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Kleid-0
01-29-2005, 09:48 PM
I believe it is ok if someone asks something like this:

Ok somebody create me a Hello World C Program Right now you're thinking about some options as answers:

STFU
We don't answer homework problems
Please use code tags

#include <stdio.h>

// Our program starts here.
// main always returns an integer
int main(
void ) // No input values for function main
{
// Output hello world onto the console

puts( "Hello World" );

// Make sure the program doesn't just *Flash* onto the screen

getchar( );

// Return application successfully

return 0;
}
My support for this thinking:
The first 3 options does not help anyone. The 4th option helps you.

If we always use the 4th option this is what we get:
Benefits:
- The people who want to learn shall learn
- Less pointless posts
- Helps the poster out because he/she is practicing more
- Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic

Debenefits:
- The question spawner might just copy/paste the code and turn it in.

Hunter2
01-29-2005, 10:00 PM
>>The first 3 options does not help anyone.
True, except for those with anger management problems.

>>The 4th option helps you.
Helps you learn self-control maybe? ;)

>>The people who want to learn shall learn
True

>>Less pointless posts
True

>>Helps the poster out because he/she is practicing more
Hmm, not sure if I follow your reasoning on this one...

>>Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic
Huuuuh?

>>The question spawner might just copy/paste the code and turn it in.
True

andyhunter
01-29-2005, 10:02 PM
Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic


I am not sure one would say intellectual. ;)

Stack Overflow
01-29-2005, 10:17 PM
Um,

I am a fan of #2 and #3 personally. A forum is a place or medium of open discussion or expression of ideas. Every person who asks for a program should not receive the whole source code unless they show effort.

Even if they did show effort, and display their code, help them fix their code step by step. Don't rewrite it, even though it works. It won't help them figure out why they need to use "int main()" or "return 0", rather than "void main()" or "fflush (stdin)".

There is a member, by the name of galmca. Search for him, and you'll see it isn't best to give away full answers. There wouldn't be jobs if everyone could have someone else do their work for them.


- Stack Overflow

Kleid-0
01-30-2005, 12:13 AM
>>Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic
Huuuuh? Like giving full source, and then disputing the source that was given, that's what I call thread hi-jacking lol.


There is a member, by the name of galmca. That guy was special lol. There are a lot of people that benefit from full source I bet, as long as you explain the changes/what you are doing. If this doesn't work, the answer givers could easily switch to the step-by-step approach.


Every person who asks for a program should not receive the whole source code unless they show effort. If they're not learning from the full source we could easily switch to another aproach.


Even if they did show effort, and display their code, help them fix their code step by step. Don't rewrite it... I agree with the no-rewriting, because the code will look foreign to them. But I don't exactly agree with always doing it step by step, but full source I see as an option, and sometimes the only option.


It won't help them figure out why they need to use "int main()" or "return 0", rather than "void main()" or "fflush (stdin)". That's why we should explain our full source, or give links to FAQ when needed. And if the questionaire really wants to learn he/she will ask why we always use return 0 or int main( ) all of the time.

sand_man
01-30-2005, 12:21 AM
Ill take door number 1 cos sometimes i like to be mean. i do try not to show it on this board though....(damn that rep system)

RoD
01-30-2005, 12:24 AM
your an idiot kleid.

Scribbler
01-30-2005, 01:43 AM
I can see both sides of the argument (kinda, not entirely).

If somebody asks for code outright (ie. Ok somebody create me a Hello World C Program) that's a nono. Instead they should make the attempt, and if it doesn't work, post their code and ask "My printf(); statement is not giving me the result I expected... can somebody exlpain why?". Questions that specific should get specific aswers. Questions asking obviously very general questions should get obviously very general responses (give em a nudge, not the answer).

And then there are some (I have not been on these forums very long and I've seen a lot) who are asking for homework assignments to be completed for them. Usually most of the problems are typical classic curriculum exercises and are easy to spot. Then there are some where it's obvious somebody has been having code just handed to them, because as their post count progresses, they start asking harder and harder questions (asking for more complicated code) and their examples show that they have not grasped one single concept of programming that even justifies their trying to tackle what they are attempting. (as a previous mention in this thread points out). Handing these people yet more code does absolutely nothing, as they could care less about what you explained to them in your code. Only that it works and they can cut and paste it onto their homework assignment.

