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axon
01-31-2005, 02:22 PM
I'm pretty sure there are members here who are vegetarian - if so, what kind-of vegetarian are you?

ang how would you guys pronounce 'vegan'?

this was pretty amuzing: " The strict term can be politically parodied: the humorist Dave Barry, in a healing postelection column, urged readers not to stereotype red-state voters as ''knuckle-dragging Nascar-obsessed cousin-marrying roadkill-eating'' rednecks, nor blue-state voters as ''tofu-chomping holistic-wacko neurotic vegan weenie perverts.'' "

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/30/magazine/30ONLANGUAGE.html?oref=login


Vegan
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

Published: January 30, 2005

"By all that is sacred in our hopes for the human race,'' wrote the passionate poet Percy Bysshe Shelley in 1813, ''I conjure those who love happiness and truth, to give a fair trial to the vegetable system.'' The cardinal rule of that blithe spirit: ''Never take any substance into the stomach that once had life.''

That philosophy of diet was first recorded by Pythagoras of Samos who munched on his veggies around the fifth century B.C., with Greek philosophers like Plato, Epicurus and Plutarch embracing fleshless eating with enthusiasm. A few decades after Bish's endorsement (the teenager he seduced and later married, Mary Wollstonecraft's daughter, called him Bish), the diet was being called vegetarian, a word popularized by the formation of the vegetarian Society at Ramsgate, England, in 1847. After its planting, that word grew (from the Latin vegetare, ''to grow'') for a century.

Then along came the Yorkshireman Donald Watson, a woodworker in Britain and a devotee of greens, who was looking for a name for his newsletter. ''We should all consider carefully,'' he wrote his early subscribers in 1944, ''what our Group, and our magazine, and ourselves, shall be called.'' He was tired of typing the long word vegetarian thousands of times and believed nondairy was too negative: ''Moreover it does not imply that we are opposed to the use of eggs as food. We need a name that suggests what we do eat.'' He rejected vegetarian and fruitarian as ''associated with societies that allow the 'fruits'(!) of cows and fowls.'' (That's milk and eggs; the poet Robert Lowell wrote in 1959 of a ''fly-weight pacifist,/so vegetarian, /he wore rope shoes and preferred fallen fruit.'')

Watson suggested to his readers that the newsletter be called The Vegan News. ''Our diet will soon become known as a vegan diet, and we should aspire to the rank of vegans.''

As his subscribers swallowed his coinage, Watson promptly made it an -ism : ''Veganism is the practice of living on fruits, nuts, vegetables, grains and other wholesome nonanimal products.'' He thus dissociated his strict -ism from that of vegetarianism, a less rigorous regime that usually permits the eating of eggs, dairy products and honey, as well as the wearing of animal products like leather, wool and silk. (To get the vitamin B12 in animal products, many vegans drink fortified soy milk or take a vitamin pill. Mother's milk is permitted for babies.)

Vegetarian has another offshoot besides the aforesaid fruitarian: ''Pescetarian is a frequently used term for those alleged veggies who eat seafood (but not meat or fowl),'' noted a writer in The Guardian in 2002, ''and irritate meat eaters and genuine vegetarians the world over.''

One who exclusively noshes on crudités (a Yiddish-English-French phrase) is called a rawist. Also coined in the early 90's is flexitarian, one who eats vegetarian dishes at home but will go along with meat, fish or fowl in a restaurant or as a guest. (A food pollster would call these loosey-goosey gourmands swing eaters.)

In the recent presidential campaign, Ralph Nader revealed his food flexitarianism -- no meat, but fish is O.K. -- while Representative Dennis Kucinich firmly asserted his status as a vegan. The strict term can be politically parodied: the humorist Dave Barry, in a healing postelection column, urged readers not to stereotype red-state voters as ''knuckle-dragging Nascar-obsessed cousin-marrying roadkill-eating'' rednecks, nor blue-state voters as ''tofu-chomping holistic-wacko neurotic vegan weenie perverts.''

