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View Full Version : Logic for computer science.

indigo0086
09-26-2006, 07:45 AM
Is it just me, or do I have no Idea what's going on in this class. It reminds me of the time I got lost in the grocery store when I was little, except then I at least knew the difference between a banana and an orange. I know I'm not the only one in the class, because several have already expressed their frustration. I don't know, maybe I'm just not focusing enough, but it doesn't *click* with myself. Anyone take this horrific course before?

risby
09-26-2006, 09:12 AM
except then I at least knew the difference between a banana and an orange.

Oranges are spherical and coloured orange. Bananas are more cylindrical and coloured yellow, often with black spots.

Driver
09-26-2006, 09:19 AM
Except in Florida, where oranges are green :)
Well, they were when I was there earlier this year. I know ... I ate one.

indigo0086
09-26-2006, 09:21 AM
Oranges are spherical and coloured orange. Bananas are more cylindrical and coloured yellow, often with black spots.

prove it

...case 1 billion, let O and W be two disjoint oranges, one the color of orange, and one without...

SilentStrike
09-26-2006, 11:43 AM
Maybe your professor is just bad? Do you have any specific questions?

System_159
09-26-2006, 11:59 AM
Maybe your professor is just bad? Do you have any specific questions?

What's the topic of the class currently? I can't tell by the name of it, because it could be either an intro class or a higher up class.

twomers
09-26-2006, 12:15 PM
Heh, anyone ever hear about the Riemann Hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_Hypothesis)? Basically, to date (to a few billion test numbers, it's got something to do with the frequency of random numbers), it has proved true to the hypothesis, but that doesn't count as a mathematical proof. So, with this whole fruit debate that's going on, whose to say a banana is 'cylindrical', an orange is 'spherical' etc. Anyone remember those rectangular water melons? :D

Back on topic.

I had two subjects last year where I didn't have a clue what the lecturer was on about, so I think I went to about 5 or 7 classes between them both. Complaints were made, and contrary to past practices, the tests weren't incredibly difficult (people who previously complained about these particular lecturers were graced with horrible exams at summer). My advice - get the exam papers! Even if it is ridiculously early for getting them. Look through them. See what you can/can't do (what course material you have covered, not what questions are too hard). Try to do them, and try to get answers for everything.

indigo0086
09-26-2006, 07:57 PM
I actually scored a copy of a past exam. But it's just unbeleivable how if you look around the class, you don't just see the other students with an indifferent ambiguous look on their face, but most of them give obvious "JESUS CHRIST KILL ME!" look on their face, and afterwards several students get together to share how much they didn't understand. I mean it was like a guy was telling me, when you try to explain 1 + 1 = 2 to a pre-schooler, it doesn't click to them. I just am not coming from where the teacher is personally. I either have to drop this class, or drop all the other ones. I will just take the first test, probably fail the thing, and drop it. I have three other classes that are less time consuming to merely fathom let alone understand, and need three good grades rather than three okay ones and a horrible one.

Mainly it's the proofs that are confusing. I mean I KNOW what I have to prove, but when pencil hits the paper, I have to refer to EVERYTHING before it to even start the proof. Sometimes it's not so hard, but most of the time it is.

Maragato
09-26-2006, 08:44 PM
I actually scored a copy of a past exam. But it's just unbeleivable how if you look around the class, you don't just see the other students with an indifferent ambiguous look on their face, but most of them give obvious "JESUS CHRIST KILL ME!" look on their face, and afterwards several students get together to share how much they didn't understand. I mean it was like a guy was telling me, when you try to explain 1 + 1 = 2 to a pre-schooler, it doesn't click to them. I just am not coming from where the teacher is personally. I either have to drop this class, or drop all the other ones. I will just take the first test, probably fail the thing, and drop it. I have three other classes that are less time consuming to merely fathom let alone understand, and need three good grades rather than three okay ones and a horrible one.

Mainly it's the proofs that are confusing. I mean I KNOW what I have to prove, but when pencil hits the paper, I have to refer to EVERYTHING before it to even start the proof. Sometimes it's not so hard, but most of the time it is.