On the flipside of the coin, I think new posters should be granted some leeway. It's not very encouraging when their very first posts blasts them with "Hey schmuck use code tags!" or "Use the Search features!" or "Don't bump old threads!" or "Read the FAQ you friggin n00b!" While this particular forum's etiquette should definately be explained where appropriate, I'm sure some form of politeness can be exercised. Part of this stems from this forum having slightly different etiquette than a majority of forums online.

For example, most forums promote necroing or re-awakening old threads that discuss the question you have, yet may not quite explain it in a manner that suit your particular needs. Whereas on this forum it is taboo.

Also most users (while I don't condone this however; I can reasonably understand why it happens) typically find themselves frequenting many different forums, and fall into the assumption that the FAQ's are usually the same as other forums saying "No profanity, use search when you can, no flames etc etc." So they tend to either just gloss over the text, or ignore it altogether. Unfortunately, this forum does have specific needs which the FAQ does successfully demonstrate. This can be solved though if it is politely explained to a new user (somebody with say...less than 20 posts) who demonstrates that they haven't read it. Which would produce much better results (and repeat visits) than if they were attacked for it.

When it comes to using the search features, I think a lot of the issues stem from the (in my opinion, I could be wrong) point that users frequent this forum to be educated and learn some programming, and one important aspect of learning is interaction. Yes a particular question may have been beaten to a pulp dozens of times over, however each person wants to be able to interact with others who can teach them, and interact with the problem/solution placed before them. Without that interaction, it kinda refutes the point of this forum to begin with. Otherwise all anybody would need is google, as there are Plenty of resources on the web and you'd be hard pressed not to find a solution to any question on c/c++ you could come up with simply by plugging the proper search terms.

Sometimes I feel that if you don't know the answer to a question posed, or you don't much feel like answering it, then don't (I believe that's pointed out in this forum's FAQ as well). A one line response with nothing more that "Haven't you read the FAQ (http://faq.cprogramming.com/cgi-bin/smartfaq.cgi) ? Quit posting dumb questions!" really serves no purpose other than to show your disdain.

And before I feel as if I'm on a soapbox, I'd like to point out that I also recognize there are some users who could really benefit from a swift kick in the shorts. If their post count is over 20, and they're showing no sign that they've observed the house rules, well then they're on their own :D

Kleid-0
01-30-2005, 01:53 AM
aahh Scribbler, my point is that it doesn't matter if the questionaire is learning or not. The point is to pretend they're learning at all times, and look at what we get in return!

Benefits:
- The people who want to learn shall learn
- Less pointless posts
- Helps the poster out because he/she is practicing more
- Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic

Debenefits:
- The question spawner might just copy/paste the code and turn it in.

We answer their questions with extra fulfillment, and we do what they say, even if they don't care about understanding. It's a win-win situation. No more comments like "We're not going to do this assignment for you", we'll be like: "Yes master, it shall be done".

Aaahh this is coming down to one question.

Is it Ok to help others cheat programming? I say yes, as long as you think they really care about understanding it. In the end it helps you understand it, and others that are reading the thread (because they're concerned too). When someone posts the full code, the thread can be hi-jacked, and thus people can prosper from discussing their source.

I call these homework cheating hi-jack ready threads.

major_small
01-30-2005, 02:01 AM
here is where I stand on this point (as if you cared):

I think we should use our judgement. sometimes I give somebody a straight answer because I believe they are capable of trying to understand it and ask again if there's some part(s) of it they don't understand. most people I want to see a little effort out of. mostly so I know what level they're at and tailor my answer to their level.

Salem
01-30-2005, 02:08 AM
Ah, asymptotic RoD strikes again.

Shadow
01-30-2005, 05:26 AM
Ah, asymptotic RoD strikes again.
Hahahaha. :D

Brain Cell
01-30-2005, 10:53 AM
We answer their questions with extra fulfillment, and we do what they say, even if they don't care about understanding. It's a win-win situation. No more comments like "We're not going to do this assignment for you", we'll be like: "Yes master, it shall be done".I hope this never happens. Lazy students will find this site the perfect place to get their homework done (with comments as an extra). I can't imagine my-self writing a program for someone just because he don't feel like it , and if i ever wanted to practice more , i'd work on some exercises from my C\C++ books or even make up some programs.


