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siavoshkc
08-01-2006, 01:48 PM
Is this board good for political discussions?
Post your idea about this. It may make the board a battle front.

kermit
08-01-2006, 01:54 PM
Why don't you start a thread about something political and see how it goes?

Driver
08-01-2006, 02:01 PM
Why not use this one.
What's the opinion here of the current situation in the Middle East?

twomers
08-01-2006, 02:02 PM
I don't know, but are you Irish Angoid?

Driver
08-01-2006, 02:10 PM
No ..... but I do like a certain Irish artist (http://www.moyabrennan.com/) :)

Govtcheez
08-01-2006, 02:12 PM
This board is terrible for political discussions, much like 99% of other boards out there. The people are generally either grossly mis/underinformed or they're just dicks. The vast majority of people come into the "debate" with their minds made up, and nothing you say will change that.

That doesn't make them any less fun, though :)

twomers
08-01-2006, 02:18 PM
I know! (Not that I've ever done it ;)), but it's rather entertaining to go to some political forum/chat room, find someone who seems rather attached to their points of view, and then make up quotes etc and confuse them ... or so I've heard:rolleyes:

FillYourBrain
08-01-2006, 02:21 PM
...The vast majority of people come into the "debate" with their minds made up, and nothing you say will change that.
NO THEY DON'T. You @ss!

Driver
08-01-2006, 02:22 PM
I've known forums that have had political "debating chambers" but have closed them down because many of the debates would just turn into flaming matches ..... people who once considered each other as "forum friends" end up turning against each other.

twomers
08-01-2006, 02:25 PM
Brother against brother, families split. Happens everywhere.

But why even consider political discussions on a programming forum? Seems kinda aloof to be honest. Firstly, how many people on this forum do you think would be interested in discussing politics? Second, out of that number, I'd say about half would discuss politics, if even. Third, I don't think the discussions would be all that successful.

Mario F.
08-01-2006, 02:35 PM
No. This is a bad place to start a political debate. Especially about international politics. People are usually very passionate about these themes and nothing will be achieved other than firing our own private CProg international war.

EDIT: However, the question seems if it is legal or illegal. Nothing on the rules state it is illegal to start a debate over it. But... be ready if you are going to enter it.

twomers
08-01-2006, 02:41 PM
>> ... firing our own private CProg international war.

It's not quite international nor was it political (more personal), but I believe I'm currently on the loosing side of an international war with dwks :(

... and I'd have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for this dog and these kids!

Mario F.
08-01-2006, 02:49 PM
kidnap his M&Ms

twomers
08-01-2006, 02:51 PM
Yeah! That would avenge his ... betrayal is a harsh word ... :)

Wraithan
08-01-2006, 03:07 PM
To me, England was nothing more than a big American state... like North Dakota or Canada.

(from a favorite movie of mine, SLC Punk... just thought it would be funny to say.)

Salem
08-01-2006, 03:12 PM
> NO THEY DON'T. You @ss!
<monty python>
http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-arguement.html
</monty python>

Mario F.
08-01-2006, 03:16 PM
Possibly the most famous of their sketches. I love to see it on tape. Priceless! :)

MadCow257
08-01-2006, 05:01 PM
It would be fine, but your thread will be on something completely different within 15 posts :(

kermit
08-01-2006, 06:07 PM
It would be fine, but your thread will be on something completely different within 15 posts :(

Sometimes hijacking can be politically motivated...

SlyMaelstrom
08-01-2006, 08:41 PM
It's not quite international nor was it political (more personal), but I believe I'm currently on the loosing side of an international war with dwks :( Scotland is at war with Canada? Why don't I hear about these things!?!?

