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jrahhali
05-11-2005, 03:41 PM
I was at school today, during my spare at the cafeteria, and me a a few friends were talking, and the discussion got brought up about love.
One of my friends had a very strong argument about how there is no such thing as unconditional love, and in other words, all love is based on a certain condition.

Do you agree with this or disagree?

Open to thought and discussion:

Lithorien
05-11-2005, 06:56 PM
Unconditional love exists. Conditional love exists.

love != love.

We as humans have a language too limiting for the seperate but VERY SIMILAR concepts that surround unconditional 'love' and conditional 'love'.

Read Siddhartha (http://www.online-literature.com/hesse/siddhartha/) sometime for a good idea of what I mean. ;)

Govtcheez
05-11-2005, 07:33 PM
I have never seen anything that could qualify as unconditional love. There are always qualifications.

Glirk Dient
05-11-2005, 08:52 PM
I unconditionally love this topic.

B0bDole
05-11-2005, 09:24 PM
I unconditionally hate this topic.

edit: post 399!!

ober
05-12-2005, 06:04 AM
I love my wife a whole lot... but I swear if she ever....

Get my point?

pianorain
05-12-2005, 06:34 AM
I love my wife a whole lot... but I swear if she ever....one.

the dead tree
05-12-2005, 07:27 AM
There was a big post about this a long time ago, not sure what to look for.

edit: not really a logn time ago, just a few months. I havent slept, my class is being very annoying - the teacher want us to work in a group and participate.

joshdick
05-12-2005, 08:55 AM
I think when someone says they unconditionally love someone romantically, what they're saying is for better or worse and in sickness and in health, that sort of thing. Not strictly unconditional, but good enough for most committed couples.

Govtcheez
05-12-2005, 09:06 AM
Unconditional is a pretty extreme qualifier, though. Like ober says, he loves his wife, but it's possible for that to stop.

joshdick
05-12-2005, 09:10 AM
Unconditional is a pretty extreme qualifier, though. Like ober says, he loves his wife, but it's possible for that to stop.

Well, the English language is being degraded constantly through the misuse of absolute words like unconditional and unique. Does it bother anyone else when someone says something's "very unique"?

pianorain
05-12-2005, 09:29 AM
Does it bother anyone else when someone says something's "very unique"?I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. If someone did, I fully believe the "grammar & usage" police should punch him in the face.

Ken Fitlike
05-12-2005, 09:45 AM
I loved my favourite shirt unconditionally but it's dead now. :(

SMurf
05-12-2005, 10:23 AM
So, Ken, now that it's dead you've stopped loving it?


if (shirtFavourite->IsDead())
kenFitlike->Loves = NULL;
else
kenFitlike->Loves = shirtFavourite;

Ken Fitlike
05-12-2005, 10:36 AM
Certainly not - it's just that my relationship with it is no longer physical.

pianorain
05-12-2005, 11:10 AM
Certainly not - it's just that my relationship with it is no longer physical.I don't think we need to know the details about your physical relationship with your shirt. ;)

Clyde
05-12-2005, 12:02 PM
Perhaps some love their children unconditionally.

Felix
05-12-2005, 12:41 PM
I bet it exists for some people. Like Romeo and Juliet. And their precessors, those Greek people.

B0bDole
05-12-2005, 04:05 PM
>Perhaps some love their children unconditionally.

As long as you're getting good grades or making a lot of money, otherwise they're ashamed of you.

Zach L.
05-12-2005, 04:25 PM
Well, love must be based off of something, and clearly, that would be a condition... otherwise, one would not discriminate about who one loved.

alphaoide
05-12-2005, 04:31 PM
Perhaps some love their children unconditionally.
But if the children were not their children, would that couple love them?

DeepFyre
05-12-2005, 06:12 PM
my mother "unconditionally" loves me, if i were in prison she would love me, if i were a terrorist she would still love me. now as alphaoide said, if i were not her son, she would not love me under any conditions. so the reason she "unconditionally" loves me, is because I am her son, and if that condition were not met, then she wouldnt love me. so (at least in my case) a condition has to be met before i can be unconditionally loved. there for there is no thing as unconditional love.

however, you could argue that people like Jesus or Rama unconditionally loved everyone, but then again they are both supposed to be human forms of God.