Is it Ok to help others cheat programming? I say yes, as long as you think they really care about understanding it. In the end it helps you understand it, and others that are reading the thread (because they're concerned too).No it isn't. You're simply giving them a fish instead of teaching them how to fish. In fact , that sounds real selfish. We should help them understand their problem and let them "practice more" by showing their efforts.

Stack Overflow
01-30-2005, 11:07 AM
Simply,
Is it Ok to help others cheat programming? I say yes, as long as you think they really care about understanding it. In the end it helps you understand it, and others that are reading the thread (because they're concerned too).The way I see it is he's trying to condition Cboard this way. So when it's time for him to ask a question, and receive help, it's given with his like-minded outcome. Which consists of full source; no questions asked.

Even if someone did ask for a program, you can write it yourself and learn from the experience. That does not mean you have to post it here too. Who cares if the OP is concerned. If they were concerned, they wouldn't need a full source hand-out. Rather, they would ask a specific question to derive a workable solution to their problem.

More said than done.


- Stack Overflow

axon
01-30-2005, 12:02 PM
wasn't this just discussed here: http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=61051 ; are you so attention hungry that you had to start your own damn thread about it....

Darkness
01-30-2005, 12:11 PM
In a way I agree with what Axon just said: this was already discussed in that thread. However, I'm also not totally sure what Kleid is trying to say as he wasn't very eloquent about it. Is he just saying "If someone is asking for help on a very mundane problem, it is then okay to do the work for them, in this case write a small program, in order to help them out?"

If that is what he meant, then I would have to say I agree. To quote myself on the thread axon posted:



Until you get that first 'foot in the door' so to speak, programming seems like an insurmountable challenge. I try to give people that foot in the door when I can, then otherwise I don't help as much.


Basically, if someone just needs a foot in the door to get started, then it is okay to go out of your way a bit (although the example with the 'Hello World" program is poor as it's in every C/C++ book ever written). Otherwise spoon feeding answers is poor practice and helps nobody. You've gotta balance this stuff to be most effective. Salem's approach to the matter is most useful for when people already have a foot in the door:



As much as possible, its about getting the poster to think for themselves a bit - which for newbies can be an extremely frustrating experience as it often seems like people are not really helping. But a large part of programming is down to thinking about the problem, and it's only when you "get" that aspect of it that you can start to tackle the really interesting programming problems.



So yeah.

edit: I'm trying to find an example in the C/C++ forum where instead of just giving the answer (Salem always seems to know the answer) he asks questions which make the poster think, and guides them to a solution. When the poster figures it out, he/she benefits most because ultimately, they did the work, and was only guided in the right direction, not just given the answer.

Here is the example I was looking for:
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=61024

It is evident the person already has some experience programming (has a foot in the door), and just needs help with this concept.

prog-bman
01-30-2005, 12:52 PM
Here is the best idea ever:
Let people post what they want to post. Let's stop having these retarted discussions on why we should help people more or how we should be nicer to people.
These are the useless posts and are stupid. Geez if people are smart and show effort fine, if they are stupid and are like "pleez post som source" and/or "here's my e-mail could you send me some source". Then they deserve the wraith of whoever feels like flamming them.

andyhunter
01-30-2005, 01:01 PM
Geez if people are smart and show effort fine, if they are stupid and are like "pleez post som source" and/or "here's my e-mail could you send me some source". Then they deserve the wraith of whoever feels like flamming them.


Amen.

Darkness
01-30-2005, 01:03 PM
I see what you're saying, and in a lot of cases finding an ultimatum (which is what you are trying to do) which works in all cases usually simplifies life. However, it is sometimes hard to tell when someone is just lazy and looking for an easy way to do homework, or really is just plain inexperienced and needs help on a stupid problem. To be fair, in a lot of cases it is immediately clear when someone is just lazy, but like I said, not always.

prog-bman
01-30-2005, 01:26 PM
Look. I don't flame people(well I do but it's rare).
But if someone feels that someone is being lazy then let them say "search the board" or "do some work".
If someone else feels they are just a new programmer who is confused let them help them.