How about that invisibility post, eh? Pretty crazy, eh? Eh?!?

joeprogrammer
08-01-2006, 09:03 PM
How about that invisibility post, eh? Pretty crazy, eh? Eh?!?
Huh? Well, I'll be. Duh. You sound just like a Canadian. :rolleyes:

twomers
08-01-2006, 11:18 PM
I don't know what you are on about!! Invisability?????

siavoshkc
08-02-2006, 12:20 AM
Invisibility.
I saw the use of this hiding technique for the first time in a site of a Swiss bank. It has a story:
Once I was in yahoo chat, a girl PMed me and said she is from Azerbaijan but now she is in Nigeria and her father is dead by a gun shut. She said her father was a business man who had 7 million $$$ in his Swiss bank account and she is unable to unblock this money because she has no money to do so and she is now living in a poor old man house whose son is dead and the computer was for his sun. She directed me to the Swiss bank website and told me two passwords to enter the account that was blocked to prove me she is true. She even sent some pics of her and a dead certificate for his father. Then she asked me to send some money for her (heh, never ever even if I believed her). That day I went to our police website. There was a warning about Nigerian mails. I checked that in Interpol website and with one my american yahoo friends too. They said sometimes these criminals bring some people to Nigeria and steal their money. It seems that Nigeria government is a partner of these people.
It was the first time I faced this type of faking.
I had more chats with her later and told her you are a fake, but she never accepted. I told her I will call interpol for this and she answered:"Wow, I am so scared I am waiting for FBI troops."
But she told me something that I think was true. She said these situations such as blocked money are common in Nigeria.

GanglyLamb
08-02-2006, 05:11 AM
But she told me something that I think was true. She said these situations such as blocked money are common in Nigeria.

I spent one year in Nigeria doing voluntary work. I've been to small villages , small towns and cities like Lagos.

Now during that year I never heard of such things from Nigerian that I was close to. I even used Nigerian Banks for a while to transfer money from Belgium to Nigeria. Except that all these things take forever , money is never blocked.

What I did see alot in the cybercafes were people writing these 419 mails ( thats how they call it back there, something with a police code for scamming I guess ).
Now you would think that someone who does professional 419'ing would copy paste those mail, well the ones I saw always typed there mail in the cybercafe, after sending it they started on writing the next one :D.

419 is so common back there they even write "This house is not for sale, beware of 419" on every house". The reason is, and this is how it goes:

I own a house, I go on holiday, some guys know I'm away for a longer period, they break into the house, and pretend to be the owner, they then say they want to sell the house. No problems since all kinds of papers can be and will be faked in Nigeria as long as you have enough money. When I come back I find strangers in my house who claim they bought it ( and everything is perfectly legal since all official papers were ok ).

The fact that normal common people start with 419 is the fact that they are poor, don't have anything to eat, get in debt with richer Nigerians that give them money but at the end they'll have to pay 10 times as much back.

If these normal people go to work ( for example a teacher in primary school ) they will earn around 3000 to 5000 Naira. ( 160 Naira is probably around 1$ on the black market ). Now they have to pay the rent for a small room ( maybe 2 meters by 3 meters, where they live with their wive and maybe 3 or 4 children ). After paying for that room they can maybe keep 1500 Naira...
A bread was like 80 Naira when I was there ( although six months before the same bread was only 40 Naira ... inflation huh ).

Now try to feed your children with only 1500 Naira left, then you don't even have electricity or water in your room....

So the only solution is to let your children work as well after school, or better yet most don't go to school and work on the street just to try and make ends...

And the place where all this misery starts is the top... President, Politicians , Police, Immigration services ... in short every government body or whatever is as corrupt as it can get ...

Rich people keep getting richer and the poor are becoming poorer...

So if I was a Nigerian and living in places like Ebute Meta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebute-Meta) or in any other crappy place I'd probably do this 419 as well... As I got nothing to lose.

All of this also applies probably to many other West african countries , and is the reason why so many risk their live trying to get to Europe by sea on these crappy boats...

When you see dead people lying by the road, or see your own children dying of starvation or see them getting ill with no money to treat them , and all you can do is stand by and watch ... I'd do the same thing and would start a 419 as well!

Btw, you don't want to know how many Nigerian 419 mails I get in my Inbox as soon as I got back home, if they were all true then by now I would be richer then Bill Gates I think :D.

siavoshkc
08-02-2006, 05:44 AM
And the place where all this misery starts is the top... President, Politicians , Police, Immigration services ... in short every government body or whatever is as corrupt as it can get ...

UN should do something for them. Change they gov by force maybe.

Now the most important question: How much they earn by 419?

GanglyLamb
08-02-2006, 07:04 AM
UN should do something for them. Change they gov by force maybe.

Now the most important question: How much they earn by 419?

As for changing government, recently Obsanjo ( the president of Nigeria ) wanted to change the constitution just so he could stay in charge for another 4 years on, although I don't think the change got trough.