Govtcheez
05-12-2005, 06:33 PM
> however, you could argue that people like Jesus or Rama unconditionally loved everyone,

Jesus and pals don't seem to have much use for people who don't worship them, so I don't know if you can say that's unconditional.

B0bDole
05-12-2005, 06:35 PM
there's always a condition to love, unconditional love is an oximoron...

Lurker
05-12-2005, 07:03 PM
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. If someone did, I fully believe the "grammar & usage" police should punch him in the face.

If the "grammar & usage police" were working at their job, we'd all be speaking Proto-Indo-European or, if it exists, a Proto-World, instead of English. Did the grammar police work when word order changed from "I know not" to "I don't know"? You might want to speak like that; it's more englishy :rolleyes: .

hīerst mē?

Govtcheez
05-12-2005, 07:26 PM
unconditional love is an oximoron...
I do not think it means what you think it means.

Hunter2
05-12-2005, 10:35 PM
>>so (at least in my case) a condition has to be met before i can be unconditionally loved.
While we are being pedantically philosophical:

Depending on opinion, a condition that is met by definition may be considered to be a function of the situation, rather than a prerequisite. For example:

For an electrical circuit to work as intended, it must meet the condition that electricity can flow through it. However, by definition, it cannot be an electrical circuit if electricity cannot flow through it; therefore, the condition that electricity must be able to flow through it becomes a product of the environment rather than a condition.

Similarly, your mother loves you because you are her son; however, since she is your mother, you are by definition her son, and therefore since the condition cannot be nullified, it is not considered to be a condition but a fact.

>>Jesus and pals don't seem to have much use for people who don't worship them
I hope you realize that this is a rather caustic remark; and, I would like to repectfully disagree. The Christian motto, as far as I have ever known, is: Love the sinner, hate the sin. While this is rarely (if ever) followed perfectly by Christians, or anyone else, it is the ideal that is supposed to be manifested in God (-> Jesus). This, of course, raises the question, why does God so often appear judgmental and condemning rather than loving? There are entire books written on the subject, and as such, I trust that if anybody is truly interested enough, they will go read the books themselves - as I can hardly do justice to such a broad and controversial issue myself in the space of one post.

I would like to point out, however, an irony: Assuming omnipotence and omniscience, it is not possible to be "of use" to God at all, and consequently, if he does love us in any way, it is difficult to find any reason for a requirement to be attached.

Just my 2c.

**EDIT**
>>As long as you're getting good grades or making a lot of money, otherwise they're ashamed of you.
Loving someone and being ashamed of them are not mutually exclusive. I am often ashamed of those whom I love, and yet, I love them none the less.

Waldo2k2
05-12-2005, 11:19 PM
I just think that unconditional is a horrible term. Romantically and with friends, you start loving a person for some reason or some number of reasons. If that person were to suddenly change, you may no longer "unconditionally love them" because they aren't the person you "unconditionally loved". Love takes on many forms and occurs to many degrees. I tend to stick to the argument that there is no way to describe what can be classified as unconditional love with mere words, semantics just get in the way.

Glirk Dient
05-12-2005, 11:58 PM
Of course love is conditional. Look at how many divorces there are(when divorces are allowed). Of course these people loved eachother at one point(most...some may marry for moeny, other forms of personal gain). So why did these people that loved eachother break up? Well something changed, perhaps the guy was a raging alchoholic or just really lazy and she couldnt change it. Perhaps the woman no longer showed affection and the guy got sick of it. Really, if they had unconditional love they would still be together, and the fact that there are so many divorces shows that.

Really, unconditional love can only exist for people that are blind to it. Why are people attracted in the first place? Good looks, good personality to name a few. Would any of you love a woman that was completely ugly, absolutely mean and really hates you and was negative in most every way. The answer is no, you would not be able to love something like that. You would simply get annoyed and irritated if you tried.

Also...not to turn this into a homosexuality discussion, but if there was unconditional love, then why don't heterosexual guys love eachother? Easy, they have the condition that a partner needs to be female, and that right there is a condition that needs to be met, making unconditional love not true or at least narrows it down to people that can qualify for unconditional love extremely small and really, there are so many conditions and human nature is to judge by conditions as such that unconditional love simply can't exist.

Govtcheez
05-13-2005, 05:41 AM
> I hope you realize that this is a rather caustic remark; and, I would like to repectfully disagree.