Man I would suggest http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/lics/
, logic is really somewhat abstract on the beginning also needs tons of exercises to be grokked I would suggest you to don't drop it cause many important things will come from this branch of CS if you plan to keep the course. If you want something really wierd and damm useless look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_theory this is freaking worthless x17 is present in my course cause a teacher who never did anything usefull in life considers this of "ultimate" importance for a CS course. Btw I had the test today and after like 1 week of study I think I screwed the plan of scoring well on the first and get some breath for the others.

Wraithan
09-26-2006, 09:03 PM
I never liked Proofs myself, luckly no programming class has had a real proofs section just kinda glossed over it. If you guys have any real questions, bring them here I am sure we wouldn't mind discussing them with you guys. As long as your are just trying to gleam answers for homework and are honestly needing us to help you understand post away.

glo
09-26-2006, 09:30 PM
Does anyone here know where can I learn or at least get an introduction of the subject / proving?
Thanks.

Maragato
09-26-2006, 09:40 PM
Does anyone here know where can I learn or at least get an introduction of the subject / proving?
Thanks.
Google, Wikipedia, some universities also disponibilize their material online just look for logic courses in google :P

indigo0086
09-27-2006, 06:38 AM
Man I would suggest http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/lics/
, logic is really somewhat abstract on the beginning also needs tons of exercises to be grokked I would suggest you to don't drop it cause many important things will come from this branch of CS if you plan to keep the course. If you want something really wierd and damm useless look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_theory this is freaking worthless x17 is present in my course cause a teacher who never did anything usefull in life considers this of "ultimate" importance for a CS course. Btw I had the test today and after like 1 week of study I think I screwed the plan of scoring well on the first and get some breath for the others.

The thing is unless I want to do AI or something this course isn't hugely important to the rest of CS. I'm almost finished and am taking data structures, graph theory, and computer organization and those I can handle, they are interesting and fairly easy to learn. I look in the logic book (written by my professor) and it looks like he made this all up in a psychotic fit. If I drop it I'll eventually have to take it again, but at a lighter coursework, maybe one of my lame courses.

Oh, not to mention there is a 1 credit course that is like a ton of presentations. Ethics in computer science....lame.

Maragato
09-28-2006, 02:48 PM
The thing is unless I want to do AI or something this course isn't hugely important to the rest of CS. I'm almost finished and am taking data structures, graph theory, and computer organization and those I can handle, they are interesting and fairly easy to learn. I look in the logic book (written by my professor) and it looks like he made this all up in a psychotic fit. If I drop it I'll eventually have to take it again, but at a lighter coursework, maybe one of my lame courses.

Oh, not to mention there is a 1 credit course that is like a ton of presentations. Ethics in computer science....lame.
As a student wich i finishing CS course going to study abroad I insist logic is important and believe I hate theorical /*fluffy cushions*/

IfYouSaySo
09-28-2006, 05:10 PM
At my school this was called "Fundamentals of Higher math" or something like that. There is a belief that the same sort of skills that are required for programming, are also required for doing proofs.

While this might be true, it didn't stop me from absolutely hating the class. It was one of those, "I'm never going to use this again in my life, ever." experiences. I mean, I get it: logic, critical thinking, applying a series of rules to solve a problem. They're important skills. But really, you can learn those skills 15 different ways. And doing proofs just happens to be the most stick-up-the-ass way that that I can think of to do it.

I guess you just have to stick it out like the rest of us did, even if you don't like it. That's part of what college is about, anyway.

Prelude
09-28-2006, 06:02 PM
>Anyone take this horrific course before?
Most of the computer scientists in the world. Up until recently (when college courses started dumbing down with Java), the first quarter of any CS course was designed as a culling process to get rid of the people who couldn't cut it in the field. If you're in one of the few remaining horror courses, consider yourself lucky. You can learn a lot more than the average CS course if you stick to it.

SlyMaelstrom
09-28-2006, 06:14 PM
the first quarter of any CS course was designed as a culling process to get rid of the people who couldn't cut it in the field.Phew... good thing I missed that wave of teaching. :p

Trust me... a couple more decades here in the mail room and I'll definitely be a programmer.

Doxygen
09-29-2006, 05:37 AM
Your definitely not alone. When I first start my computing course I was completely overwhelmed. I think you just need some time for adjustment. If it is pulling down on your other subjects, then you should consider dropping it.