I'm not saying he hasn't done anything for the people, he organised a commitee that is supposed to check and crack down on corruption on all levels and so on.
But the question is then, how corrupt is this commitee itself ...

I was there when there were elections for the head of states ( governor ), and when I talked to the people on the street and asked if they were going to vote, they said "why bother , they'll rigg the elections one way or the other". So although not many people went to vote, when the votes were counted it seemed alot of people went to vote. Even in areas where maybe in total 10 000 people may be living for example they received more then 12 000 votes for example...

So changing government should be done by elections, but these elections should be carefully monitored by the UN ( just like they did now with Congo ).

As for how much they earn it depends what they want to achieve, if someone writes a 419 saying someone could make 7 million $ then its unlikely they'll get somewhere with that. If you say someone could make 1000$ by donating 10$ to the 419'er , and the guy who setted it up would get like 100 people doing this then he'll be earning alot :).

Now to be honest I myself have been 419'ed when I was there, I was only 18, and still believed that everybody was as honest as me, and I was blind to alot of things that were going on... That stage only lasted 3 months, after that my eyes were opened and since then the world I see is less pretty though more realistic.

My foolishness , thinking that people are good from nature costed me alot of money, even so much that by the end of the year when I had to return from there, I didn't even had enough money to rearrange my flight ticket. I had to borrow money and when I returned I payed it back...

Although actually I should be thankfull that they pulled that trick on me, since I didn't have alot of money and was barely surviving of the money I was earning with my second job there , I got around 15 € a month( besides my voluntary work ). This brought me much closer to 95% of all the people that are living there, I lived like them, I ate like them etc etc ... I cant even count the times I didn't eat for like 3 days on, just having enough money to buy some water... at those times I felt the love of the Nigerians, if one can't make it on his own you can always count on your neighbour if he has more money then you at the time. And the opposite also happened more then once.

The only luck I had when I was there was that I had a full medical insurance, so at least I could go to the hospital if I was seriously ill.

But there are people that don't have any other bussines then 419 and they can make a decent living out of it ( way better then having a normal job ).
I should also say that even if you are educated it doesn't matter how much you earn... I've met numerous taxi drivers that have a university degree, some are doctors but there is just no employment for them...

GanglyLamb
08-02-2006, 07:34 AM
Yes they'll do it again, they get caught and bribe the one apprehending them :).

On the loose again, they start all over again, for example:

The thief steals *duh* , he gets caught he hands over 1/5 of the loot to the officer apprehending him. The officer is pleased since his living standard is now raised for a short while. The thief is pleased since he as well raised his living standard and can steal again.

The person the thief stole something from has little left and for him the long way to get back where he once was starts all over again.
It's easy to get to the dark side when you are in this kind of situation... in the end he'll give in and go along with the thief.

Decrypt
08-02-2006, 07:39 AM
I'm with Cheez. It's nearly impossible to have an actual dialogue, since most people will have already made up their minds. In that situation, the "debate" becomes more about "winning" the argument than producing any sort of discussion.

There are plenty of people out there, and, I imagine, more than a handful on this board who would be willing and able to have worthwhile political discussions. You just need to keep the trolls out of the thread.

laserlight
08-02-2006, 08:11 AM
We don't have enough police officers, if people knew that they could get away with crimes without being punished.
Shh... you could bring the whole show down with your lack of discretion.

GanglyLamb
08-02-2006, 08:33 AM
A vicious circle? And what can hold people back except examples of criminals being punished for commiting crimes. That is what holds us back here in North America. We don't have enough police officers, if people knew that they could get away with crimes without being punished.

Heh, well instead of letting official people take care of these problems, the people have started their own movement in Nigeria ( and I bet it wont be any different in other places ).

Vigilante groupes are popping up like mushrooms all over the place. The punishment for thieves is basically in 80% of the cases:

1) Find a tire of a car
2) Go to the nearest fuel station and get some litres of fuel
3) Go to the thief put the tire around his neck, pour some fuel over his body, take a match and light it up.

At least that is the common scenario for thieves in the south were Yoruba are dominant, in the North the Sharia law will deal with them in an appropriate way.

In the rural areas they would just take you to the swamps/bushes and kill you there.