The common Christian philosophy is also that if you believe the way you should, you go to Heaven. If not, you go to Hell. If that's incorrect, please let me know why.

Welshy
05-13-2005, 09:10 AM
Ken Fitlike: lol

I'd have to agree with Ober too, same with me and my gf, i wouldnt leave her for many things, but there are always ways relationships can break up

Waldo2k2
05-13-2005, 10:09 AM
>>please let me know why

it's not incorrect, the bible just likes to contradict itself.

>>then why don't heterosexual guys love eachother

No offense but that's kind of a stupid question...I have friends that are guys that I love platonically, they've been there for me since elementary school.

I think it's safe to say that we've established that the word "love" is no longer sufficient, and that the bases have been mostly covered.

major_small
05-13-2005, 11:10 AM
Of course love is conditional. Look at how many divorces there are(when divorces are allowed). Of course these people loved eachother at one point(most...some may marry for moeny, other forms of personal gain).IMO, true love is unconditional, and people should really only marry somebody that they can unconditionally love... there are other types of love too, but your love for your wife and kids should most definately be unconditional.


Really, unconditional love can only exist for people that are blind to it. Why are people attracted in the first place? Good looks, good personality to name a few.I was attracted to my girlfriend because of her personality - we were both having hard times in our lives, hitting new lows every day - we've both changed alot since then, and our love has only grown. basically, I think most people today don't really realize what true love is anymore... for example, a man or woman might think they love somebody because they can put up with them and get along with them... for example, in couples where the guy just wants action and the girl just wants a guy with a car... sure, it works now, but how long can you keep that up? can you get in a deep conversation with her and fall asleep staring into her eyes thinking about how lucky you are every night?


Also...not to turn this into a homosexuality discussion, but if there was unconditional love, then why don't heterosexual guys love eachother?1) because all the people I talk to are female, with the exception of my boss, who I don't like? 2) because you don't unconditionally love everybody - love cannot be defined as conditional or unconditional... it's an emotion - it can't really even be defined at all... it depends on too many factors that vary from person to person...

you may say you love food, but do you love food like you love your best friend? do you love your best friend like you love your wife?

if you say I can love a girl that x,y, and z's, but doesn't a, b, or c's, then you're not describing the love that you should be marrying for...

no-one
05-13-2005, 11:44 AM
>
The common Christian philosophy is also that if you believe the way you should, you go to Heaven. If not, you go to Hell. If that's incorrect, please let me know why.
<

wrong, the only requirement on that is faith, and what follows is if you TRUELY believe in Jesus and God then you MUST turn from you evil, you cannot serve to masters, that dont mean you have to be perfect or anything so dont take that wrong.

and again the disbelief in unconditional love comes from the fact that people are too afraid and self centered to unconditionally commit themselves to ANYTHING muchless something as dynamic as a another person, this all stems from your inability to commit(Govt.)...

and i do unconditionally love someone... and i do mean it.

>Also...not to turn this into a homosexuality discussion, but if there was unconditional love, then why don't heterosexual guys love eachother?
<

they can, its that people are ........ing confused, Love is NOT a sexual thing, so "sexuality" is not an issue, and if you love someone it doesnt mean you gotta pork-um

im kind with major_small on what he said, and that people have forgotten what love is...

Hunter2
05-13-2005, 11:57 AM
The common Christian philosophy is also that if you believe the way you should, you go to Heaven. If not, you go to Hell. If that's incorrect, please let me know why.There are a lot of different views on the subject. One of the most plausible that I've heard is, in a nutshell: Hell is eternal separation from God; those who go to Hell choose it of their own free will.

C.S. Lewis' (fictional) novel, The Great Divorce, explains the concept much more thoroughly and satisfactorily than I can, as the full explanation involves a lot of Christian ideas that, unless you're already familiar with, can take a lot of words and examples to convey. I hope it will suffice to say, simply, that common stereotypes of the Christian faith only touch the tip of the iceberg.

>>it's not incorrect, the bible just likes to contradict itself.
Ouch, Waldo. That statement is comparable to Govt's in controversy potential, and phrased even more harshly. Again, oodles of books have been written about the subject; IMO, it has been beaten to death, and none of us can do justice to an exhaustive defense for either side in a post less than 20 screens long.

ober
05-13-2005, 12:23 PM
>>and i do unconditionally love someone... and i do mean it.

Tell us who and I'm sure someone can come up with a scenario that would make you stop loving them.

