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Fordy
07-07-2005, 03:39 AM
There's early reports of explosions on public transport through London.

First reports mention power surges on the Tube.

Now the BBC says that police have confirmed an explosion on a bus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4659093.stm

Ken Fitlike
07-07-2005, 04:15 AM
Not altogether unexpected although I had assumed that Edinburgh would have been more likely, given the proximity of the G8 summit.

Shocking, nonetheless. :(

anonytmouse
07-07-2005, 05:17 AM
Terrible. It looks like dozens of fatalities. My sympathies to the UK people.

Stoned_Coder
07-07-2005, 05:33 AM
So far i think 7 separate incidents have happened. Buses and trains have been targetted but I believe the injury count is actually low considerring the time and location of the explosions. Utter chaos though as many buses and all underground train services have been suspended. Well suppose we wait for someone to admit responsibility for these atrocities.

Welshy
07-07-2005, 06:21 AM
BBC news 24 says 6 train explosions, and at least 1 bus i think. Tony Blair looked pretty shocked when he gave his statement earlier, so am i really, i hope nobodys lost any loved ones

kermi3
07-07-2005, 06:53 AM
I just heard a MP from the intel comittee saying there were 6 confirmed, but it could be higher...

So far teh US media I'm listening to says multible deaths, but the BBC says only 2 deaths so far...but 100s of injured....Not that it matters, my thoughts and prayers to all of those in London.

Stoned_Coder
07-07-2005, 06:56 AM
Some Al-Queda group has supposedly admitted responsibility and also warned Italy and Denmark to expect similar attacks.

Glirk Dient
07-07-2005, 07:00 AM
I just heard there are for sure 4 sites. The 6 or 7 figure is said to be from multiple explosions at the sites.

anonytmouse
07-07-2005, 07:42 AM
Sky is reporting 45 dead/1000 injured (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1188265,00.html).

jverkoey
07-07-2005, 07:49 AM
Some Al-Queda group has supposedly admitted responsibility and also warned Italy and Denmark to expect similar attacks.

Meh, I don't know how believable that really is, it could easily just be some kid being really stupid for all we know :rolleyes:

Sad to hear about this...it's definitely not a good thing in any respect, whoever caused it.

ober
07-07-2005, 07:54 AM
Sad... just a very sad day. Hopefully if anyone else is targeted, security will hopefully catch them. :(

ober
07-07-2005, 07:55 AM
Meh, I don't know how believable that really is, it could easily just be some kid being really stupid for all we know :rolleyes:

Sad to hear about this...it's definitely not a good thing in any respect, whoever caused it.
No, I heard the same thing... some Islamic group produced a video of some sort claiming they did it. My wife also heard that the bombs could have been set off by cell phones in the trains.

Fordy
07-07-2005, 08:26 AM
They think that the explosion on the bus may have been a suicide bomber

BobMcGee123
07-07-2005, 08:28 AM
The US, Spain, and now the UK, I cannot help but wonder who is next.

I also wonder how feasible it is to really stop these people. I would like to think that eventually this worldwide 'insurgency' will wither and lose steam, but my gut feeling is that it can only be growing. My only 'good' feeling about this incident is that these terrorists only have so-called conventional bombs, as opposed to something nuclear or biological.

ober
07-07-2005, 08:32 AM
>> these terrorists only have so-called conventional bombs, as opposed to something nuclear or biological.

... so far.

Govtcheez
07-07-2005, 08:53 AM
> I also wonder how feasible it is to really stop these people.

Pretty un-feasible (it's a word now, dammit). To do that, you'd have to remove whatever it is they're mad at. First of all, we won't do that, and second of all, they'll probably just find another thing to be mad at.

BobMcGee123
07-07-2005, 09:01 AM
I agree with you.

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 09:03 AM
they would be mad that we refuse to be Muslim. Islamic extremists (and I stress extremists as opposed to other muslims) believe in enforcing a global islamic state. They only target the "aggressors" right now because it's the most obvious obstacle to establishing a global islamic state.

Govtcheez
07-07-2005, 09:11 AM
It'd be interesting to find out what makes them think blowing people up will make others convert to any religion. If anything it appears to strengthen the faith of those who have it.

Ken Fitlike
07-07-2005, 09:19 AM
They think that the explosion on the bus may have been a suicide bomberReminds me of the IRA a few years ago - a guy blew himself up by accident while travelling on a bus with his bomb-in-a-bag. I think it was late at night so it was just his giblets and a can-opened London bus; no-one else was hurt, thankfully. I'm just wondering if that's what happened today - maybe this particular 'suicide bomber' was on his way to plant the bomb elsewhere, but it accidentally went off (all of the other explosions seem to involve the underground).

edit: Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/812224C7-006D-4424-B15B-EC3E8381A4D7.htm) are remaining understandably non-partisan in their reporting but I'd expect an 'opinion' article from them in due course.

