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Queatrix
11-07-2005, 12:05 PM
I have a friend who thinks he knows more about computers than me, even though he knows I am a programmer. He is the average user who thinks programming is a click-and-drag kit that you buy (like for some web designing), and that you're an advanced user if you just know that Windows Explorer exists.

Just curious, but does anyone else know people like this?

moi
11-07-2005, 12:07 PM
and that you're an advanced user if you just know that Windows Explorer exists.


Considering the average user competency level, I'd have to concede his point.

ober
11-07-2005, 12:08 PM
HAHA That's like asking if anyone else here knows someone that thinks the sky is blue. ;)

prog-bman
11-07-2005, 04:08 PM
Well I know one fact. I know more than you :).

major_small
11-07-2005, 04:25 PM
Well, in this case you probably do know more about computers than he does, but just keep this in mind: programming is just one (albeit big) aspect of computing. There are alot of things that programmers don't need to know about computers... for example, you can very easily program a computer and not know how to put one together.

jmd15
11-07-2005, 05:46 PM
I don't know anyone like this.... however I know a kid that thinks he knows a lot about computers because he puts in new hard drives into Xboxes, and "mods" them(which consists of putting files onto the Xbox's new hard drive before inserting it). I agree with you major_small that is just what I'm thinking. Like people that work at a PC Outlet, they might know more about computers than you, not in the fact they are programmers(and they might be as a hobbyist) but that they know computers inside and out. Still programming does give you a big leg up, since programming is a big aspect of computers. It also can help teach you about the other aspects, such as the Internet. Doing some network programming helps you understand protocol and how it all works. I do not boast about my computer knowledge because than I get accused of being a hacker. So to people I just met I let them find out about my love of computers on their own(which usually takes about an hour when they run into one of my loud-mouthed friends).

NOTE:
Remember in some small cities/towns such as mine, you are considered a "computer genius" if you can make nice looking powerpoints and websites....USING FRONTPAGE!!?!?!? How did I get stuck in this incompetent town......

gcn_zelda
11-07-2005, 05:51 PM
Being called a "hacker" isn't necessarily an accusation. It can merely be a title.

Hacker @ Dictionary.com:

One who is proficient at using or programming a computer; a computer buff.

jmd15
11-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Yes, but my town is smallish and technologically low. The word hacker to them instantly means: Someone who breaks into computer systems....

gcn_zelda
11-07-2005, 05:59 PM
Gotcha.

SMurf
11-07-2005, 06:05 PM
Well then, when someone in your town forgets their XP Home password, you can break into it for them. :p

Kids are brilliant like that though. I was pretty cocky when I was younger, knew my Atari ST "inside out" (although didn't properly program for it). It wasn't that I boasted about my knowledge, more that I could talk forever about that beautiful GEM desktop that loaded instantly... :o

(ahem) But kids these days have it slightly easier; there is only one platform worth borthering with. I've never met a Mac expert, so I assume they're extinct. ;)

jmd15
11-07-2005, 06:32 PM
Lol, I have never heard of an Atari ST so you must outdate me by a good few years(or more) ;) . I have only used a Mac once in my whole life, and I remember the desktop was similar to what you might see a Linux desktop look like. It of course did not have the built in compilers and all that good stuff. Didn't like it much but not too hard to use. Smurf, if one of my friends did forget their password, they would almost undoubtedly ask me, and I most likely would be able to either: pull it out of a list I already have, guess it, or get it somehow....

mrafcho001
11-07-2005, 07:42 PM
I don't know anyone like this.... however I know a kid that thinks he knows a lot about computers because he puts in new hard drives into Xboxes, and "mods" them(which consists of putting files onto the Xbox's new hard drive before inserting it). I agree with you major_small that is just what I'm thinking. Like people that work at a PC Outlet, they might know more about computers than you, not in the fact they are programmers(and they might be as a hobbyist) but that they know computers inside and out. Still programming does give you a big leg up, since programming is a big aspect of computers. It also can help teach you about the other aspects, such as the Internet. Doing some network programming helps you understand protocol and how it all works. I do not boast about my computer knowledge because than I get accused of being a hacker. So to people I just met I let them find out about my love of computers on their own(which usually takes about an hour when they run into one of my loud-mouthed friends).