Vegan, too, has its offshoot: a freegan is an anticonsumerist who eats only what others throw away. Unlike a dumpster diver, a freegan (hard g) limits his scrounging to edibles. I believe this term is too close to euphemisms for copulation to be more than a nonce word.

Do not confuse the noun vegan with the intransitive verb to veg out. The latter is based on vegetate, ''to exist passively,'' coined in that sense by the playwright Colley Cibber in 1740. It means ''to droop into such a state of insensibility as to appear to become a vegetable.''

My problem with vegan, now affirmatively used as self-description by roughly two million Americans, is its pronunciation. Does the first syllable sound like the vedge in vegetable, with the soft g? Or is it pronounced like the name sci-fi writers have given the blue-skinned aliens from far-off Vega: VEE-gans or VAY-gans?

For this we turn to the word's coiner: ''The pronunciation is VEE-gan,'' Watson told Vegetarians in Paradise, a Los Angeles-based Web site, last year, ''not vay-gan, veggan or veejan.'' He chooses the ee sound followed by a hard g. That's decisive but not definitive; some lexicographers differ, and pronunciation will ultimately be determined by the majority of users.

I'll go along with the coiner's pronunciation of VEE-gan. He's a charmingly crotchety geezer who began as a vegetarian. ''When my older brother and younger sister joined me as vegetarians, nonsmokers, teetotalers and conscientious objectors,'' Watson says, ''my mother said she felt like a hen that had hatched a clutch of duck eggs.'' He obviously inherited her feel for language. I'm a carnivore myself -- an animal that delights in eating other animals -- but won't treat this guy like a fad-diet freak: Watson has a major coinage under his belt, and he's a spry 94.


edit:: I'm reading and posting this while chomping down on a juicy double cheezburger from photos....mmm :p

Govtcheez
01-31-2005, 02:29 PM
> a freegan is an anticonsumerist who eats only what others throw away.

Round here we call those people "bums".

I've always pronounced/heard vegan pronounced with a long e and a hard g.

Also, it's kind of stupid for someone to call themselves vegetarians if they still eat fish or chicken or whatever. I'm a vegetarian, but I still eat all sorts of meat :rolleyes:

ober
01-31-2005, 02:36 PM
My wife likes to pretend that she's vegetarian sometimes, but she has to have a burger from time to time and generally eats meat on almost a daily basis. I don't personally think that I could live the lifestyle. I think I need meat to survive.

quzah
01-31-2005, 02:38 PM
I compile my food with "-vegan -pedantic", in other words, I'm a strict vegan. You can always consult the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan) for pronunciation.

I agree with Govt on his comment above. It's annoying to listen to people who think they're hip or "saving the world" or something because they're "vegetarian". Vegetarians annoy the hell out of me. Either do or don't, don't half-ass it. I particularly like the ones who eat seafood or chicken and still insist that they're "vegetarian". Or the ones who eat eggs. Or people who say they're vegan, but really are just some lame ass vegetarian variant.

And before some dumb I am sillyI am sillyI am sillyI am silly starts in with the lame meat eater jokes, I've heard them all. They weren't funny the first time, they won't be funny now. I couldn't care less what it is you eat. Just don't try to pretend you're doing something great by not eating red meat, or try to put yourself in my class.

Quzah.

quzah
01-31-2005, 02:39 PM
I don't personally think that I could live the lifestyle. I think I need meat to survive.No you don't. You just think you do.

Quzah.

Govtcheez
01-31-2005, 02:55 PM
> I couldn't care less what it is you eat.

I've always thought it was a pretty ridiculous thing to impose your eating standards, of all things, on people. "Come on, eat this burger!" and "You're harming the planet!" have never made anyone change their minds. My boss, who I go out to lunch with pretty much every day, is a vegetarian. He doesn't care that I eat meat, and I don't care he doesn't. I do feel kind of sorry that there's usually only 1 or 2 things he can order when we go out, though.

ober
01-31-2005, 03:03 PM
>> I do feel kind of sorry that there's usually only 1 or 2 things he can order when we go out, though.

Exactly. Do you mind if I ask what it is that you do eat, Quzah? I eat a lot of veggies... but I just need something else sometimes.