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 09:24 AM
It'd be interesting to find out what makes them think blowing people up will make others convert to any religion. If anything it appears to strengthen the faith of those who have it.They can't force them to believe it. But they can certainly force them to practice it. This has been done before.

edit:
"Conversion by the sword" is their mantra. It may be out of context, but its in the Koran and they believe it strongly.

Fordy
07-07-2005, 09:25 AM
Reminds me of the IRA a few years ago - a guy blew himself up by accident while travelling on a bus with his bomb-in-a-bag. I think it was late at night so it was just his giblets and a can-opened bus; no-one else was hurt, thankfully. I'm just wondering if that's what happened today - maybe this particular 'suicide bomber' was on his way to plant the bomb elsewhere, but it accidentally went off (all of the other explosions seem to involve the underground).

I think these people are different from the Irish Loonies that used to maim and kill during our childhood. They dont seem to mind being destroyed in the attrocities they commit.

A bus is probably as good a target as any - they want to shock everyone who sees what they have done, and a bus ripped to shreds on a public street is more shocking than knowing that explosions happened under the ground in places where you cant get decent photographs. Regardless of the number of casualties compared to the tube bombings, that picture of the bus will in future symbolise what happened today.

Fordy
07-07-2005, 09:28 AM
They can't force them to believe it. But they can certainly force them to practice it. This has been done before.

I think that's the goal. Jihad isnt a matter of forcing the Muslim faith, it's about forcing Muslim power.

Govtcheez
07-07-2005, 09:32 AM
They can't force them to believe it. But they can certainly force them to practice it. This has been done before.

edit:
"Conversion by the sword" is their mantra. It may be out of context, but its in the Koran and they believe it strongly.
That's true, but they'd have to delusional to think that by killing a few people they'll be able to take over the world.

Wait, I answered my own question :rolleyes:

Fordy
07-07-2005, 09:38 AM
Going back to the Jihad thing, I remember reading that during the time when the Moors occupied Spain, they allowed Christians and Jews to live and worship as they did, as long as they didnt live amongst Muslims, and as long as they knew who was in charge.

Also, galley slaves that the Ottomans held were not forced to convert, but then it was better for them if they did.

So again, it's extending control, not faith. If faith follws control, then that's all well and good, but it's not the main aim.

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 09:39 AM
...they'll be able to take over the world.
cue pinky and the brain music

Ken Fitlike
07-07-2005, 09:43 AM
I think these people are different from the Irish Loonies that used to maim and kill during our childhood. They dont seem to mind being destroyed in the attrocities they commit.

A bus is probably as good a target as any - they want to shock everyone who sees what they have done, and a bus ripped to shreds on a public street is more shocking than knowing that explosions happened under the ground in places where you cant get decent photographs. Regardless of the number of casualties compared to the tube bombings, that picture of the bus will in future symbolise what happened today.
That's the problem, though - we really have no idea at this point who 'these people' are although it seems a reasonable first conjecture to suggest militant islamic fundamentalists, as the authorities seem to be doing. There only seems to be one organisation claiming responsibility at the moment but that, in my view, will need clarification and verification.

The symbology of the wrecked bus works for both sides, though; I'm just not convinced that was the intended target - it seems more likely to me that the underground transport system was the target. But what do I know? I only hope that if they are 'suicide bombers' that they're removing their disturbed and disturbing genes from the genepool as they're committing these atrocities.

I see that the english police originally drafted into G8 duty are being returned south of the border - perhaps there's more troubles to come.

Fordy
07-07-2005, 09:51 AM
That's the problem, though - we really have no idea at this point who 'these people' are although it seems a reasonable first conjecture to suggest militant islamic fundamentalists, as the authorities seem to be doing. There only seems to be one organisation claiming responsibility at the moment but that, in my view, will need clarification and verification.


True, but I struggle to convince myself that anyone else would be responsible.

Time will tell, but you'd have to admit, there arent many other suspects who are known to operate this way and have on numerous occasions threatened to do just this.

Even if I turned out to be wrong, I dont see that I would need to apologise to a bunch of maniacs who have already killed countless people in this way. :)

Ken Fitlike
07-07-2005, 11:19 AM
It's all very sad really - only yesterday Londoners and to a lesser extent the rest of the UK, were celebrating a successful Olympic hosting bid and now, today - this.

The Brain
07-07-2005, 11:48 AM
antics like this make me want to grab my m-16 and spread a little democracy...

i am ready for war.

axon
07-07-2005, 02:14 PM
:(







one

Dante Shamest
07-07-2005, 02:50 PM
I was planning to go to London this week and take the underground to my Aunt's place.

Luckily, I failed one exam and had to resit it so the trip was cancelled.


antics like this make me want to grab my m-16 and spread a little democracy...

i am ready for war.