That's why there is a constant curfew, depending where you are , in villages/town mostly 10 o clock, in cities like lagos it was 12 o clock. Whoever is seen on the streets after that curfew better has a good explanation, else you are not far from lying dead on the ground.

So that is what holds them back, not the police or any other official since they can be bribed, the vigilantes can't be bribed in such cases, since the vigilante is made of ordinary people struggling to survive. And they will certainly not let anyone disrupt their way to a better life, even if they are offered money, because they know that if they would accept it , their neighbour would deal with them.

siavoshkc
08-02-2006, 11:28 AM
>>The difference here in North America,...

You can't compare these African very poor countries with North America.

>>but all I know is people fear getting sued, which is something that people in the developing world do not fear

Why do you think so?

You don't know what poorty is. What can you do with a group of people, that 60% of them are doing illegal things just to survive? Think you are the president of Nigeria, and you are a good man(of course you are). What can you do? No exports, no agriculture and no industry. You can't have even enough prisons. And if it was like North America, that its people are making joke about suing (a thief sued the house owner because his leg was hitten by a table or a woman sued coffee shop owner because the coffee was hot), all people would be in prison. Who supports the cost?

Anyway, I never understood why African nations are like this. I thing 80% of UN money is going to be eaten by Africa.

GanglyLamb
08-02-2006, 02:34 PM
Anyway, I never understood why African nations are like this. I thing 80% of UN money is going to be eaten by Africa.

This evening in the news: Belgium will spend 25 million ( that will go to some UN funds ) on sanitation in Kinshasa ( Congo ). They showed something that used to be a canal , and a drainage system during the rainy season. Now it is being used as dump and has become an open sewage system.

Everytime initiatives like this are taken I wonder:

1) Are they just going to clean the canal ?
2) Are they going to give lectures to the people where to dump their dirt, and if necessary provide, dumpsters, and some system to clean these at a regular basis.

If they do 1 and 2 , both my thumbs up for UN and Belgium for donating the money and the delegation of work down there.

If they only do 1 then yes indeed 80% of UN fundings will be eaten by Africa , and it will be a trend that is only to continue in the future.

The voluntary work that I did in Nigeria was exactly what I am describing here. Although I didnt had a 25 million funds, I wanted to clean up parts of Lagos , especially areas like Ebute Meta, Sabo Yaba, Yaba , Ojota and all those other dirty place where the dirt is just stacked and dumped on the streets ...

My approach was, get together with all the big landlords that have a large amount of the buildings in one area, discuss this problem with them, see what they want to change about it. Since when an area is clean it will be only beneficial to them since more people will be keen on living there.

Normally I'd just ask the landlords to put one big dumpster in the compound, then every tenant would pay something like 5 Naira a week, combined this was enough to have the dirt removed by a person. ( there is no dumptruck that goes around in Lagos to collect the dirt - unless maybe in fancy parts like Ikoyi and Victoria Island , in the poorer parts only once a month a dumptruck comes by to pick up some stuff ).

Also apart from talking to the landlords I would talk to the tenants or let the landlord talk to them. I'd explain them that this dumpster is something to put your dirt in , and not to take parts of the dumpster away because of a friend that needs some iron ...
Since there used to be public dumspters , but welders from everywhere would just come and take piece by piece away to build a gate or whatever ...

As for you dont understand why african nations are like that. You should go and visit them, if you have not done yet. And live among and with the people for some time. It's the same as these politicians that go to some African country for a week, im sure they'll be staying in rich areas or at least in some nice hotels. Why not drop them with some random,common, previously screened, but therefore not upperclass family for that one week. Im sure they will get a better view of what is going on, its nice to hear lectures about " oh and this is not working out" or "this should be changed to that for the better of everyone". But rarely the opinion of these "everyone"s is hardly asked. And that's where I think that alot of NGO's come into place. Getting down with these people , see what lives with them, try to get to know their culture instead of trying to teach them your culture. ( for starters, listen to some african music, especially Fela Kuti, although its Yoruba mixed with Pidgin its understandable and lays out the problems very simple )

Anyway , there are alot of misconceptions by non Africans about Africa and vice versa as well.
And what im going to say next will be a thorn in the eye of many people:

We as western countries ought to be obliged , or at least feel obliged to help them out. It is mostly because of western countries that great African nations fell.
Before the colonist came, there were already borderlines established and a whole political system/ kingdoms or whatever.
There are numerous examples of this: Congo, Zimbabwe, Niger, Ghana etc etc ...
In one way or the other western nations have helped the demise of many of these once great nations/kingdoms.