Darkness
01-31-2005, 03:10 PM
I just don't like vegetables because they are gross.

axon
01-31-2005, 03:19 PM
>>I just don't like vegetables because they are gross.<<

if you're trying to be funny, you're not. If you're serious, I'm pretty sure you have not tried everything thats out there; the variety of tastes in the vegetable world is so big and so diverse, that there must be a few things you would enjoy.

Darkness
01-31-2005, 03:32 PM
I'm being serious. vegetables taste like crap. Except chewing tobacco.

RoD
01-31-2005, 03:34 PM
Thats not a vegtable you friggen moron.

Darkness
01-31-2005, 03:51 PM
and i supposed next you are going to tell me a tomato is a fruit.

dpro
01-31-2005, 03:58 PM
It is indeed :) check the definition of a fruit and sure enough a tomato is a fruit! that being said I don't see what the big deal is what you eat or whatever anyone else eats. You were born an omnivore, though you may choose a vegetarian lifestyle which is probably more healthy. Do I care if anyone here is a vegetarian? Nah I respect what you think is the right way to eat, just common sense :).

Zach L.
01-31-2005, 04:13 PM
Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=vegan&x=0&y=0) has the audio for the pronunciation. They have four variants, though. The first is what I've heard and say... the last two sound positively stupid (the pronunciations).

andyhunter
01-31-2005, 04:14 PM
>or try to put yourself in my class.

quzah - you are definetly in a class all by yourself. :p ;)

axon
01-31-2005, 04:19 PM
Merriam-Webster has the audio for the pronunciation. They have four variants, though. The first is what I've heard and say... the last two sound positively stupid (the pronunciations).


oh man...that last pronunciation is funny :D I also pronounce it the first way

DeepFyre
01-31-2005, 04:24 PM
im vegetarian! cant understand how you people can actually eat beef, although some people would say the same about indian food :(

yea i pronounce it long e hard g 2

DeepFyre
01-31-2005, 04:27 PM
It is indeed :) check the definition of a fruit and sure enough a tomato is a fruit! that being said I don't see what the big deal is what you eat or whatever anyone else eats. You were born an omnivore, though you may choose a vegetarian lifestyle which is probably more healthy. Do I care if anyone here is a vegetarian? Nah I respect what you think is the right way to eat, just common sense :).

he was being sarcastic, if you couldnt multiply 22 and 17 off the top of your head :rolleyes:

Govtcheez
01-31-2005, 04:30 PM
im vegetarian! cant understand how you people can actually eat beef, although some people would say the same about indian food :(

yea i pronounce it long e hard g 2
Because I like the way it tastes?

I can't believe you wouldn't eat beef, but I bet you it's because you don't like it either. Funny how that works.

dpro
01-31-2005, 04:38 PM
he was being sarcastic, if you couldnt multiply 22 and 17 off the top of your head :rolleyes:


Uhhh I know that :) I was just humoring him.

lightatdawn
01-31-2005, 07:14 PM
I agree with Govt on his comment above. It's annoying to listen to people who think they're hip or "saving the world" or something because they're "vegetarian". Vegetarians annoy the hell out of me. Either do or don't, don't half-ass it. I particularly like the ones who eat seafood or chicken and still insist that they're "vegetarian". [...]

[...] I couldn't care less what it is you eat. Just don't try to pretend you're doing something great by not eating red meat, or try to put yourself in my class.

I could have said it in my own words but I feel quzahs bear repeating. I never quite know what so say or do when some imbecile waves a porkchop in my faces and goes "Ooooh... Meeeaaat." I get the urge to slap them and ask what convoluted thought pattern brought them to the conclusion that this would in any way offend or upset me or that theres even a glimmer of humour, purpose, or intellectual stimulation AT ALL in this activity. I cant recall a single time I've waved a string bean in someones face and with a lopsided smirk, leered "Oooooooh... Vegetable." Though I suppose that would make a good response to the above.

/* Edit */ I'm lodging a public complaint about the swear filter. Apparently the phrase "half cocked" is offensive. I am forced to improvise with "lopsided".

