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Aran Elus
the 'us' there being you and i, fool?

hmm.. how 'bout dem yanks?

Hehe, no not just me and you. Everyone that would like to share their opinion on the topic.

-Fool

Aran
09-05-2001, 04:02 PM
greetings gentlemen,

if there is a chance to rack up the posts, i am all for it.

cheers!

ohh, and on an unrelated note:
all you base are belong to us.

Pendragon
09-05-2001, 04:07 PM
A bit of a mistranslation isn't it.

All your bass are belong to us.

I have another.

"Bite the Wax Tadpole."
-<i>Coca-Cola as originally translated into Chinese</i>

Aran
09-05-2001, 04:11 PM
now i present to you all the understatement of the year: "That's a bit of a mistranslation isn't it"?

On an unrelated note:
Friggadiggawaggadiggadum is the only coherent word that i've ever seen that has >= 8 g's.

Pendragon
09-05-2001, 04:18 PM
What does it mean? In your language?

Fool
09-05-2001, 05:42 PM
Great job of spamming the thread everyone...

-Fool

Nick
09-05-2001, 05:59 PM
[quote]
I agree with you somwhat... MS is good for the computer industry because they bring the standards that, without which we'd not be able to use half of the programs on the market.
[quote]
What standards? Can you discribe why you wouldn't be able
to use half the programs on the market?

Most of the evidence is to the contrary such as SAMBA and
microsoft's application formats. It's Microsoft's product, it's not
like their stealing something, but to be a contender when 90% use
Microsoft word, you need to be able to open microsoft word documents.
.NET seems to be more open for Microsoft but were're have to see when it's
released.

Zach L.
09-05-2001, 07:26 PM
I don't particularly like MS. The company is a really good company, but the products 'leave something to be desired'. MS products are neither stable nor consistent in my opinion.

Anyways, here is a good article that is worth a laugh or two. :D

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,13987,00.html

gamegod3001
09-05-2001, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Nick


What standards? Can you discribe why you wouldn't be able to use half the programs on the market?

Take this senero

There are 4 main OS for PC.

The first is Dean0S witch runs on 23% of all PC's
The Second is HillOS witch runs on 27% of all pc's
The third is Fruit0S witch runs on 24% of all pc's
The forth is Nix0S witch runs on 25% of all pc's

There is also a 1% group using other os primarly Cheez0S.

Now as a developer you would want to have your program run on at least 3 of these OS, in order to provide a stable market. This means you need all those OS witch cost monney. You probley want a difrent computer for each OS. You will have to port your program witch takes time.





Most of the evidence is to the contrary such as SAMBA and
microsoft's application formats. It's Microsoft's product, it's not
like their stealing something, but to be a contender when 90% use
Microsoft word, you need to be able to open microsoft word documents.
.NET seems to be more open for Microsoft but were're have to see when it's
released.

Why is having a standerd as simmple as a document format so wrong. If I wite a document that comes with my program I want you to be able to open it. If I created a file that use a fomat you cant open you can't read it.

Dude101
09-05-2001, 07:49 PM
Well, personally, I'd like to kill Bill Gates because of programming problems, but that has nothing to do with MS. That has to do with Bill Gates.

I think that without Microsoft, The computer world would have been screwed. Remember before IBM and Microsoft? Now, I wasn't alive back then, but I know for a fact that there were a LOT more operating systems in use than there are today. Now, if we were still there, with all these games, all this hardware, and all these programs, then we would have to port all our programs, we would have thousands or millions more man-hours being used to write drivers for our hardware.

Long gone are the days of programmers making all their programs. These days we have standards, therefore, without microsoft and their standards, we would be working thousands of times harder to do things.

-KEN-
09-05-2001, 08:11 PM
Actually, they all ran similar operating systems (if not the same), at least for business purposes. Then IBM did something wonderful and went with an open design on their PC, and, well it's all history after that...

Sebastiani
09-05-2001, 08:23 PM
I think that Microsoft contributed A LOT to the world of computers, but that doesn't make up for the fact that they have created an operating system that programmers only have indirect access to, they design systems that are crash-prone and inefficient, they are an incorrigible monopoly, and cannot seem to make security and privacy a reality in their products. Other than that, though, I'm all FOR Microsoft. I think they should change their name to Megasoft or Monoposoft or something... :p

Nick
09-05-2001, 09:15 PM
Why is having a standerd as simple as a document format so wrong.

Samba's protocol had to be reverse engineered.
I was referring to the anti-competitive tatics Microsoft uses.