Maragato
10-01-2006, 10:43 AM
Doxygen I think CS has some pre-requistes wich are of great abstractness so it is confuzing on the beginning specially if you are 17 yo uni freshmen.

indigo0086
10-02-2006, 06:13 AM
>Anyone take this horrific course before?
Most of the computer scientists in the world. Up until recently (when college courses started dumbing down with Java), the first quarter of any CS course was designed as a culling process to get rid of the people who couldn't cut it in the field. If you're in one of the few remaining horror courses, consider yourself lucky. You can learn a lot more than the average CS course if you stick to it.

well this is like a third tier class, having only one tier left until the end, after logic is algorithms, which I'm taking introduction to with Data Structures. I've been in college for about 4 yeass, don't get me wrong. I started off in like pre-college level math, then went on to take and pass the higher levels like discrete math and calculus, so I can learn. But with logic I'm hitting a rut. I know I have to adjust, but If I take it again I will still not understand the subject, especially if I take it with my current teacher. Plus we're using a book he wrote (actually, is still writing), ugh. I think I'm going to invest in some other logic material and take the class later. We have a test soon so I'll wait until then.

Tonto
10-05-2006, 11:08 PM
If any one cares, I was wondering if they could give me some advice then. I mean, I finished AP AB CS Java here in high school, 5 on the exam blah w/o trying, but these cs classes for college sound very difficult. I'm also taking BC calc, haven't done any stats, took some basic physics, but do you think it's smart to take advantage of these AP credit-in-college dealios?

I've never ever had good study habits, and I just don't want to jump into something way over my head.

Wraithan
10-05-2006, 11:12 PM
If you are succeeding in AP classes then you shouldn't have too much of a problem. You should still take the whol CS first/second year line when you get to college. The one will be really boring but it pays off later when you actually start learning.

And any program is still practice, even if you dont turn in your version with all the extra features because your teacher grades you down on it (what happened to me).

indigo0086
10-06-2006, 07:28 AM
I'd say this class and prob and stat are the hardest classes I've taken. programming 1 and 2 are a breeze, especially if you already know java, it's just baby steps. Data structures is a little tough because I'm not good at figuring out mathematical or puzzle type things (hence not that good at algorithms) but can implement them just fine in C++ or Java if I'm given. And the computer structure classes are interesting, but boring to sit through.

Maragato
10-06-2006, 10:08 AM
If you're in one of the few remaining horror courses, consider yourself lucky. You can learn a lot more than the average CS course if you stick to it.

I'm in one of those but I don't consider my self lucky, I have serious doubts if this will be usefull for me on real life work. Most of time these things seem like a megalomaniac point of view of a teacher :(

Prelude
10-06-2006, 04:41 PM
>I have serious doubts if this will be usefull for me on real life work.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

;)

Tonto
10-06-2006, 07:26 PM
>> And the computer structure classes are interesting, but boring to sit through.

Definition of boring :/\

So lacking in interest as to cause mental weariness

Well, I feel that way about some of my classes. Despite interesting subject material, it seems just terribly boring to sit through. I feel I do better just sitting with a textbook.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

Those are powerful opinions. I kind of feel like a Blub-C-Programmer.

Wraithan
10-06-2006, 07:29 PM
That is why online classes were invented. Also usually you can still go in to see your teacher (if you live near campus) if you need some help.

indigo0086
10-06-2006, 08:55 PM
I pluck my chin hairs (when they aren't shaven) to stay awake in some classess.

Tonto
10-06-2006, 09:41 PM
I pick at the wierd layer of skin under my fingernail (when I haven't cut then) to distract myself in some classes.

>> That is why online classes were invented. Also usually you can still go in to see your teacher (if you live near campus) if you need some help.

I always worry about credibility and what things are subtley communicated with things like this. Overarching question: am I just paranoid?

whiteflags
10-06-2006, 10:04 PM
Mostly. I take some college courses online as it is my only way to attend right now. You probably won't find it a waste of time or have too much of a problem communicating. Not seeing people in class or interacting very much with the professor has gotten to me as of late though, so if you're like me, that will bother you.

While it is true that a professor will still have office hours, I find that a big paradox. If I could get to school I would probably not need online courses at all.