If I say the above to people I get 95% of the time the answer:

"Forget about Africa it's a dead continent and whatever you do its a drop on a hot plate."

Should I forget and continue my luxury life and sit and wait while so many people are being infected by HIV simply because they don't know about it, while so many people starve to death while at the same time here food is being destroyed just to keep the price of one or two items up, while so many people live in inhumane conditions while im relaxing in front of my tv laughing my ass of with some comedy show....

I think that I myself as an individual must not forget about the continent!

twomers
08-02-2006, 03:12 PM
Dude, that's way too long! Get a sig like Mario F's, at least that way you appologise about it!!
Seriously though, I don't think I've ever had a post that long!

Interesting post though! How long were you there for? Who did you go with? What organis(z)ation?

siavoshkc
08-02-2006, 03:28 PM
Before the colonist came, there were already borderlines established and a whole political system/ kingdoms or whatever.

I am not agree with this. What political system?
In African countries only Egypt has an old history. None of them were rich in any portion of history. They never tried to solve their problems. They just like to make some groups, buy some weapon and fight each other. Always dealing with the worst diseases and spreading them in the world.


I have a question: Why they didn't help the demise of western countries? Do you know what I mean? They were weak and poor, always.


This evening in the news: Belgium will spend 25 million € ( that will go to some UN funds ) on sanitation in Kinshasa ( Congo ).

Just give me that money and I will pray for Africans A LOT.

twomers
08-02-2006, 03:32 PM
>> In African countries only Egypt has an old history.

... em .... sweeping generalisation there mate. Do you have proof?

siavoshkc
08-02-2006, 04:00 PM
My school history book.
And its a time to point something, USA school history books are just beautiful story books.

GanglyLamb
08-02-2006, 04:01 PM
Dude, that's way too long! Get a sig like Mario F's, at least that way you appologise about it!!

Interesting post though! How long were you there for? Who did you go with? What organis(z)ation?
Sorry for the long post but I just needed to get this out :).

Organisation: ICYE
Duration: 1 year.

Before I went there were like 150 candidates to go abroad with ICYE. After some weekends of information and selections we ended up with maybe 12 persons.

I had 2 introduction weeks first in Nigeria , to get to know some culture specific things, a quick Yoruba course so at least I'd be able to understand and speak some Yoruba.



I am not agree with this. What political system?

The Yoruba for instance had a whole system outlined by kingdoms, there were rules just like here in a democracy, although be it in their own way. But their own way does not imply a wrong way. It's not because I say that people should walk like monkeys that that is the right way. There are no right or wrong ways of culture, sure you yourself as an individual might find a cultural horrific because of their believs or whatever but that does not mean it is a wrong culture.



None of them were rich in any portion of history. They never tried to solve their problems. They just like to make some groups, buy some weapon and fight each other. Always dealing with the worst diseases and spreading them in the world.

You definately need to go and visit some poor countries look at their belongings of the past. Back then they were rich in their own way. Maybe not rich like us but rich for them. A dollar here means less then a dollar somewhere else, its the same.

As for the deseases, an ecosystem is in balance untill someone tries to change something, be it unwilling or unwillingly. In the case of colonist they themselves were the weight throwing the scale out of balance.

And about the fighting, we were no better at that time and we still are no better then they used to be. People sending their own children to fight a war that is not even theirs thousand miles from home, thats insanity at the highest level.

Yes they did fight with each other, but so do we at this time , where is the difference?

Also do not forget that in Nigeria there were alot of kingdoms before the colonist came. When the colonist decided where the borders of Nigeria should be, the borderlines included alot of etnical groups, not to talk about the variety of languages ( probably more then 100 in total ).

So in a country with this much of diversity how can you expect one to obey one rule all of a sudden when traditions and ways of living have been the same for hundred years.

But then again thats the human's nature, we want to categorize/structure as much as possible, you as a programmer should understand that fully. Why is there OO programming , why didnt we just stick with plain C. Creating structure in chaos is something humanity strives for. But rearranging an already in place structure with a completely different is never easy ( in IT thinking, transition from one system to another ).