Take this senero
There are 4 main OS for PC.
The first is Dean0S witch runs on 23% of all PC's
The Second is HillOS witch runs on 27% of all pc's
The third is Fruit0S witch runs on 24% of all pc's
The forth is Nix0S witch runs on 25% of all pc's
There is also a 1% group using other os primarly Cheez0S.

Cross platform api's such as opengl and Xlib which runs
under most unixes.



Now as a developer you would want to have your program run on at least 3 of these OS, in order to provide a stable market. This means you need all those OS witch cost monney. You probley want a difrent computer for each OS. You will have to port your program witch takes time.

Just about every major application being build for windows
now days must be beta tested with windows 95, 98, windows me, windows NT, windows 2000. It must also be tested against different hardware situations. Your forgetting that
there's multiple markets for consoles etc.

Sebastiani
09-05-2001, 09:29 PM
Let me further my point about the OS. An OS, to be really useful, should be completely free and open. Why? Because otherwise you have a situation where the OS maker has control over the systems designer. When all a programmer has to go by is what microsoft tells him about their *top secret* OS, there is a severe limitation thus placed on the programmer. Take UNIX. I've heard programmers utterly praise the fact that they have a direct knowledge of the precise nature of the innerworkings of this OS. If Microsoft were to be fair, the OS would be open and the software they wrote to run on that platform would be propriety.

nvoigt
09-06-2001, 02:34 AM
they have created an operating system that programmers only have indirect access to, they design systems that are crashprone


Now what makes an OS crashprone is allowing direct access.
Which btw you have in windows as a programmer if you
write something like a device driver. I don't see a reason anyone
should fiddle with the graphics memory directly for example.



beta tested with windows 95, 98, windows me, windows NT, windows 2000


Testing shouldn't take that much time if you test it on various
windows systems. What takes time is debugging and when it
runs without errors on NT, it pretty much runs on anything else,
too.

Govtcheez
09-06-2001, 06:48 AM
I'm generally for them, but I don't agree with everything. I really, really don't like their new registration policies with XP. I still don't think I should have to convince MS that I didn't steal the OS when I upgrade my system.

I'd like them to release an open source OS, if not just to shut up the Linux whiners.

ober
09-06-2001, 08:11 AM
umm... Linux whiners? I see most of you people aren't much for UNIX or Linux as the case may be. I'll have you know that it's one of the most stable and efficient OSs available... at any brand or flavor. If I wasn't raised on MS products, something I blame on society as a whole, I'd probably be a full time Linux user... don't get me wrong... MS has its pros... and to be honest, I do like some of their software... but mainly because everyone else has it and it's easier to go with the grain.

As a whole, I sadly have to say I'm for MS for my own desktop use, but that's only because game designers don't port their games to Linux most of the time... :) LINUX RULES, WINDOWS DROOLS...

and XP sucks.

Govtcheez
09-06-2001, 08:24 AM
OK, I agree with most of what ober said, 'cept his closing jab. I'm writing to address Fool's first post. Why is the monopoly a good thing? First of all, they don't have a pure monopoly, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Secondly, if they actually did have a monopoly, they could just raise prices to whatever they wanted. Since we all run their stuff, there'd be no relief from whatever they wanted to do. I don't think a monopoly is good, in any case at all.

And, next...
There is also a 1% group using other os primarly Cheez0S.Just 1%, gg? Damn... I guess it's time to bring out CheetOS XS (extra special). It'll primarily be for the Wombat gaming system that I spoke about in a much earlier thread, but its cross-platform compatibility spreads to refrigerators, freezers (we finally broke the ice-cube matrix!), and thumbtacks.

Sebastiani
09-06-2001, 10:52 AM
Now what makes an OS crashprone is allowing direct access.

Let me illustrate this as a metaphor:

Let's say you have a car. Now the car-maker says " You can add stuff(*apps*) to the car(*windows*) but if what you add is not working properly(*bugs*) you may NOT look under the hood(*OS*) even if it might help you solve the problem. Instead we have this little manual here that we personally wrote that must be consulted in the event of such problems".

So what if they leave something out?

I have actually stumbled on websites where the programmer writes "...if I hadn't discovered the solution quite by accident, as I did, I probably would never have solved the problem. Apparently Microsoft did not bother to document this strange anomoly..."

So my point is, to me it seems that Microsoft is making it harder for Non-Microsoft engineers to solve problems/innovate, etc...

ober
09-06-2001, 12:18 PM
nvoigt... I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your statements COMPLETELY.

