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View Full Version : Java as a Main Language in College Won't Do Good



alphaoide
12-29-2005, 03:42 PM
I know it's an old issue, but his argument is an enjoyable read.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

sean
12-29-2005, 04:38 PM
and their skills are useless

And Java is so useful for maintaining mainframe databases.

sean
12-29-2005, 06:30 PM
I was being sarcastic. If you think the kind of stuff they teach at MIT is useless, I'm going to laugh when you find out how much companies are willing to pay for someone who can maintain their programs written in System 370.

sean
12-29-2005, 06:41 PM
What are you talking about? One second you're saying that skills from MIT are useless and now you're saying "each to his own" if you think BASIC is the greatest language?


The only thing that matters is who gets the money.

Compare average salaries for a System 370 programmer and a Java programmer. Now I'm not saying Java shouldn't be taught in college and that System 370 is the end-all-be-all, but it's a pretty crazy statement that skills from MIT are useless, that's all I'm saying - even if it was just an exaggeration.

sean
12-29-2005, 07:08 PM
According to Salary.com


The median expected salary for a typical Java Developer in the United States is $76,256.


The median expected salary for a typical Systems Engineering UNIX/NT Manager in the United States is $87,227.

Several places you could classify a System 370 programmer - the specific company I'm thinking of would use it closest to the above description. You could also go for plain "Mainframe Programmer", in which the general average is about that of Java programmer - you can be sure System 370 programmers would be in the very top of that pay scale.

Not as good as I thought - but still - you're WAY off of useless there.

sean
12-29-2005, 07:11 PM
Alright I've totally lost your point here...

sean
12-29-2005, 07:15 PM
And how does that relate to one language being more useful than another?

sean
12-29-2005, 07:34 PM
But you wouldn't be able to tell from their salaries, right?

And MIT probably teaches you how to edit posts.

Edit: Like this...

Now what kind of idiot hires people who have degrees with nothing to do with what you're working on? That is completely irrelevant. Java programmers are geared more towards writing applications. The kind of people who go to MIT are probably more interested in research and more scientific computing. If you're saying an MIT degree is useless for doing the same thing as a regular Java programmer, than of course, but in the field of Computer Science and IT in general, you're being completely ridiculous.

Do you just like saying "big business" and "small team" or what?

sean
12-29-2005, 07:45 PM
The last laugh

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1997/jobs.html

There goes your "inability to lead in business" theory.


Wayne M. Ayers, chief economist of BankBoston, said, "In a national economy that is increasingly emphasizing innovation, these findings extend our understanding of how MIT has been instrumental in generating new businesses nationwide.

Oh, and your belief that MIT students are gullible and unable to think for themselves.

sean
12-29-2005, 07:50 PM
Well then I guess I better go to MIT. I want to be on their side when the robots take over the world and steal all the jobs from third world countries.

IfYouSaySo
12-29-2005, 07:58 PM
Oh! I get it! If I want to make millions (or at least my first million, which is all that really matters), I need to form my own business--and not work for someone else! Wow, I never realized that by taking more risk the rewards could be higher.

Ok, sarcasm aside, I think most programmers have at least some aspiration to start their own business with some product that they've written. It would make an interesting poll at least, and also interesting to see how many followed through with it, and how many were "successful"--whatever that is.

Govtcheez
12-29-2005, 08:22 PM
Hey Dean, what's up? Enjoying your return?

JaWiB
12-29-2005, 08:44 PM
Something about those double and triple posts does seem familiar...

nvoigt
12-30-2005, 01:52 AM
What kind of thread is this ? Someone flunked the MIT acceptance test ?

valis
12-30-2005, 03:30 AM
I'm pretty sure I should go write an application in rpg now, my lack of proficiency in it is a good indication a company will pay me more.

Too bad he didn't graduate from some other school so he could think for himself and orbitz would actually be succesful, no one uses it right? >_>
http://www.franz.com/success/customer_apps/data_mining/itastory.lhtml

edit: also I'm pretty sure ai takes a lot of unique and abstract thought.