Digging further into the human mind its easy to see the pattern. People love to inflict their own belief structure onto others. I assume it comes from either a fear of being different/unaccepted and wanting to make everyone else comform, or simply from a fear of anything different (and therefor unknown) from ones own perception of the world. Be it your diet, your religion, your style of music, or choice of gatorade flavour, there will always be somebody who thinks that their choice is the only choice and your screwed up to do things any other way.

So ya, I suppose I'm done now.

P.S. And just so you all know; gatorade, in any of its incarnations, is gross and anyone who drinkis it is obviosuly screwed up.

-KEN-
01-31-2005, 07:34 PM
I could have said it in my own words but I feel quzahs bear repeating. I never quite know what so say or do when some imbecile waves a porkchop in my faces and goes "Ooooh... Meeeaaat." I get the urge to slap them and ask what convoluted thought pattern brought them to the conclusion that this would in any way offend or upset me or that theres even a glimmer of humour, purpose, or intellectual stimulation AT ALL in this activity. I cant recall a single time I've waved a string bean in someones face and with a lopsided smirk, leered "Oooooooh... Vegetable." Though I suppose that would make a good response to the above.

/* Edit */ I'm lodging a public complaint about the swear filter. Apparently the phrase "half cocked" is offensive. I am forced to improvise with "lopsided".




My old geography teacher used to torture this poor vegetarian girl in my class with details on pig butchery; she almost puked one day. To be fair though, he was concerned about her health: she suffered from an iron deficiency or something. Always thought he was kind of a jerk for it.

PS: You can half-cock my lopside any time you want.


>>P.S. And just so you all know; gatorade, in any of its incarnations, is gross and anyone who drinkis it is obviosuly screwed up<<

Oh it's ON NOW!

Ken Fitlike
01-31-2005, 07:36 PM
No you don't. You just think you do.

Quzah.I trust you take vitamin B12 supplements or eat foods that are fortified with B12...?

I'm 'omnivorous'; at about 99% vegetable dietary intake I don't believe it's presumptious to describe my diet as 'vegetarian' or, when surrounded by food-fascists, as 'mostly vegetarian'; it's certainly simpler than saying 'I eat what I like and happen to like munching plants but don't like to eat meat except every few years so don't assume that if I eat a bit of fish, for example, one day in 800 and seem to enjoy it at that time that you can shove that stuff in front of me and expect me to eat it.'

I don't care what other people eat; if they don't bother me then I won't add arsenic, thalium, iodine-131... to whatever it is. ;)

quzah
01-31-2005, 07:38 PM
Nah. I haven't taken vitamins regularly ever in my life time, even when I wasn't vegan. I've never had any problems, never broken any bones, hell, I never even get sick.

I take that back, the only time I get sick is when I don't want to go visit someone, or don't want to go to work. Other than that, I never get sick. :D

Quzah.

Govtcheez
01-31-2005, 07:40 PM
Why did you decide to become a vegan, if you don't mind me asking? (since I'm sure you hear that constantly)

quzah
01-31-2005, 07:42 PM
For the hell of it. I don't need to eat any animals or their juices or what not, so I figured why should I? It doesn't kill me or cause me suffering not to, so why should I kill something or cause it suffering just because I can?

Quzah.

Govtcheez
01-31-2005, 07:44 PM
That's too logical, dammit (that's curiously the same reason my boss is a vegetarian)

Darkness
01-31-2005, 07:46 PM
I used to go outside and shoot squirrels with .22 rifles. And then I wouldn't eat them.

And I never cared.

lightatdawn
01-31-2005, 07:46 PM
PS: You can half-cock my lopside any time you want.

Right. Okay. So, um. I apologise that I failed to believe in the swear filter. Your managed to construct one of the more obscene sentences I've read in a while. Even further, I now feel as if "lopsided" should be added to the list. :p


Oh it's ON NOW!

Oh go get lopsided.

