PDA

View Full Version : Need a clarification here



bithub
12-26-2004, 06:20 PM
This post is regarding the following related closed threads:
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=60077
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=60084

I am still waiting for a clarification from a moderator on why these threads were closed. In the rules it states:


Messages relating to cracking, (erroneously called "hacking" by many), copyright violations, or other illegal activities will be deleted.

Now the questioner is not asking how to crack software. He is not violating any copywrite, and contrary to what sean_mackrory said, he is not asking for anything illegal. There are several very legitimate uses for wanting to be able to view all keyboard input.

In my opinion, the only crime the question asker made was not doing a board search before creating a new topic, as code for doing exactly what he is asking for is on this messageboard already.

sean
12-26-2004, 06:33 PM
There are several very legitimate uses for wanting to be able to view all keyboard input.

Would you care to name some of these?

Even if legitimate purposes do exist, it is extremely suspicious when someone calls it a 'spytool' and then retracts their choice of words.

Collecting keyboard input is not illegal. Breaching privacy without the victim's knowledge is illegal in many countries. I'd also point out that software is not the only thing one can 'crack'. You can crack into people's computers and use it for a malicious purpose. That's very similar to what spyware is.

prog-bman
12-26-2004, 06:44 PM
Tottally agree with sean. If there is a need for you to track key strokes for a non evil reason then you should be smart enough to figure out how to track keystrokes.

bithub
12-26-2004, 06:48 PM
Would you care to name some of these?
Sure. I've created a commercial app which runs in the background. The menu is brought up by pressing a key sequence since the client did not want an icon in the system tray. In order to catch this key sequence, a keyboard hook must be installed.

Another application would be microsoft's spy++ application which comes with visual c++.

Also you could read the thread at http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=58517 for someone else that needed a keyboard hook.


Collecting keyboard input is not illegal
I agree, so why was the thread closed? If a mod is going to close a thread which does not break any of the posted rules, I would think an explanation would be in order.


Breaching privacy without the victim's knowledge is illegal in many countries.
So is hitting someone over the head with a hammer, but we dont outlaw hammers, we outlaw hitting someone over the head with a hammer.

I'm not trying to cause to cause trouble, but I (along with many other people I'm sure) first started learning about windows hooks with simple applications like keyloggers.

bithub
12-26-2004, 06:51 PM
If there is a need for you to track key strokes for a non evil reason then you should be smart enough to figure out how to track keystrokes.
That logic doesn't even make sense.

bithub
12-26-2004, 06:53 PM
Also I would appreciate it if the people that are giving me red marks for this post at least give their name. I would like to know who deems it necessary to give bad rep to someone asking for a clarification.

sean
12-26-2004, 06:56 PM
In order to catch this key sequence, a keyboard hook must be installed.Alright, I'll accept that, but my argument about him calling it a spytool earlier still applies.

I agree, so why was the thread closed? If a mod is going to close a thread which does not break any of the posted rules, I would think an explanation would be in order.Did you even read the next sentence?

So is hitting someone over the head with a hammer, but we dont outlaw hammers, we outlaw hitting someone over the head with a hammer.Ah, but we do make it illegal to threaten to hit someone with a hammer that's been used to hit people before.

I'm not trying to cause to cause trouble, but I (along with many other people I'm sure) first started learning about windows hooks with simple applications like keyloggers.I'll wager you never accidentally called your test program a "spytool for personal security use".

I'm not trying to cause to cause troubleThen you you would do well to avoid using the word 'hooks' around him. That's the biggest clue to how to create a keylogger.

Darkness
12-26-2004, 06:58 PM
Sure. I've created a commercial app which runs in the background. The menu is brought up by pressing a key sequence since the client did not want an icon in the system tray. In order to catch this key sequence, a keyboard hook must be installed.


Ballackz was writing a spytool. Nobody believes it was really for 'personal use' or whatever.

sean
12-26-2004, 07:00 PM
Nobody believes it was really for 'personal use' or whatever.