If someone is that inexperienced, fine I have no problem helping them or seeing someone else help them.
But I myself and I know many others, we would just like to see their code. It's not that hard for them to post code.

If someone posts with a question with attached code, they will get 100% of my full help(if it's something I know :)).
On the other hand if it is a mundane question with no source they will most likely get a "post some code" or more likely no repsonse from me.
And most likely get some meaner comments from others(which I do enjoy seeing ;)).

I just posted what I posted here because I am really getting sick of seeing these stupid posts in the GD.

Kleid-0
01-30-2005, 02:24 PM
You guys are just jealous because you ain't got the skillz to help people like me lol

VirtualAce
01-30-2005, 03:09 PM
Flame em all...let the mods sort em out.

;)


j/k

KneeGrow
01-30-2005, 04:48 PM
I agree with Kleid on this topic. Most of ya'll should help the noobs instead of flaming people online if they have no clue how to do something. Why do people go like "USE CODE TAGS" every freaking post just to boost their post count when they don't even know how to solve the problem? Like if you don't know how to do the rotations in Tetris and have no clue where to start, it is better to give them the source; a win-win situtation. So instead of being homosexual and tapping away at the negative rep button on everyone, maybe you guys could help beginners by sending them your old code or what not.

Sake
01-30-2005, 04:51 PM
I agree with Kleid on this topic. Most of ya'll should help the noobs instead of flaming people online if they have no clue how to do something. Why do people go like "USE CODE TAGS" every freaking post just to boost their post count when they don't even know how to solve the problem? Like if you don't know how to do the rotations in Tetris and have no clue where to start, it is better to give them the source; a win-win situtation. So instead of being homosexual and tapping away at the negative rep button on everyone, maybe you guys could help beginners by sending them your old code or what not.
A mite bitter are we? ;)

Darkness
01-30-2005, 04:54 PM
Knee, we're all a little homosexual. I'm 9% homosexual for instance. I know for a fact that bubba is 8% homosexual. RoD is 89% homosexual, etc.

What am I really saying? Lay off the drugs dude!

andyhunter
01-30-2005, 04:57 PM
RoD is 89% homosexual,


Just trying to slip that one in there right? :p

Darkness
01-30-2005, 04:59 PM
Hey, at least I didn't make this remark:

"And Andy, our resident sailor, well, let's just put it this way, if the gay scale was an IQ test he'd be a friggin genius"

:)

I'm just playing. You could probably beat me up.

andyhunter
01-30-2005, 05:00 PM
Hey, I am a submariner -- that means I definetly am the gayest guy here! :p

Govtcheez
01-30-2005, 05:02 PM
What was wrong with the other thread about this exact same topic?

andyhunter
01-30-2005, 05:04 PM
Kleid-0 wanted attention so he decided to start his own thread.

Govtcheez
01-30-2005, 05:10 PM
Sounds about right. I don't think I've ever seen one of his posts that doesn't just scream LOOK AT ME!

Darkness
01-30-2005, 05:18 PM
Govt you are so mean and cold hearted.

By the way, I've been having this problem with my programming homework, I'm kinda tired, I was wondering if you could do it for me.

andyhunter
01-30-2005, 05:21 PM
Govt you are so mean and cold hearted.

By the way, I've been having this problem with my programming homework, I'm kinda tired, I was wondering if you could do it for me.


LOL - I am sure Kleid-0 will provide some code. That is as long as you weren't concerned with passing. :p

I would also like to take this time to point out the only other person on Kleid-0's side is another one in the red box gang. Maybe Kleid-0 is their leader. :p

Hunter2
01-30-2005, 05:29 PM
Mm, well, there are reasons to support Kleid's arguments (such as the fact that homework copy-pasters will fail their exams), but I'm sure they've been discussed at length already.

Zach L.
01-30-2005, 05:42 PM
I'd hardly say that the fact that they will fail exams is a reason supporting Kleid-0's position.
a. It doesn't change the fact that you helped them cheat.
b. I don't (and I doubt many here do) want to see these people become bad programmers. It is just that learning requires a lot more effort from the one learning than from anyone else. Simply giving them code is not truly helping them learn, at least at first.
c. To use a cliche: No pain, no gain.