Zach L.
01-31-2005, 07:47 PM
I never quite know what so say or do when some imbecile waves a porkchop in my faces and goes "Ooooh... Meeeaaat." I get the urge to slap them and ask what convoluted thought pattern brought them to the conclusion that this would in any way offend or upset me or that theres even a glimmer of humour, purpose, or intellectual stimulation AT ALL in this activity.Probably the same people who figure that I am a vegetarian because I am very fond of salads... I never quite understood how I could be sitting there eating a chef salad with ham and turkey, and have someone seriously inquire about whether or not I am a vegetarian. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't it be great if people concentrated on real problems instead of concentrating on what other people eat (especially when they go on to complain about how hard life is and how little time they have).

MadCow257
01-31-2005, 07:48 PM
Jesus wasn't a vegatarian was he?
I can't remember =/

Govtcheez
01-31-2005, 07:56 PM
Jesus wasn't a vegatarian was he?
I can't remember =/
No, he ate sin, which is actually a really bad cut of beef.

Krak
01-31-2005, 07:56 PM
I'm being serious. vegetables taste like crap. Except chewing tobacco.

You might be legally retarded, guy.

Everyone knows that chewing tobacco is a fruit. :mad:

Darkness
01-31-2005, 07:58 PM
derr derrr

quzah
01-31-2005, 07:59 PM
Jesus wasn't a vegatarian was he?
Honestly, who cares?

Quzah.

Zach L.
01-31-2005, 07:59 PM
No, he ate sin, which is actually a really bad cut of beef.
Oh! Oh! And I know exactly the place where you can get it! (Little restaurant on SW TX border.) So... that's what sin is... Vile stuff.

I have also known several Mexicans named Jesus who ate meat... Does that count?

Krak
01-31-2005, 07:59 PM
derr derrr

It's okay, my mom and dad were retarded. :cool:

:mad:

Darkness
01-31-2005, 08:00 PM
haha

the dead tree
01-31-2005, 08:03 PM
I'm vegan too, so quzah is not alone in the class.
Ahm, before you think I'm a tofu-chomping holistic-wacko neurotic vegan weenie pervert, let me tell you that the nick the dead tree has nothing to do with nature nor to the tears of the world that will drown us all :p

For an year or so I tried to think of a logical reason to stop eating meat and dairies, until I realized I didnīt need one other than animals feeling pain.
We are humans and we can feel the world in many different ways, depending on what values we believe. But animals donīt. And for them it doesnīt matter that we see them as animals with a life so deprived of meaning.
And that, instead of a reason to not care for their well being, it should show us the opposite, that they need their feelings and well being because itīs all they have and care about, and itīs the only way they can experience the world.

DeepFyre
01-31-2005, 10:59 PM
That's too logical, dammit (that's curiously the same reason my boss is a vegetarian)

really? would never have guessed ...

>>I used to go outside and shoot squirrels with .22 rifles. And then I wouldn't eat them.

And I never cared.

are you white? beacuse i have noticed ONLY Americans and other whities do that. Arabs dont do it, Native Americans (generally) dont do that, Indians (Hindus) dont do that ...

axon
01-31-2005, 11:05 PM
> Honestly, who cares?

they (http://www.jesusveg.com/index2.html) care, and they (http://www.soystache.com/jesus.htm) seem to care as well :P

btw, quzah, how long have you been a vegan, and how old were you when you decided that this lifestyle is the best for you?


Krak and Dark, thanks for the valuable contributions! you guys freagin rock!

major_small
02-01-2005, 12:32 AM
I haven't read the whole conversation and I don't feel like entering any flame wars (because I know there has to be one - there always is on this topic), but I'll answer the OP:

I'm a partial vegetarian, as in I don't eat red meat. I still eat eggs, poultry, fish etc. though.

and I pronounce vegan vee-gan

Govtcheez
02-01-2005, 06:48 AM
are you white? beacuse i have noticed ONLY Americans and other whities do that. Arabs dont do it, Native Americans (generally) dont do that, Indians (Hindus) dont do that ...
Did you just say "whitie"?

RobR
02-01-2005, 07:55 AM
Did you just say "whitie"?