NOTE:
Remember in some small cities/towns such as mine, you are considered a "computer genius" if you can make nice looking powerpoints and websites....USING FRONTPAGE!!?!?!? How did I get stuck in this incompetent town......


I know what you mean. Its the same way in my school/town too. Basicly here a computer genius is someone who can use Word/Frontpage/PowerPoint well. Anything beyond that is like "hackerish". Some of my friends though that programming was, like you said, drag-and-drop. So he wanted to learn how to program... Took him only 8 minutes and 28 seconds before he said that he doesnt wanna learn it anymore (I actualy timed it).

A lot of people in my school think they know a lot about computer when they can browse the system with Windows Explorer and open files with notepad and screw them up. And if you ever try to explain to them how something really works they just dont listen and ignore you.

Even my computer applications teacher sucks, he doesnt know anything besides speadsheets, word, and frontpage. He was surprised that i knew HTML. The only way he knows how to fix problems is restarting. (The systems at my school have some auto restore thingy at boot, so basicaly all settings are reset, or something).

Jeremy G
11-07-2005, 07:58 PM
I have a friend who thinks he knows more about computers than me, even though he knows I am a programmer. He is the average user who thinks programming is a click-and-drag kit that you buy (like for some web designing), and that you're an advanced user if you just know that Windows Explorer exists.

Just curious, but does anyone else know people like this?


Just because you are a programmer doesn't mean you know a lot about computers. It just means you know a programming language.

Like, how much do you know about digital design? If you think I mean graphics you are on the wrong train of thought.
And Gates, Not Gates, Bus Lines, Jk Flip Flops, etc etc?
How much do you know about networking? About Subnet Mask and Subnetting?

How much do you know about setting up hardware? Resolving IRQ conflicts, optimizing bios, upgrade your flashware? etc.

All I'm saying, is there is a LOT to know about computers and you can't judge yourself to be the winner just because you can program.

jmd15
11-07-2005, 08:14 PM
I try to know(or get into) most aspects of computers, the only thing I'm not into is graphics design. I'm not an artist, I'm a logical thinker. Stick me with a paintbrush and out will come some painted notes on math and code. Art is not my thing. I have set up hardware, played with networking and security(maybe a bit too much ;) ), programming(the most), electronics(a bit), and the list goes on. What really just makes me mad is when your advanced computer skills come in handy(programming in this example) and so you let them know you can help them. Then that person just thinks that you are just as good as the next guy(the next guy being some average user with knowledge of how to open and use frontpage). I'm in this youth thing, and there is this kid who is their "computer person", and he is way below my level but I'm still treated as discardable second best.

Queatrix
11-07-2005, 09:43 PM
Just because you are a programmer doesn't mean you know a lot about computers. It just means you know a programming language.

Like, how much do you know about digital design? If you think I mean graphics you are on the wrong train of thought.
And Gates, Not Gates, Bus Lines, Jk Flip Flops, etc etc?
How much do you know about networking? About Subnet Mask and Subnetting?

How much do you know about setting up hardware? Resolving IRQ conflicts, optimizing bios, upgrade your flashware? etc.

All I'm saying, is there is a LOT to know about computers and you can't judge yourself to be the winner just because you can program.

I haven't gotten to Digital Design yet, infact, I haven't gotten to many places yet, being only 14 I only know so much. I have explored the Windows OS in side and out. I can learn how to use any program VERY quickly. (Doubt it counts.) I have never had to use that 'help' thing before, I hardly know what it looks like. I know HTML and am learning JS, which the average would use Frontpage or an equivalent. My friend uses somthing called HotDog to build web pages. My Grandfather likes to call himself a Web Master, but he uses Fontpage. When I started to tell him a couple months ago about learning programing, he said "come back to me when you can make a horse & buggy go across the screen". (That was a -to me- basic thing he did on a web page and was real proud of.) So jmd15, I'm in the same boat.

