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Davros
02-24-2006, 07:34 AM
Was wondering...

Is is possible to make money from playing on-line poker? Could I not bring some programming skills to bear to give me an edge?

Any thoughts...

SlyMaelstrom
02-24-2006, 07:57 AM
No, you can't. They have protections on those sorts of things. You also have to sign various agreements when you enter money torneys that could get you in some legal trouble if you were caught. By the way, botting for malicious purposes are against forum rules, so I'd rather not get into this discussion. ;)

Davros
02-24-2006, 08:01 AM
>botting for malicious purposes are against forum rules

WTF?


Please don't accuse me of acting with malicious purposes. I think you misunderstood my post.


>so I'd rather not get into this discussion.

So why reply?

MadCow257
02-24-2006, 08:07 AM
If you live in the US, online poker is illegal right?

Davros
02-24-2006, 08:13 AM
>If you live in the US, online poker is illegal right?

Ahhh. I see.

I don't live in the US. Here it is popular. Daily Newspapers are running campaigns to get people to play on-line poker.

Thought it would be a good general topic. You know, harmless things could be said like, "...but there is no real leverage in working out the stats for this or that", "or Black Jack would be better than Poker". Yadda yadda.

However, I'm getting a bad feeling. Forget it in that case.

SlyMaelstrom
02-24-2006, 08:18 AM
If you're implying that your programming skill would give you an edge in online poker in anyway besides writing a program to play the poker for you, then no it won't. All the top players on the poker tours are mathematicians, accountants, and any other career you can think of that has to do with cramming numbers and odds. It's simply required to be at the top. There's no edge there.

If you want to be a good poker player, you need quick thinking, a straight face, and most importantly, patience.

Also, the legality issues in the US with Online Gambling is still in the grey area, right now. I don't quite think they can arrest you for it.

Davros
02-24-2006, 08:21 AM
>besides writing a program to play the poker for you, then no it won't

Yeh that's what I had in mind. Cos I'm crap at card games.

SlyMaelstrom
02-24-2006, 08:26 AM
>besides writing a program to play the poker for you, then no it won't

Yeh that's what I had in mind. Cos I'm crap at card games.

Think it hasn't been done 1000s of times? Google the phrase "Poker Bots" they've been made, used, and banned... alot.

Davros
02-24-2006, 08:34 AM
>If you want to be a good poker player, you need quick thinking, a straight face, and most importantly, patience.

LOL! Why a straight face? On-line remember?


>Think it hasn't been done 1000s of times?

Wot? You mean I'm not the first to think of it. Dammn!

Seriously though, if I'd have thought I'd come up with a sure fire way to make millions, I wouldn't have posted it here. :)

Thanks for replying SlyMaelstrom. Sorry for any misunderstanding earlier.

Govtcheez
02-24-2006, 08:43 AM
If you live in the US, online poker is illegal right?
No. I play online poker all the time.

Sang-drax
02-24-2006, 09:28 AM
If you live in the US, online poker is illegal right?
What!? That was unexpected! Do you live in the US? Hmm, I guess I'd rather believe Govt on this one.

I think it would be possible to make money using bots in online poker, but as has been said, it's not allowed. But the only(?) way to protect themselves against that would be to have the players answer questions from time to time, so I guess it's feasible.

Perspective
02-24-2006, 10:06 AM
>. But the only(?) way to protect themselves against that would be to have the players answer questions from time to time, so I guess it's feasible.

Actaully they monitor the activities and choices of players over time and have apps that detect possible bots. The games department at the University of Alberta does research on poker playing I remember this being mentioned in a lecture once.

Dagger
02-24-2006, 10:26 AM
Hmmmm, well could they detect a program that gives you suggestions?
If you're playing and the program is just telling you what to do, that's okay, right?

Davros
02-24-2006, 10:34 AM
>If you're playing and the program is just telling you what to do, that's okay, right?

That was my original thinking... a little app which flashes "FOLD" or "GO FOR IT". I never mentioned anything about bots.

Dagger
02-24-2006, 10:52 AM
That was my original thinking... a little app which flashes "FOLD" or "GO FOR IT". I never mentioned anything about bots.

Yes you did.


>besides writing a program to play the poker for you, then no it won't

Yeh that's what I had in mind. Cos I'm crap at card games.

Govtcheez
02-24-2006, 11:07 AM
> That was my original thinking... a little app which flashes "FOLD" or "GO FOR IT". I never mentioned anything about bots.

It takes very little math to tell you what the odds are. There are also programs available to tell you your odds given what's in your hand, how many people are in the game, what's on the table, etc. You don't have to write your own.

Please don't rip off the rest of us that are just trying to have a good time playing online, though.

IfYouSaySo
02-24-2006, 11:51 AM
Actually I thought Sly was the one who assumed that he meant bots, but actually he just said using programming skills to advantage. Anyway there are probably situations where the odds are good but it still might not be a good idea to call. Take the case of a 51% (or even 60%) advantage, but you have to go all-in to get it. And is the program going to tell you when to raise? Is it going to tell you that a player has folded every time he's been raised, and so you should raise to figure out where he's at (because if he calls you're probably busted, and most of the time you figure to win anyway because he's going to fold)? There's so much to this (and I suck at poker), that I really doubt that an odds program is going to help much. You can memorize the odds without much difficulty...but I bet that you couldn't write a program that plays poker well unless you're a killer poker player anyway. And if you're a killer poker player, why do you need the program? The answer probably is that you want it to be a bot, that will log on to many poker servers at once, so you can maximize the number of hands played per hour.