Writing a device driver DOES NOT allow you, the programmer, direct access to the OS. I don't know where you got your training, but that's complete BS. I think you're completely missing the whole idea behind the open source movement. And some of us like to tweak... do you have a problem with that? Getting peak performance out of a piece of hardware is essential in some situations.

I think Sebastiani made a good point, but I disagree with his last statement. Open source developers do not have any problem being innovative and "thinking outside the box". It is these morons that only program for Windows that are stuck INSIDE the box. Look at Linus Torvalds... I don't think M$ had anything to do with holding him down.

The whole point behind open source is to allow individuals, who either see bugs or simply do not like the way a program works, to break it down, change the code and recompile it. Hell, with Linux you can recompile the freakin kernel! No hand holding like in windows! You have COMPLETE control. Don't like how it works? THEN FIX IT.

Sebastiani
09-06-2001, 12:36 PM
I think Sebastiani made a good point, but I disagree with his last statement.

When I say "Non-Microsoft engineers" I mean Windows programmers that are NOT working at Microsoft...

ober
09-06-2001, 12:57 PM
ok... I guess I misunderstood your statement. And I think you're right... not having open source and well developed commenting/reporting standards is definately a hinderance. I think they could open up a little more and spill the guts of some of their programming without a significant revenue loss... but that's just me. I'm sure some piracy would immediately take place... but this business of registering your copy of XP and all of that jazz is a little out of hand.. and I'm sure most of you agree with me on that. That is purely a money making scheme.

Sebastiani
09-06-2001, 01:36 PM
I'm sure some piracy would immediately take place...


Ha! I feel sorry for the stupid SOB that steals THAT OS!!!

Koshare
09-06-2001, 08:23 PM
Ever here of linux, Java , or Unix? Its all about drivers- and linux has proved how a small OS can have a driver base that supports almost everything. "Standards" is very much a microsoft term - Java although some of you hate it is much better than MFC, or WIN32 API. Opengl will work on any machine that supports it (macOS, Solaris, Linux, etc.)

Take unix for example it was developed in 95% C, if you have a way of converting C to machine code you have a Unix compatible machine.

Linux works on Alphas, 386s, etc. It did not take billions and billions of dollars and a monopoly to get this support.

Microsoft realized Java would destroy the imaginary "Standards" imposed by microsoft- So they made J++, got sued and are now making C#. And to continue the "Standards" C# is heavily (dont believe the MS BS) intertwined with their properiteiry Visual Basic.

Microsoft has made very little innovations, every one of there oses\programs is made from another companys idea

Dos = Unix(actuallly dos was bought)
Windows = MacOS
WindowsNT = Unix
Microsoft office = Corel Whatever it was...
Windows XP = Linux + Unix + MacOS

gamegod3001
09-06-2001, 08:46 PM
>Just 1%, gg? Damn... I guess it's time to bring out CheetOS XS (extra special). It'll primarily be for the Wombat gaming system that I spoke about in a much earlier thread, but its cross-platform compatibility spreads to refrigerators, freezers (we finally broke the ice-cube matrix!), and thumbtacks. <

Oh yeah you get 2% take a persent from the fruitOS

[commplety of topic]
Since windows has x-box
and
cheezOS has Wombat

Who do you think sony and nintendo would pair up with.

My guess is sony would creat sony linux
and Nintendo would team up with Mac.

[/completly of topic]

>Dos = Unix(actuallly dos was bought)
Windows = MacOS
WindowsNT = Unix
Microsoft office = Corel Whatever it was...
Windows XP = Linux + Unix + MacOS<
It's time I release the SECRET MICROSOFT TEPLETE CODE. I only have the main funcion though



#include <otherprogram.h>
#inclucde <modify.h>

if def win9x
void main()
if def winnt
int main ()
{
convert (company, OriganalToMicrosoft);
convert (productName, OriganalToOurs);
if (win9X)
{
createbugs(Lots, restartneeded);
}
if (winnt)
{
return 0;
}
}

ober
09-06-2001, 08:59 PM
AHHHH... someone help him! He's fallen prey to the Witch King and that evil frickin AVATAR! gamegod... it's not too late... you can still be saved... you're young and impressionable... we realize this, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.... or on the other side of the back door of McDonald's on the way to take the trash out... you get my point...

gamegod3001
09-06-2001, 09:56 PM
that doesn't make up for the fact that they have created an operating system that programmers only have indirect access to, they design systems that are crash-prone and inefficient,

What do you mean inderect accsess to the OS? I presume you mean hardware. Why in the world do you want to write drivers for your programs, all that would do is take up space and time. I let windows take care of the drivers and I don't have to worry about them. I rearly have any crashes with my computer and when I do I just run scan disk and defrag and every thing is fixed.