Why they didn't help the demise of western countries? Do you know what I mean? They were weak and poor, always.

I'd suggest you look up , if you not know already , what kind of money lending stories/dramas there have been with African countries. As for being weak and poor , again the same, I can be rich without having a dime in my pocket.

They were rich by having their own system of trading things. Agriculture and the likes were already present even before the colonist came. These countries are blessed with gifts that most western countries don't have naturally and envy.

Natural resources like oil, diamonds or precious metals etc. We as western countries went there, to us these things mean nothing more then money and levelling up our ways of living.

And yes they were weak, weak against the firearms of the colonial powers, I've been to Badagry which is supposed to be the first place where slaves were taken from. If you see the drawings , the equipment and ways they used to handle these people ... yes they were weak.

And they are still weak right now, why?
Again the money lending dramas come up.
Just look at Congo , the first elections in over 40 years .... come on that's insane, and why, because some colonial power decided this area was one country, also again including different etnic groups and different languages.

There's a reason why there are Africans that insulted me when I was there. And I can't blame them, but I can also not be held responsible for the actions people of my country did 3 generations or more ago.
But I can be held responsible for the result/followup of what they did.

:edit:

Don't believe whatever you read, the best way to get to know something is to get in touch with the subject and surely don't rely on a sole source for information.
a search on google for "kingdoms nigeria" ended up at http://www.kingdomsofnigeria.com/ or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria
check the historical part. Better yet, go to the library and get a book about kingdoms in Africa.

And this is what I mean by:



Anyway , there are alot of misconceptions by non Africans about Africa and vice versa as well.

Mario F.
08-02-2006, 04:10 PM
In African countries only Egypt has an old history. None of them were rich in any portion of history. They never tried to solve their problems. They just like to make some groups, buy some weapon and fight each other. Always dealing with the worst diseases and spreading them in the world.

I'm really not sure how to deal with this statement. Especially the last sentence. I'm sure you are well educated enough to have said that in some joking manner. If so, I will smile at the joke with you.

As for the rest of your statement (the earliest bits)... You really need to learn about African history. You need to learn for instance, that among other things, big and important civilizations existed in Africa, that while not having spread past african borders, they were nonetheless rich both in culture and resources. This is particularly true of African regions known today as Ethiopia (the incredibly rich Aksum civilization), The Ghana and The Mali, The Great Zimbabwe, and most especially the Swahili Kingdoms that shadowed Egypt (both military and in resources) for the most part of their history and lived in Eastern Africa.

There are also some "unknown" civilizations that are only now being discovered in Africa. Some of which show incredible technology.

As you well know, only now is Africa being actually "discovered". Historians always favored Europe, the Americas and Egypt. Years of colonization didn't help to establish a scientific approach to the continent either. That is thankfully changing... and the findings may surprise us even more than they have already.

Richie T
08-02-2006, 07:33 PM
One of the things I hate about documentaries is the way that some of them
present some arbitrary information/opinion as a root cause for something.

I can't claim to know anything about African economics, but I would guess that
there are numerous factors other than living far inland which affect economy,
say past colonisation, lack of freedom of individuals (dictatorships), cultural
differences (wars with other nations, traditional living), and perhaps more, all
of which create an inhospitable climate. Consider the poverty trap -
governments that can't afford to run their country so they borrow from rich
countries, but war, corruption and poor investment mean that the money
is a short term fix, so the country becomes poorer.

I would guess that population desity in central Africa is far lower than in coastal
regions, primarily due to desert regions and rainforest, which result in small
populations is such places.

Edit: I also love the fact that a thread questioning whether topics such as these
should be discussed on this forum has become a full blown dialog on the political
and social status of Africa!

joeprogrammer
08-02-2006, 07:40 PM
>I don't know what you are on about!! Invisability?????
twomers, you have some of the best ideas. :)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

SlyMaelstrom
08-02-2006, 08:33 PM
>I don't know what you are on about!! Invisability?????
twomers, you have some of the best ideas. :)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Real programmers memorize their hex color codes. :) Just kidding... hehe. But seriously, I hate Macs... this is quite fun...

joeprogrammer
08-02-2006, 09:15 PM
Oh, now did I get it?