Notch up another word for the filter, I believe.

So, 'bout this vegetarianism business. I understand the point about animals and their suffering, I really do. I refuse to eat veal. The way they produce that stuff should be outlawed IMHO. Same for fois gras (sp).

Question is though, if we all gave up beef, what would happen to the world population of cows?

Answer - it would dwindle massively. After all, farmers don't keep animals as pets :rolleyes:. So I suppose the question is, is it better to live a short, happy(?) life, or not live at all.

And I'm afraid that one is beyond my intellect.

ober
02-01-2005, 08:01 AM
The comment I'm about to make has no reflection on anyone here, but is just a general comment about the people I've met:

I don't understand 2 groups of people:

1) People that "don't like to harm the animals", but .......... the loudest when a deer runs out in front of them and they hit it with their car.
2) People that would rather let a breed of animal eat their grains and ruin an otherwise healthy lifestyle and starve to death because of their belief (I'm looking at you, India).

Maybe the second remark makes me insensative, but I don't care.

There just has to be some sort of balance. If you don't control animal population, they will overrun towns and cities. I also don't get why people get mad when Coyotes and mountain lions are brought in from the west to the east coast to control the deer population by insurance companies. The insurance companies are being fined for this!! For trying to keep your insurance costs down and your life safe!!

#@$%(*&@(#$*%&(@#$

You vegans can eat whatever you want, but don't get upset when I kill an animal and call me a bad person.

ober
02-01-2005, 08:04 AM
Oh... and another thing. Where do you vegans get your protein? There is none in your precious veggies. You probably get them from some vitamin or something else (although Quzah claims he does not). You need protein for a good diet. And where is a good natural source of protein? MEAT.

Ok, I'm done ranting now. [puts on flame suit]

hk_mp5kpdw
02-01-2005, 08:12 AM
Oh... and another thing. Where do you vegans get your protein? There is none in your precious veggies. You probably get them from some vitamin or something else (although Quzah claims he does not). You need protein for a good diet. And where is a good natural source of protein? MEAT.

Ok, I'm done ranting now. [puts on flame suit]


Go here (http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm) for an apparent answer to this quiestion. They have a couple charts showing a sample breakfast/lunch/dinner for typical males/females and the total protein content along with recommended daily protein intake.

Mystic_Skies
02-01-2005, 09:54 AM
I've been a vegetarian (almost vegan) for a while now and have to say that the protein ideology is way overblown. Plants have protein in them as well as some of the more higher sources like beans, Silk (soymilk), nuts and just about most of the things I've seen.

If you really look at what's in meat, I'd say that the only nutritious thing it really does have might only be protein and of course some B12 which I get from Soymilk and trace amounts from fresh vegetables. I'm sure you can get protein from tofu but for some reason I lack the taste for it. Eggs are another big story with way more cholesterol than just about anything. 1 egg has about twice the cholesterol than a steak larger than 8 oz! That's just crazy. Dairy is really the same except it has more growth hormones, antibiotics, and pus (yes pus) as seen here (http://www.milksucks.com/pus.html).

Yeah I really didn't like learning about how the animals are factory raised just for food but I mostly did it for the health reasons. I want to stick around longer than some of my relatives have.

On the lighter side, if you haven't seen this (http://www.peta.org/feat/meatrix/), I thought it was funny. :D

ober
02-01-2005, 10:20 AM
Fabulous. Spread overblown lies about a very good drinking product. At least in PA and MD, delivery companies will not even pick up milk that is over 100 million/per liter somatic cell count. If it goes over that, you have to dump the tank. There is also a very strict set of guidelines that have to be followed and all farms are periodically checked by health advisors. Not any schmuck can produce milk anymore.

Besides, try posting something from a site that is not related to PETA. You could not get a more biased source of info.

Mystic_Skies
02-01-2005, 10:27 AM
At least in PA and MD, delivery companies will not even pick up milk that is over 100 million/per liter somatic cell count.
If the guidelines are under 100 million/per liter though, why would you want to drink any somatic cells anyways? It sickens me personally.