Hunter2
01-30-2005, 06:07 PM
I fully agree with you Zach, but I don't feel like leaving Kleid all alone ;)

kermi3
01-30-2005, 06:14 PM
Ok, I'm probably repeating what other's have said, but I'm going to say it anyway:


Benefits:
- The people who want to learn shall learn
- Less pointless posts
- Helps the poster out because he/she is practicing more
- Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic

Debenefits:
- The question spawner might just copy/paste the code and turn it in.

We answer their questions with extra fulfillment, and we do what they say, even if they don't care about understanding. It's a win-win situation. No more comments like "We're not going to do this assignment for you", we'll be like: "Yes master, it shall be done".

Aaahh this is coming down to one question.

Is it Ok to help others cheat programming? I say yes, as long as you think they really care about understanding it. In the end it helps you understand it, and others that are reading the thread (because they're concerned too). When someone posts the full code, the thread can be hi-jacked, and thus people can prosper from discussing their source.

I completely disagree with you. I think the Homework Announcement sums it up pretty nicely.

As a soon to be teacher - giving them the answer does not teach anything. Perhaps I'm cynical, but it's from expirence. The vast majority of people will cut and paste. If you lead to figuring out the answer you help them learn how to do it....

If you teach a man to fish, you'll feed him for a lifetime. If you let a man watch you fish, you haven't done anything for him.

While it's not policy that you can't give an answer, I think most of the long time posters here, and certainly Alex and I, feel strongly that you shouldn't give away complete answers.

Shadow
01-30-2005, 06:28 PM
Whatever you do Kermi3, please do not teach English. :p

I wish some people would realize that the new people that argue, and go against the grain, OMIGOSH -- didn't make this community. Therefore they are not needed for this community to continue to thrive and grow. This community grew to it's respectable size AND status _because_ of it's strict measuring stick.

In fact, as a fairly intelligent born person(wether I apply it or not I love learning), I feel that a strict measuring stick is more attractive and addicting. YOU JUST HAVE TO measure up to it and overcome the system.

It's challenging and rewarding. :)

I always feel hollow if someone completely does everything for me. :(

kermi3
01-30-2005, 06:35 PM
Whatever you do Kermi3, please do not teach English.

No elementary school or or middle school math/science - and my grammar arn't too bad. Especially when I try...go look at some of my old posts....ouch.

Shadow
01-30-2005, 06:40 PM
No elementary school or or middle school math/science - and my grammer arn't too bad. Especially when I try...go look at some of my old posts....ouch.
You know I have to tease you. :D

CoderBob
01-30-2005, 06:48 PM
Kleid, every single thing you said is wrong or wrong-headed. I shall go through piece by piece and explain so that you can understand.

I believe most of what I will say has been covered earlier. Think of this as a translation.


I believe it is ok if someone asks something like this:

Ok somebody create me a Hello World C Program

This is an exceptional case; there exist plenty of hello world programs available. On the other hand, I would not be inclined to help someone who was so rude as to demand that I write code for them. If you want to be their servant, go ahead.



Right now you're thinking about some options as answers:
[list=1]
STFU

More to the point, you could politely explain why their request is unlikely to be answered.


We don't answer homework problems

This is one reason why a post wouldn't be answered.


Please use code tags

This is silly. They didn't need to use code tags for that post.

<-- snip excessive example -->



My support for this thinking:


As it were.



The first 3 options does not help anyone.

This is almost completely wrong. Option 1 is potentially amusing. Option 2 enforces the norms of the board.

You are, on the other hand, actually correct that Option 3 is useless. I suspect that you didn't intend to be right on this account. (This is why I said everything you wrote was *either* wrong or wrong-headed. This is the wrong-headed part
.)


The 4th option helps you.


If you happen to have never coded the particular sample perhaps. But not if you don't have time, haven't been given sufficient specifications, or find such begging morally offensive (or, minimally, obnoxious. You seem to have issues with understanding this concept.)



If we always use the 4th option this is what we get:
Benefits:
- The people who want to learn shall learn

The goal is to teach them to think, not just the syntax of their program. A good series of questions makes your mind better, not just your memory.