>. I really, really don't like their new registration policies with XP. I still don't think I should have to convince MS that I didn't steal the OS when I upgrade my system. <
I think eliminating Piritcy will be the downfull of microsofts monnopoly since very very very few people go out an buy Microsofts newist and greatest program, they usely just go and borrow someone elses. Who got theres when they brought a new compuer

>Java although some of you hate it is much better than MFC, or WIN32 API<

JAVA != to cross plaftform

Java is interperted into bite code witch in turn can be interperated into machine code that will run on any os that has a way to interpert the byte code to machen code. Java is only theoraticly cross plaftorm.


>Opengl will work on any machine that supports it
I will be very ........ed at mirosoft if they drop support for OpenGl since it is the standerd for graphics.

Scourfish
09-07-2001, 11:32 AM
Forget the whole MS Anti- MS war, instead, go for MoFos: http://www.somethingawful.com/features/samofos/index.htm

Koshare
09-07-2001, 12:58 PM
I never said java worked on every machine, but it has GUI + database support, etc. Does any other "Standard" have all these things?

Most OSes have A JVM, while very few have a windows emulator... If all software were to be developed on Java Microsoft would have NOTHING...

iain
09-07-2001, 08:28 PM
Start the Anti-M$ front
join me
sign here
__________

*sign*

gamegod3001
09-07-2001, 08:39 PM
> I never said java worked on every machine, but it has GUI + database support, etc. Does any other "Standard" have all these things? <

Your point, java is not a standered nor is it cross platform.

>Most OSes have A JVM, while very few have a windows emulator... If all software were to be developed on Java Microsoft would have NOTHING...<

I have looked for linux emultors and could find none. And java needs to be supported by the OS. Java is slllloooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Why do you come here if it is so great.

DavidP
09-07-2001, 08:52 PM
Ah...a MS discussion...

Well, I have heard a lot of good points, and I would like to comment on them and make some of my own.



And some of us like to
tweak... do you have a problem with that?
Getting peak performance out of a piece of
hardware is essential in some situations.


Hmmm...just so you know, some times the tweaking you need to do is actually on the hard ware end, not the software...

But anyways...

Microsoft is good and bad in many ways. Like many before me have said, they have brought a set of standards to the computer world. I dont have official numbers, but I would say about 99% of home users use MS Windows 9x. Windows originally became so popular because of its easy to use interface, and it had a whole set of Office programs to go with it, along with a few nice games. So since the public liked it, it became wide spread. Since it is so wide spread, you can easily trade files and programs with people with no worry about porting it to their OS or something like that.

However, even though Windows was very nice to the public, it is not as nice to the programmer. Windows is incredibly unstable (I have not used NT, but supposedly it is much more stable, hopefully XP will be very stable), and so the hard core users of Windows end up having to reboot several times a day because of computer freeze ups. Programmers went with Windows because the public liked it, and so they knew they would have a nice market when using Windows as their OS.

However, now we are trapped. We use Windows because everybody uses it, so it is pretty universal. But we dont want to use Windows because it is unstable (hopefully XP will solve that and then all of our problems will be solved). So we are left with the choice of using Windows, stalling several times a day, but being compatible with everyone else, or not using Windows, being more stable, but not being compatible with everyone else. A tough choice for programmers...hopefully XP will be nice and stable so we wont have to make that choice.

Nick
09-07-2001, 11:09 PM
I've never had NT have a total system crash but I have seen many NT's with
blue screens in the lab. Login time is prohibitive, over 5 minutes! I'd probably expect a crash every four days. Not good for servers but good enough for workstations.

Having one product dominate the market is not having a
standard it's a monopoly. A standard well sort of requires at least two different companies agreeing on something. An example would be opengl, sgi doesn't
control it, decisions are made by a standard commitee, of which sgi and Microsoft are
members.

ober
09-10-2001, 06:09 AM
We use NT workstations here at my place of employment... just peachy I tell ya... has anyone else seen the famous "memory dump" on the screen? Looks like a blue screen that sorta puked on itself. I'd rather use 98 workstations any day... (yes, I'm conceding to using an M$ product, but people are morons... do you know how long it would take to teach people how to use Linux workstations? You should see the level of intelligence with NT... ridiculous...