Davros
02-24-2006, 12:05 PM
Even I did write a bot, I don't think I would want to leave it unattended to gamble with my money. In any case, I could see why people may get upset if they thought they were playing against a human when they were playing against a bot.

I'm not ripping anyone off and I'm not sure I understand the paranoia on this topic.

Think I'll call it a day here.

IfYouSaySo
02-24-2006, 12:36 PM
I could care less what you do. If someone's playing poker online, they deserve what they get (there's bigger problems than bots when it comes to online poker...). But the same goes for you--if you write a poker bot (not saying that's what you're intending), I think it's trickier and more complicated than you might think. And it may turn out to be an even better way to throw away money than if you just played yourself.

On the other hand, writing a program that will play poker, just for the challenge (and it IS a challenge) would be a great project. And if you can get it to play in an online play money table, so much the better.

Thantos
02-24-2006, 04:25 PM
No. I play online poker all the time.
Gambling online is currently illegal according to the federal government. They say it violates some law against taking bets over the telephone lines. This is why all of the legit gambling sites are not based in the US.

Though I wouldn't be worried about them busting down your door any time soon.

Govtcheez
02-25-2006, 09:11 AM
> If someone's playing poker online, they deserve what they get

:rolleyes:

> They say it violates some law against taking bets over the telephone lines.

There are no telephone lines involved in me playing.

Thantos
02-25-2006, 10:26 PM
Yes there are Cheez. Remember I worked in telecommunications while in the Marines. Unless 100% of the line from your house to the game server was fiber you are probably going over a telephone line or trunk at some point or another. And even if it was fiber all the way its probably being routed through a switch at some point.

Heck we had some trunks that were data only, never touched our switch's electronics but still went over our copper lines and went through the cable heads inside the switch room.

novacain
02-26-2006, 08:51 PM
The bots are designed to be played in addition to your own hand in the same game ie you + your bots v the rest

This means you see more cards than your opponents and you can better calculate the odds on each hand. This can be a huge advantage.
In some "hold 'em" style games you could even fold your worst hands before they start to cost anything.


>>SlyMaelstrom>>All the top players on the poker tours are mathematicians, accountants, and any other career you can think of that has to do with cramming numbers and odds.

The current World Poker Camp is a chiropractor...

Don't forget casino staff as well.

SlyMaelstrom
02-26-2006, 08:59 PM
The current World Poker Camp is a chiropractor...

Yeah exactly....

The hip bone 'a goes to the... leg bone... the leg bone goes to the... foot bone... the foot bone cracks in a dozen places... and that's how I relieve the pain.

Those guys deal with numbers all the time. But anyway, if you look at the list of the top players, a large percentage of them deal with calculations everyday.

mabufo
02-26-2006, 09:20 PM
Idea: Get a real job.

jwenting
02-27-2006, 01:52 AM
On average the only people making money from gambling are the casinos (and now gambling websites).
With a payout of only a few percent of intake the chances of making a winning are stacked against you.
You may win a hand or two (in fact many of the websites may be stacked to cheat to let you win a few hands once in a while just to keep you spending more, as do good dealers on the tables (*)) but in the end just about everyone looses bigtime.

(*) yes, it's easy to do, especially in software programs, to make sure a specific hand turns up when you control the cards.

Govtcheez
02-27-2006, 10:32 AM
> Yes there are Cheez.

That's enlightening - I wasn't aware of that.

novacain
02-27-2006, 06:43 PM
>>in fact many of the websites may be stacked to cheat to let you win a few hands once in a while just to keep you spending more, as do good dealers on the tables

Casino dealers do not have any control over the outcome of any of the games.

None of the casinos I worked at ever rigged a game.

The casinos did not have to, there are plenty of punters willing to lose their cash and not very many (none realy) who know when to leave with the casinos cash.

Govtcheez
02-27-2006, 07:17 PM
> who know when to leave with the casinos cash.

Even the other players help with this. In real life, if you take down a couple big pots, the other players will rag you so they can try and get their money back from you.

jwenting
02-28-2006, 01:14 AM
Casinos don't have to rig games like computer software can. Decks can be shuffled in such a way that the dealer knows pretty much in advance which cards will turn up for example.
So in case of human dealers I'm not talking about actual cheating, no cards up the dealer's sleeve and stuff like that. If a casino were to do that they'd soon face criminal charges and civil lawsuits both.

novacain
02-28-2006, 02:30 AM
>>Decks can be shuffled in such a way that the dealer knows pretty much in advance which cards will turn up for example.

Only in the movies.

All poker tables use a shemi shuffle and then at least a double riffle. No way to track through that and I have tried.

Besides why would croupiers care? Its not our money, we don't get more for winning. If you can take tips (not in Aussie casinos) then you actually get more for losing.....

My objective was to lose as much of the casinos money as possible and I told the punters that.

I have seen scams where a whole shoe (eight decks) was substituted by a punter and a corrupt dealer. Amazing to watch the video.

Teams of 'past posters' and the 'sticky palm' are very common.

Past post is to bet after the outcome, usually someone else distracts the dealer.

The sticky palm is where you put glue in your palm. Then you lean over the table to place a low value bet (next to a high value chip) and stick the high value chip to your palm. The glue means you do not look like you have anything in your hand.