- Less pointless posts


Do you know why you shouldn't give a stray cat milk?



- Helps the poster out because he/she is practicing more


Indeed. Let's hope that this practice elevates their skills to where they can use it in real life by getting their friends to write their code, not just some anonymous forum members.

If, however, you meant that it would help them practice their code, you have not only lost any credit for your previous semi-correct statement, but have now descended into the deep reaches of moral and intellectual offensiveness.

These are harsh words, and for someone like you, who deserves the opportunity to learn, let me give you both an example of how to think and a chance to learn why you are wrong: What, Kleid, are they practicing?

Now, because I do not intend to listen to your silly replies, I shall rebut them in turn.

1) They are practicing coding.

This is patently false. They are practicing begging.

2) They can learn from the code.

This is a so-called teachable moment. I shall not explain precisely why this is incorrect because that would be like writing the whole program for you.

Instead, think about what you do when code is handed to you. Think about how you reply to the arguments I have made that do not ask you to think.

Note, further, that you have two choices: your first choice is to agree with my previous arguments, as they are correct. In this case, you are wrong. Your second choice is to disagree with those arguments, in which case you have demonstrated my point that being given information does not mean it will be assimilated.



- Thread hi-jacking to share intellectual knowledge about the topic


I don't even understand what you intend to say. Do you mean that a pointless thread will be hijacked by intellectuals whereas a relevant thread will be hijacked by RoD? I see no empirical evidence of this fact.



Debenefits:

Use real English. People from other countries read this board, and making up words is disrepectful and potentially confusing.



- The question spawner might just copy/paste the code and turn it in.

A second moment of clarity.

Unfortunately, you later posted this



Is it Ok to help others cheat programming? I say yes, as long as you think they really care about understanding it. In the end it helps you understand it, and others that are reading the thread (because they're concerned too). When someone posts the full code, the thread can be hi-jacked, and thus people can prosper from discussing their source.


As an exercise, apply the principles suggested by this post to deconstructing that statement.

Kleid-0
01-30-2005, 07:02 PM
Well my Mom and I are having hamburgers tonight. I really like hamburgers.

CoderBob
01-30-2005, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry my deconstruction of your point was so long. I'm glad I didn't attack your grammar too!

I should not have given you so many detailed explanations -- as plain as well-commented source code. I think you have demonstrated my point clearly at this stage. Feel free to hijack this thread for the sake of your ego. You obviously don't want to learn.

Shadow
01-30-2005, 07:12 PM
I'm sorry my deconstruction of your point was so long.
I'm not. :D

Zach L.
01-30-2005, 07:19 PM
If you teach a man to fish, you'll feed him for a lifetime. If you let a man watch you fish, you haven't done anything for him.
I believe the correct phrase is: Give a man a fire, and you will keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life. :cool:

Okay... Sorry, I just had to say that.

Kleid-0
01-30-2005, 08:08 PM
I should have 3 red squares, 3 is my favorite number!

axon
01-30-2005, 08:18 PM
wow Kleid-0, you really don't know when to call it quits, do you? Haven't you got plenty already, or are you simply a masochist?

Right now the red squares don't matter, as your reputation, as seen through the eyes of other members, is suffering much more.

cerin
01-30-2005, 09:11 PM
Having asked many questions myself I have problems understanding where some of the examples people give me fit into the code. I've been told to go read the FAQ and I said "It's in C, I don't know it." and in return I got "Don't use that as an excuse you should learn C." I agree with the majority you if you think they are willing to learn go ahead and post the source code. As for me I'm a freshmen in high school and I can't take programming classes, so there wouldn't be any point in copying and pasting. If I keep up on all my credits my computer teacher said that I should be able to go out to the college and take a programming class there, or do an independent study online.

sean
01-30-2005, 09:18 PM
Things like Java certification are certainly an option for you.

Zach L.
01-30-2005, 09:19 PM
>> I said "It's in C, I don't know it." and in return I got "Don't use that as an excuse you should learn C." <<

Well, that was a foolish answer you got from someone. If you are working at learning one language, don't sidetrack to learn another before continuing. However, C and C++ are identical in a lot of the basics. But yeah, it was a foolish response you got.