Funny, I bet that's what the terrorists think too. We've reached the moral low ground.

No wait, I forget that terrorists don't think. They're obviously just a sick bunch of raving suicidal loonies. Just a group of Koran-waving maniacs aren't they? I bet invading their countries for non-existent WMDs and the Palestinian thing had absolutely nothing to do with it.

pianorain
07-07-2005, 02:54 PM
i am ready for war.I'm glad you're not in charge of foreign policy.

Certainly what happened is terrible and heinous, but "war" in this case would simply be indiscriminate justice. And that's the worst kind of justice.

Fordy
07-07-2005, 03:03 PM
antics like this make me want to grab my m-16 and spread a little democracy...

i am ready for war.

That's stupid



I bet invading their countries for non-existent WMDs and the Palestinian thing had absolutely nothing to do with it.

That's pathetic. The people affected weren’t responsible for either of those factors.

Dante Shamest
07-07-2005, 03:10 PM
That's pathetic. The people affected weren’t responsible for either of those factors.

I suppose the Middle East civilians who have been affected by the current war were responsible for something?. :rolleyes:

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 03:20 PM
I suppose the Middle East civilians who have been affected by the current war were responsible for something?. :rolleyes:
choose a military target to retaliate. Not civilians. The coalition never targetted civilians intentionally. We regret the innocent who are affected negatively, we don't intentionally make them suffer. Your argument is typical but weak.

Fordy
07-07-2005, 03:22 PM
I suppose the Middle East civilians who have been affected by the current war were responsible for something?. :rolleyes:

No of course not, but does that justify killing more civillians?

Dante Shamest
07-07-2005, 03:25 PM
choose a military target to retaliate. Not civilians. The coalition never targetted civilians intentionally. We regret the innocent who are affected negatively, we don't intentionally make them suffer. Your argument is typical but weak.

I apologise. You have enlightened me. The end justifies the means and collateral damage can be ignored. I should have realised that. I will follow that principle from now on.


No of course not, but does that justify killing more civillians?

Injustice begets injustice.

Anyway in the eyes of the terrorists, the civilians voted the governments into power, and hence are indirectly responsible. War truly makes all men equal in the eyes of the enemy.

...

Seriously though, I don't want to let this topic degenerate into another "Was the War right?" debate. I retract all my remarks and apologise to anybody who has been offended by them.

major_small
07-07-2005, 03:31 PM
somebody took a look at the trends: they said that over 3,000 people were killed in 9/11, 300 in spain, and now 30 in london, and they took that to mean that we're winning the 'war' on 'terrorism'...

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 03:40 PM
I apologise. You have enlightened me. The end justifies the means and collateral damage can be ignored. I should have realised that. I will follow that principle from now on.
hypothetical....

you are driving... you make a quick turn, not watching where you are going. You strike another car which slides into the median. The driver, a woman, dies that day.

The husband shows up that night and puts a gun to your wife's head and pulls the trigger. Justified?

Dante Shamest
07-07-2005, 03:42 PM
I was being sarcastic when I said that.


In the future I will use sarcasm tags. Like this.

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 03:45 PM
yes, I realise that. your sarcasm was mocking the idea that targetting civilians was wrong.

Dante Shamest
07-07-2005, 03:50 PM
Anyway in response to your hypothetical question, the events themselves have no real meaning. Whether the final act of the husband killing the wife of the other man is justified or not depends on a person's notion of justice. Justice after all, is a human concept that cannot be quantified or accurately defined.

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 03:52 PM
tell that to a jury

Dante Shamest
07-07-2005, 03:53 PM
tell that to a jury

Watch 12 Angry Men.

Govtcheez
07-07-2005, 04:04 PM
the Palestinian thing had absolutely nothing to do with it.Care to enlighten me as to what Britain has to do with "the Palestinian thing"?

FillYourBrain
07-07-2005, 04:12 PM
Care to enlighten me as to what Britain has to do with "the Palestinian thing"?
interesting question actually. The answer to that, although probably not what you meant by the question is the key to the middle east's problems.

The league of nations subdivided the old ottoman empire and chose a section to be given to the Jewish people. This was called Palestine under the original subdivision and until sufficient jewish migration to sustain a nation could be achieved, it was to remain under british control. Of course the brittish chose to treat it as if it were theirs. They gave some to certain arab leaders and it became modern day Jordan. Eventually the remaining chunk of the mandate territory was allowed to become a jewish nation. The british violated their mandate in the FAVOR of arabs. Of course historically, we know this not to be good enough for muslims.

This is not what you were asking though I assume. :)

Govtcheez
07-07-2005, 04:36 PM
> This is not what you were asking though I assume.

Um... Well, I learned something here, I guess. I'd be pretty damn surprised if that's what Dante was referring to or if that was the reason the bombs were planted.