Fordy
12-30-2005, 03:50 AM
Hey Dean, what's up? Enjoying your return?

You read my mind.

tCrawford
12-30-2005, 11:24 AM
And how does that relate to one language being more useful than another?


I second that.

7smurfs
12-30-2005, 03:36 PM
This has to be the strangest thread I have ever read.


EDIT: And I want to know what type of college doesn't teach what a pointer is, or only how to use Java. Come on, if I wanted to learn how to use a single langauge I'd buy a book and save myself the tens of thousands of dollars.

CompiledMonkey
12-30-2005, 11:28 PM
Wow, I wish all of that garbage would be removed so we could have a decent conversation on the topic.

Personally, I agree on many parts of this article. I do feel like many schools "dumb down" their programs somewhat for business reasons. Lets face it, a University is still a business, and they're in it for money on many levels. If they don't have students, their budget goes down and can result in long term effects, so they have to cater to the students in many ways. Another downfall is the local University wanting to build relationships with local companies and recruiting firms. They think if they are all buddy-buddy with these people that it will help them at some point. So they tailor some of their coursework to these new found relationships. Quite a sad state of affairs if you ask me.

alphaoide
12-31-2005, 12:06 AM
Another downfall is the local University wanting to build relationships with local companies and recruiting firms. They think if they are all buddy-buddy with these people that it will help them at some point. So they tailor some of their coursework to these new found relationships. Quite a sad state of affairs if you ask me.

Heh, there's probably much truth in that. Many companies around my school use C/C++ (e.g. They're in the field of defense, aviation, system, etc). And those companies have been actively coming down to our campus recruiting.

Now I know why they made take that ADA class.

IfYouSaySo
12-31-2005, 11:36 PM
The school I went to had a lot of Aerospace companies near it, so we didn't have an option of which science to take. It was Physics I and II for everyone. Many schools let you choose between Biology, Chemistry, Physics, or even Geology.

I also think the dumbing down takes place because of dumb or lazy professors. There is also a movement towards doing whole lectures with Powerpoint slides. And don't bother trying to write that down, the slides are available for download. The problem is, most people actually learn by writing the material down on paper. It also keeps you from spacing out too much in class. And if the professor is writing the notes or code or whatever on the board, you're pretty much guaranteed that they won't move faster than you can write the material down. It's all unfortunate. There are still a few good professors out there, but really the number is shrinking I think. Or maybe it was never a very big number in the first place...

bithub
12-31-2005, 11:47 PM
Another downfall is the local University wanting to build relationships with local companies and recruiting firms. They think if they are all buddy-buddy with these people that it will help them at some point. So they tailor some of their coursework to these new found relationships. Quite a sad state of affairs if you ask me.Are you serious?? You realize that the reason universities build good relationships with those companies is so that they hire their graduates! You do want a job after you graduate.... right?

CompiledMonkey
01-01-2006, 12:03 AM
Are you serious?? You realize that the reason universities build good relationships with those companies is so that they hire their graduates! You do want a job after you graduate.... right?

I had a job well before I graduated. And yes, I do understand the reason companies do this, but not why you think it's ok for Universities to do this. For computer science, you need to be learning COMPUTER SCIENCE. Not something specific to your local area. If you want specific, go to ECPI. You'll have a job after you graduate that will get you 5 years down the road. Then, the next hot technology comes and you lose your job because you can't adapt.

alphaoide
01-01-2006, 10:02 AM
I had a job well before I graduated. And yes, I do understand the reason companies do this, but not why you think it's ok for Universities to do this. For computer science, you need to be learning COMPUTER SCIENCE. Not something specific to your local area. If you want specific, go to ECPI. You'll have a job after you graduate that will get you 5 years down the road. Then, the next hot technology comes and you lose your job because you can't adapt.

So true (again). I have only one course in ASP.NET/C# but that's what my current job is in.