Glirk Dient
05-13-2005, 01:40 PM
I think people are bringing up a point that love is a very strong emotion. Sure you love your wife and your kids a great deal, but would you love your wife if she were married to another man and your kids werent yours but someone elses kids? No, you would be after your own family to love.

Love is a strong emotion so many people are desribing unconditional love as when you love someone so much that you would never leave them. When you get to that point the conditions of you stopping to love that person are only very severe conditions. What if they died, cheated on you? Dissapeared never to be seen again?

Think about this, do couples get married if they have doubts about their love? Most don't, they are pretty sure they are at a stage of unconditional love. Years down the road they end up breaking up...what happened to this unconditional love? The truth is it never existed, they only perceived it to exist and didn't want to think they would ever break up.

I also have to bring to light that everything a human does is for greed to some extent. Why do you love this person? Because you want to be with them and be loved back, so what happens when you are no longer getting anything positive back from the relationship? It makes loving them a waste of time and energy and you will end up no longer loving them. As was said before, love is a feeling. Could we also say there is unconditional happiness or anger? No, these are more basic feelings and people do not get happy and stay happy because it is unconditional, unless they OD on prozac 24/7.

no-one
05-13-2005, 02:16 PM
>Tell us who and I'm sure someone can come up with a scenario that would make you stop loving them.

1. thats just stupid
2. you think i havent been through them already? and besides
3. its been tested... in reality.

ober
05-13-2005, 02:27 PM
1) no it's not
2) no, I don't
3) whatever

Read the rest of this thread. Unconditional love does not exist.

no-one
05-13-2005, 02:43 PM
>

1) no it's not
2) no, I don't
3) whatever
<

im sorry if reality doesnt fit with your ideals of what it is. furthermore reality is not defined by your experiences... just because you haven't experienced such a thing and your reasoning based on that limited experience doesn't conclude its possible, that does not exclude the expierence of others, the possibility of it, or the reality of it.

>Read the rest of this thread. Unconditional love does not exist.

i did, and i strongly disagree with the majority of opinions presented.

Hunter2
05-13-2005, 03:23 PM
The main argument against unconditional love seems to be, in a nutshell, that if the person were not who they are, they would not be loved. As I have pointed out, there is a difference of opinions, not fact, here - whether the identity of the person is considered part of the situation in which love is unconditional (and therefore not truly a condition), or whether the identity of the person is considered to be a variable in a generic person, and if(identity == SOME_IDENTITY) love. To put the analogy in C terms:



class Person
{...};

//Conditional love:
set<Person> world;
world.insert(Person(ID_HUNTER2));
world.insert(Person(ID_NO_ONE));
for(set<Person>::iterator it = world.begin(); it != world.end(); ++it)
{
if(it->identity == ID_HUNTER2)
love(*it);
else if(it->identity == ID_NO_ONE)
sort_of_love(*it);
}
...

OR

//Unconditional love:
Person Hunter2;
Person no_one;
unconditional_love(Hunter2);
sort_of_love(no_one);
IMO, each person is distinct, and therefore one can have unconditional love for one person but not for another. As such, I hold to the former opinion; it seems that others do not, which is also a valid worldview.


everything a human does is for greed to some extent. This is a sweeping generalization that cannot be proven with our current science, and still excludes possibilities involving religion.

This argument is pointless, except for those who wish to repeat opinions already stated by others.

RobR
05-13-2005, 03:24 PM
>>Love is NOT a sexual thing

Bzzzzt. Sorry. You lose. Wrong answer.

The emotion we call love has everything to do with procreation of the species and therefore sex.

Glirk Dient
05-13-2005, 03:38 PM
Actually...name anything and it is somehow an act of greed to some extent for the person.

Really...people do things because they want results.

People help others because it makes them feel good and improves their image.

People have babies because they want to be parents.

Every act somehow benefits the person commiting the act, therefore making it an act of greed. I am not saying it is a bad thing or that every person should therefore be labeled as greedy, just saying everyone commits an act to benefit themselves, whether that act is to see a smile on someone face, by doing that it makes that person feel good and other benefits depending on the situation.

no-one
05-13-2005, 03:46 PM
>
Bzzzzt. Sorry. You lose. Wrong answer.