FuelCap
11-08-2005, 12:01 AM
My friend uses somthing called HotDog to build web pages.

That is so sad... HTML is the freaking most easy languages[scripting] to learn.

Jeremy G
11-08-2005, 12:12 AM
That is so sad... HTML is the freaking most easy languages[scripting] to learn.


HTML isn't a scripting language, its a mark-up language.


Guess it isn't so easy after all?




I only pointed it out because its a common mis-conception.

Thantos
11-08-2005, 12:14 AM
Having seen quite a few of your programming related posts I wouldn't tout your programming skills as a measure of your computer skills.


I have never had to use that 'help' thing before, I hardly know what it looks like
Hate to tell you but this isn't a plus. I'd take someone who knows how to use their resources to find an answer over someone who can fiddle with the system until they figure out a way. I'd do that any day of the week and twice on sundayss.

VirtualAce
11-08-2005, 12:22 AM
I think a programmer should know more than the guys at Best Buy who put them together. I'm A+ certified and I'm a programmer and it's my opinion that a programmer should know the ins and outs of their computer system. Especially if you are going to program games. Intimate knowledge of the hardware is essential, not just knowledge of game design. Even though drivers have made this easier, it is not an excuse to be lazy. Often times designers and software engineers point out errors to the driver engineers who then address the issue with a patch in the driver. So the two are not separated by much. And if you understand assembly language then you will understand that the algos in software can then be put into hardware and vice versa. You can't program it if you don't know how it works. You might be able to hammer out something that 'works' but to really program the system and utilize the hardware and CPU to its fullest I feel you need more knowledge than just a couple of C++ courses.

Language is the paint brush and hardware is the canvas.

Oh and I've seen a lot of people like that. Just browse the boards here and you will see them.



I want to program a Win32 app but I don't know C++ or Win32. Please help.




I want to make a game but I don't want to read a lot of books or do a lot of research. I also want to use an existing library so I can avoid the low level DirectX/OpenGL stuff. K thx.




I'm a topper in my class but I can't for the life of me figure out how to write a program that averages grades. Please help.

They are everywhere.

novacain
11-08-2005, 03:18 AM
"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde

I thought I knew alot about computers after ten years commercial experience building systems and five years commercial experience programming. I don't count any non commercial experience, I have another 15 years of that.

Then I meet a tech who showed me the actual 'ones' and 'zeros' passing through the BUS of a computer on an oscilliscope

Soon you realise how much more there is to learn......

jmd15
11-08-2005, 05:54 AM
I think a programmer should know more than the guys at Best Buy who put them together.
I think that most programmers do know more than someone at Best Buy, but what I was trying to point out was that there are people who may not be able to program, but can know more about computers than a programmer. Although, a lot of times if they get into computers that much, they will start doing a little programming as well.

BobMcGee123
11-08-2005, 06:23 AM
Hate to tell you but this isn't a plus. I'd take someone who knows how to use their resources to find an answer over someone who can fiddle with the system until they figure out a way. I'd do that any day of the week and twice on sundayss.

I think I agree with this more than anything posted thusfar.


I remember all through high school I would use computer lab time to write little 3D computer games. Very often, the hardest things to write granted me almost no respect due to their obscure nature, but the relatively easy stuff that simply produced pretty graphics made my comrades nearly poop themselves because it looked pretty.

Queatrix
11-08-2005, 12:04 PM
As I said, I am only 14, so I know I have gobs more to learn, and that to a computer guru I might not be very advanced at all. But on the other hand, compared to the average, I am.

FuelCap
11-08-2005, 02:03 PM
HTML isn't a scripting language, its a mark-up language.


Guess it isn't so easy after all?




I only pointed it out because its a common mis-conception.

Oeps sorry...