SlyMaelstrom
08-03-2006, 12:43 AM
I'll admit, I learn much more about world history from watching the History channel and Discovery channel than I did in my world history class in highschool. I don't know how broad my knowledge is currently, but I would doubt anything I would say I know is wrong. I don't think the History channel alters history for the benefit of entertainment. There is plenty of entertaining history out there. No need to add more.

I just hope one day our great-great-great-great-grand children can one day turn on the TV... or hologram room, or whatever... and see "The adventures of the Cboard as only the History Channel can bring you".

GanglyLamb
08-03-2006, 12:53 AM
GanglyLamb, I heard that the economic problem in Africa stems from the fact that the population does not live on the coast of Africa but lives inland, and this is due to the geography for varios reasons such as agriculture.


Hmm then Nigeria is on of the big exceptions along with Togo, Ghana and all the others that have some coastline, with over 10 million inhibatitans Lagos as a city that is directly near the sea .... with Ibadan with its huge population which is only a 2 hour drive from Lagos, with the Delta State, Cross - River state etc ...



In other words, since they do not establish coastal cities this affects trade. I heard this in some documentary but it was years ago, and I forget the economist involved but he was an authority of some sort who has been involved in the development of various economic systems.


Either this was a very bad documentary or you are very old :).

I'm not saying we should feel responsible for everything that goes on there.
When it doesn't rain, well then it doesn't rain.... desertification ... well maybe that can be our fault as well somewhere ... but thats very long fetched I guess... although there seems a direct link to global warming and desertification ...

Anyhow, drought and other "natural" things happen. At that point its not that we should help them out because of what happened during the colonial periods, no that one is called sympathy and not being indifferent for people starving. Since for all you know , you could have been born down there and you'd be the one suffering.

Now what Richie T says the "poverty trap" is so true, the borrow money, make wrong investments, they can't get a new loan in the old system since they went over the limits, so western countries create a new system allowing them to borrow more. Then early this year they said some debts were just cancelled....

Its a good thing. And again the same as with the UN sanitation programme in Kinshasa. Only cancelling debt will not help them in the long run. Cancellling their debts by removing the interest, and giving the rest of the "money" that would be used to cancel their debt to them under supervision would be better.

Let them finally take some right decisions, since they can't do this on their own , let someone else help them with it.

Here in Belgium every normal common person has acces to this social service, something called "debt negotiation" programme. Whatever, these nations should have something like this as well, a programme that would advise on what to do next, what to invest, etc etc...

If no one teached me how to write, then I'd come here and fill jibberish in this textbox....

If no one teached them how to decently do agriculture, do politics, control and run a nation .... how are they going to know. ( this is not a generalisation, there will be colonist nations that really helped their country on the way after abandoning it ).

How is it possible that in places where western people have gone , agriculture is limited to no irrigated lands and things like that. When while the westerners where there, agriculture was booming.

Just look at Zimbabwe to see the whole colonist leaving process but then in the near past and not 50 - 60 years ago. Zimbabwe's agriculture has collapsed since the westerners were forced to leave and taken away their grounds....



I also love the fact that a thread questioning whether topics such as these
should be discussed on this forum has become a full blown dialog on the political
and social status of Africa!


Yeah im just going to shut up, since I can ramble on forever probably :).

siavoshkc
08-03-2006, 01:56 AM
As for the rest of your statement (the earliest bits)... You really need to learn about African history. You need to learn for instance, that among other things, big and important civilizations existed in Africa, that while not having spread past african borders, they were nonetheless rich both in culture and resources. This is particularly true of African regions known today as Ethiopia (the incredibly rich Aksum civilization), The Ghana and The Mali, The Great Zimbabwe, and most especially the Swahili Kingdoms that shadowed Egypt (both military and in resources) for the most part of their history and lived in Eastern Africa.

Great Kingdom? The great kingdom means a rich man is governing other people. It is not a good civilization.
When you talk about history, you should come with proof. Proof is not some old jars here. The proof is the effect of that nations on each other. I live in a very old country, oldest maybe. We know there was a greece that we had some problems with it and sometimes we were in peace. It is not concluded by an old jar.
Unfortunatly western countries use to make beautiful stories about the history, instead of talking about what really has happend in the past.
Eric Vondeniken (not sure about spelling) explains how wrong conclusion can come from an old jar.