The emotion we call love has everything to do with procreation of the species and therefore sex.
<

well.. being i dont have to have sex to love and i dont have to love to have sex, so i dont need love to procreate, and sex is fun enough that it doesnt need love to encourage the act... more than anything it prevents sex from happening... so i have to disagree... and even if i did lend to procreating it does not mean that love is based in sexuality...

>Actually...name anything and it is somehow an act of greed to some extent for the person.

definition of Greed:

An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

RobR
05-13-2005, 03:52 PM
>>so i have to disagree...

Your perogative, of course. You're wrong, incidentally.

Zach L.
05-13-2005, 03:56 PM
Could we also say there is unconditional happiness or anger? No, these are more basic feelings and people do not get happy and stay happy because it is unconditional...
and
... unless they OD on prozac 24/7.
Isn't that a condition. :D

no-one
05-13-2005, 04:07 PM
>Your perogative, of course. You're wrong, incidentally.

well were all certainly entitled to our opinions arn't we... you heartless bastard.

Hunter2
05-13-2005, 04:46 PM
I have hitherto remained objective, or relatively so, in my comments - which I have spent a good deal of time composing, placing an emphasis on fact and reason rather than unsupported opinion. Unfortunately, nobody seems to care about what one says unless one makes unsupportably decisive and/or personal statements on unsolvably controversial issues. As such, I shall respond in kind.



>>The emotion we call love has everything to do with procreation of the species and therefore sex.
I pity your (future?) marriage, when you get past the age of 50 or so. You'll get divorced, or have her murdered, and then marry an 18-year-old gold-digger who'll spend your money and then dump you. You're screwed, 'cuz you're an @55h0l3 who only cares about sex.

>>only help others because it feels good or because it looks good (something to that effect)
Yes, and the good feeling - more often than not - is only present because they love the person they are helping. Especially if the person is ungrateful. You're an @55h0l3 who doesn't understand the concept of compassion.

You're all @55h0l3s.

But I love you all anyway :) You're just poor misguided children who have never truly been loved, and therefore cannot fathom the meaning of true love.


This thread is about nowhat, is going nowhere in nowhen, will enlighten nowho, has nowhy, and I don't nohow it hasn't degenerated into a flame war yet.


Lalala, ok I'm going. Be back in a year to see how things are progressing, cya all later.

major_small
05-13-2005, 11:00 PM
I don't feel like quoting, because this is just going to be a long quote train, so I'll respond to ideas:

»love == sex
I'm ignoring that because it's just plain stupid... I think Hunter2 said it best... please don't marry anybody until you realize you're wrong. and for the sake of humanity, please make sure you don't get somebody pregnant...

»I could name something she would do that you would leave her for
try me... so far I've been through mental instability, self-destructive behavior due to self-image problems, her going to a school where she gets hit on at least twice a day, a guy that jumped on her and tried raping her, a guy that masturbated and came on her, her past history of b/f's that she can't even recall, except for shady facts like that she once had 6 at the same time, none of which knew about eachother, etc. all with the same girl... and I still love her more than ever... and I tell her constantly that I don't mind if she cheats on me because I know how wild she was in her past... I would just like her to tell me if/when she does... and even if she hid it from me and I found out some other way, I would still love her... sure it would bother me, but I would still love her.

»people do things because their greedy
sure, if you think doing something to get the warm fuzzy feeling is greedy, then I guess so.

»god,jesus,bible,etc.
who cares. just like on the subject of love, there is no right or wrong. you believe what you believe, and though you may be able to kill for your beliefs, it doesn't make anybody else wrong, no matter how much you may want them to be... or if you 'know' how wrong they are, do yourself a favor, don't worry about it... they'll find out in the end anyway, right?

I used to think along the lines of "people forgot what love is", until I thought about it, and realized that love can't be defined.

RobR
05-14-2005, 01:31 AM
»love == sex
I'm ignoring that because it's just plain stupid... I think Hunter2 said it best... please don't marry anybody until you realize you're wrong. and for the sake of humanity, please make sure you don't get somebody pregnant....

Too late. I'm 44 years old, happily married with 2 kids. Not sure of your point?

I love my wife, my wife loves me. We have 2 children who we both love dearly. You see the commeon thread here? Procreation, continuation of the species? Pretty tricky (tell me how if you find out) without sex.

I just get fed up with this poetic fluffy notion of love for its own sake. Recognise it for what it is - a desire to procreate. Nothing wrong with that!