Govtcheez
11-08-2005, 02:11 PM
Your friend sounds like a manager, and is therefore WAY smarter than you.

BobMcGee123
11-08-2005, 02:11 PM
As I said, I am only 14, so I know I have gobs more to learn

Understanding this is a very good attribute. Just that honest admission alone probably puts you ahead by quite a bit.

EDIT:


Your friend sounds like a manager, and is therefore WAY smarter than you.

I'm going to cut my pinky off and eat it now. Just because you said that. Subsequently, I hate you.

rockytriton
11-08-2005, 02:19 PM
I work with some people who are programmers (some c, some java, some cobol, etc) who don't know the slightest thing about the operating system they use. This one guy, for instance, he has been doing C for about 15 years, he still doesn't know he uses a multi-tasking operating system. When he checks his email, he closes the window he's looking at, then when he goes to visual studio, he closes his email client. Everything with him is one window at a time open and maximized.

BobMcGee123
11-08-2005, 02:25 PM
What? Because he only has one application running at a time, he doesn't know his operating system is capable of multi-tasking...I think you're making a bit of an extrapolation here.

rockytriton
11-08-2005, 02:28 PM
of course I am. The point is, just because he's a programmer, doesn't mean he knows how to use the computer efficiently. He has 2 gigs of RAM and 3 Ghz processor, yet he still opens and closes a new program instead of just opening another instance. We have several projects, if he needs to build two of them, he opens VS, builds it, closes VS, opens another instance of VS, opens the next project, builds it, etc.

jmd15
11-08-2005, 02:30 PM
Maybe that's just a bad habit from when he had to use a slow computer.

BobMcGee123
11-08-2005, 03:01 PM
Maybe you're just a vestige from when god used a slow computer


OWNED.

jmd15
11-08-2005, 04:03 PM
As moronic as your statement was, I can't help but pity you for thinking you "OWNED" me.

nickname_changed
11-08-2005, 04:33 PM
of course I am. The point is, just because he's a programmer, doesn't mean he knows how to use the computer efficiently. He has 2 gigs of RAM and 3 Ghz processor, yet he still opens and closes a new program instead of just opening another instance. We have several projects, if he needs to build two of them, he opens VS, builds it, closes VS, opens another instance of VS, opens the next project, builds it, etc.
I actually do this too, partly because VS does build up a lot of memory after a long time, and partly because I want to be sure it's actually building things. I also "Close All Documents" before I build.

When I'm satisfied with my changes, I Rebuild All. Then I close the IDE, go to source control, and get the latest version of all the code. Then I open the IDE and Rebuild All again. Then I close the IDE and check things in. Then sometimes I get latest version again and Rebuild All, just incase someone checked things in between rebuilds.

It's for the same reason I conciously put my keys in my pocket, leave my house, and before I close the front door (deadlocked), I have to check my pockets again. That's because I've been burned in the past, and if I do ever forget my keys, I have to climb in through the balcony window (on the 3rd floor) or get a locksmith to let me in.

One day the program might do something you don't expect, you'll check things in, and they won't build for everyone else. Then they'll shout at you. And you'll wish you'd done what the other guy did. I'm not saying it will happen, but if it does, you won't want to be burned again.

rockytriton
11-08-2005, 05:37 PM
At any time at work, I usually have about 3 instances of VS open, 1 instance of Eclipse (which is the REAL memory hog), a few instances of PuTTy open, Outlook, Visio, and probably 10 different explorer windows open to directories that I use often. Oh, probably about 3 or 4 console windows open to directories I use a lot of command line junk on too. With all this, everything still runs very fast and my system usually stays running like this for about 3 months before I actually reboot. By the way linux kids, it's Windows XP and it never crashes either! Ha ok, no big deal, I'm just in a ranting sort of mood! :D

rockytriton
11-08-2005, 05:37 PM
As moronic as your statement was, I can't help but pity you for thinking you "OWNED" me.

PWNED! :D

jmd15
11-08-2005, 05:45 PM
PWNED! :D

What?