GanglyLamb
08-03-2006, 02:47 AM
When you talk about history, you should come with proof. Proof is not some old jars here.

Well we surely cant "come with proof" by telling it to you. Get down to Africa and visit some museums, YES they do have that over there as well. When you get to these museums take the time to read/watch everything and contemplate. Yes I just wrote "read"... there are old texts to be found in these museums as well, and they are probably already translated for you into english or french since most of these African countries have french or english as official language. ( then I talk about, written tales, stories, and yes even peace treaties with other kingdoms :-o )

There is more then just a couple of jars down in Africa ....

I feel very sorry for you that I have to quote myself again.



Anyway , there are alot of misconceptions by non Africans about Africa and vice versa as well.


Admitted, it's not a fairly cheap "come with proof" but at least you'll be convinced that there were great civilizations in the past down there. The world is bigger then you think, get out of your shell and start exploring this globe.

siavoshkc
08-03-2006, 03:58 AM
Admitted, it's not a fairly cheap "come with proof" but at least you'll be convinced that there were great civilizations in the past down there. The world is bigger then you think, get out of your shell and start exploring this globe.

Just give me that UN money, I'll buy an airplane ticket.

[edit]
Anyway I think it really doesn't matter if they had advanced civilization in the very past or not.

Mario F.
08-03-2006, 04:41 AM
If it doesn't matter, why did you brought up the subject?

I lived in Angola for 4 years in work, btw. And I always had a mild interest in ancient civilizations. Not Greek or Roman, but... ancient. Africa harbors a rich history that you need only to explore from text books, to understand what I am going on about. Even before your precious Persian Empire, Africa had seen already kingdoms and empires come and gone.

As for the current state of affair, it is my take the situation is mixed. We are talking about countries that for the most part have only enjoyed half a century of indepence. Of countries that were decolonized abruptly leaving the decision to who would run them to the ethnically divided societies. Of countries that were redrawn with a ruler after the 1st world war. Of countries that have to face the powerful government supported agriculture of the western countries effectively making African products more expensive in the international market, and of countries that are ruled by dictators democratically ellected. Yes... the contradiction of the late 20th century.

There is nothing wrong in Africa that we Europeans haven't brought them. Centuries after Centuries of slavery, unfair trade, resource plundering and border engineering with no regard to the continent history and its ethnical differences.

And yet, Siav, we are talking of the most rich and abundant continent in the world. Make no mistake. We are talking of the oldest continent in the world. Where human history began. So go to a good library, grab those books and marvel at the amazing history of this continent that had human beings living in cities, contrary to popular belief, way before the Persian Empire, way before Mesopotamia.

siavoshkc
08-03-2006, 08:14 AM
Even before your precious Persian Empire, Africa had seen already kingdoms and empires come and gone.

Persian Empire was not the first empire in Iran.


There is nothing wrong in Africa that we Europeans haven't brought them. Centuries after Centuries of slavery, unfair trade, resource plundering and border engineering with no regard to the continent history and its ethnical differences.

Of course Europeans have brought many bad things to many places. But you can't say all poorty of Africans is because of this.


And yet, Siav, we are talking of the most rich and abundant continent in the world. Make no mistake. We are talking of the oldest continent in the world. Where human history began. So go to a good library, grab those books and marvel at the amazing history of this continent that had human beings living in cities, contrary to popular belief, way before the Persian Empire, way before Mesopotamia.

Amazing history or amazing story? These nation are more older that can have any effect of their current situation.

[edit]
It is really not important that who is the oldest.

twomers
08-03-2006, 08:52 AM
>>Real programmers memorize their hex color codes. Just kidding... hehe. But seriously, I hate Macs... this is quite fun...
Haha. I try to average it out at one per post, or two.#f1f1f1

>>twomers, you have some of the best ideas. :)
Thank you :) Some credit goes to dwks though. Only some, but I'll get it back!!

>> When you talk about history, you should come with proof. Proof is not some old jars here.
Em, look at my response (http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showpost.php?p=578418&postcount=38) to you (http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showpost.php?p=578413&postcount=37) first!!!

>> Admitted, it's not a fairly cheap "come with proof" ...
Like GanglyLamb has been in space at least once! Even on the moon! But I think it was a fake, cause he took off his face mask!