BobMcGee123
11-08-2005, 06:10 PM
As moronic as your statement was, I can't help but pity you for thinking you "OWNED" me.

As masement as your cement may be I can't help but indignate the fact that you macaroni-esque kafka beans!

jmd15
11-08-2005, 07:22 PM
Well hey now! Don't bring kafka beans into this.... ;)

Queatrix
11-08-2005, 10:29 PM
Your friend sounds like a manager, and is therefore WAY smarter than you.

He isn't.

How does it sound like that?

VirtualAce
11-08-2005, 11:57 PM
Ok, how many discussions are going on in this thread?

I'd say overall talk is cheap. Show them you know more ...now go code it so we can end this thread.

;)

nvoigt
11-09-2005, 02:27 AM
I don't know any people thinking they are smarter than me who aren't actually smarter in at least one situtation. However, I know a lot of people that think I can magically fix about anything happening in/on/around computers, because I "work with computers". Matter of fact, I can fix most of it because I use the lastest version of Brain (tm), but if a printer doesn't work, because the owner was dense enough to break a plastic piece, I wonder what they think I could do about it. I should charge people based on how many black chickens, candles, holy books and virgins I need for the rituals.

SlyMaelstrom
11-09-2005, 02:57 AM
I don't know any people thinking they are smarter than me who aren't actually smarter in at least one situtation. However, I know a lot of people that think I can magically fix about anything happening in/on/around computers, because I "work with computers". Matter of fact, I can fix most of it because I use the lastest version of Brain (tm), but if a printer doesn't work, because the owner was dense enough to break a plastic piece, I wonder what they think I could do about it. I should charge people based on how many black chickens, candles, holy books and virgins I need for the rituals.

This is because programming, to many people, seems like a skill that they feel they wouldn't be able to ever comprehend as well as you. They know that you're a bright person, a good problem solver, and they probably look up to your intelligence. I work with the same kind of people that treat me the same way. I wouldn't say they assume you can magically fix things, they just know you could provide better input on the problem than they, or anyone else there could.

Don't let the pressure that everyone throws onto you get to your guts. Don't even concern yourself with how much they ask of you. If you do, it'll eat you up and you'll snap on the next techno-ignoramus who asks you to install windows on their Ipod.

laserlight
11-09-2005, 03:56 AM
I don't know any people thinking they are smarter than me who aren't actually smarter in at least one situtation.
I do get the perception that people think I am smart because I can program, but then I think this has more to do with interest, aptitude, knowledge and experience than with intelligence, though a basic level of intelligence is required, of course.


but if a printer doesn't work, because the owner was dense enough to break a plastic piece, I wonder what they think I could do about it.
Help them buy a replacement (with their money) or send it for repair?

Govtcheez
11-09-2005, 06:49 AM
He isn't.

How does it sound like that?
Well, if anything, I think it's fairly safe to say he's probably got a better sense of humor than you.

rockytriton
11-09-2005, 07:57 AM
What?

It was a joke, some internet kids also say "PWNED" for owned, so I was saying that you "PWNED" him.

Queatrix
11-09-2005, 09:29 AM
Well, if anything, I think it's fairly safe to say he's probably got a better sense of humor than you.
Thats not what people who know me and him have to say.

He looks like a monkey when he grins.

Govtcheez
11-09-2005, 09:52 AM
You just keep telling yourself that.

Queatrix
11-09-2005, 11:31 AM
Honestly, what makes you think that?

PJYelton
11-09-2005, 11:59 AM
LOL, I'm curious how long August is going to argue this joke :D

I agree with some others here, its amazing how some people think we can magically fix all things computer related just because we are computer literate. I get a couple of calls a month from my mother-in-law from her store getting asked things like "Such and such crashed, what should I do?" The worst is when one of her FRIENDS calls me saying "Pam said you are a computer genious, what would you recommend as a good stamp collection program?"

Govtcheez
11-09-2005, 12:26 PM
Honestly, what makes you think that?
If you're still asking, then you're beyond help.