Oh I wouldn't say NOBODY ;)

Darkness
12-26-2004, 07:00 PM
Okay okay fair point. None of the moderators :)

edit:
anyway Bith, you can argue your point until your head falls off. The real problem here is that somebody very well may be cracked into by this little script kiddie. What he wants is, unfortunately, not really all that hard to do (read someone's password from MSN messenger, or something of the like). Subsequently, we're going to make him figure it out on his own :)

prog-bman
12-26-2004, 07:06 PM
How does my logic not make sense. Did you see the apps that you wrote that needed the use of a keylogger. A background app that the user didn't want on a toolbar that used a hook to log keystrokes. I mean seriously if your smart enough to write a background app then you should be smart enough to figure out to write a keylogger. How does this not make sense. I don't even know how to do it or have a need to(yet). I am just saying you don't go on a message board asking how to log keys without even saying what methods you have tried showing your not some random person who wants to write some malicious software.

Darkness
12-26-2004, 07:08 PM
Prog, I don't believe Bith is the one that wants to be able to read the keyboard input of all applications. I'm guessing that Bith actually *can* do that. For some reason, however, Bith is arguing against the closing of ballackz threads. They must've been homies or something *shrug*

prog-bman
12-26-2004, 07:10 PM
I know he was just saying my logic didn't make sense.

bithub
12-26-2004, 07:28 PM
They must've been homies or something *shrug*
Nope, dont know the guy or care to.


How does my logic not make sense
I guess I should have explained myself here. Your statement implied that if someone needs to do something, then they should have the knowledge to figure it out on their own. If that were true, then what would be the point of a messageboard in the first place? Obviously I'm oversimplifying to a degree, but my point stands. I guess I understand your view here here (Only someone with a certain amount of programming expertise would ever need to perform this sort of task), but I disagree. The first keylogging application I listed was one of the first win32 programs I wrote (I was a linux man for a long time). I do apologize for saying your statement didn't make sense without explaining myself though.


I mean seriously if your smart enough to write a background app then you should be smart enough to figure out to write a keylogger
All a background app is, is a win32 program which doesn't create a window. It's actually easier to do than a non-background application :)


Oh I wouldn't say NOBODY
Your implied statement here is correct. I guess I did believe the guy :)

Darkness
12-26-2004, 08:04 PM
I suggest you all save the calories you would have otherwise spent typing long messages arguing the case, because there are two things I'm sure of:

a) the thread is closed (scientific observation)
b) nobody is going to open it (gut instinct)

tata

sean
12-26-2004, 08:09 PM
Well he's only asking for an explanation why, and I think he makes a good point regarding progb-man's 'logic'.

ballackz
12-26-2004, 10:14 PM
omg, what are you dictators? let poeple speak out. in my opinion the moderator is just ignorant, and wont listen. I told you that my statement was wrong in my second thread. i said spytool because i didnt know what else to call it,(im also from a country which poeple dont speak english) as bithub said there is a tool which comes with msvc called spy++,i had that in mind when i posted that thread. perhaps now you see that it was an innocent statement.
ive also got 1 of those red "saying you are a fool"
there are alot of flamers in this forum as i knew from before.
moderators, isnt flaming also against the rules.

also prog-bman with that logic it would be wise to stop programming, because programming needs at least some logic :(
you probably thought i was a noob and didnt pay any attention, but the truth is ive been a member since 2000 and this is just a second nick ive made recently.

one more thing, you should start doing your job and stop abusing your status as moderators

RoD
12-26-2004, 10:17 PM
Fortunate for us, your opinion doesnt matter, nor does it change or impact our forums guidelines. Sit down, shut up, and obey our forum's staff. If this is something you cant shut up and do, move on.

Its that simple. Shut up, or leave.

Kleid-0
12-26-2004, 10:44 PM
I think we should be a little more light on keyloggers, as long as we educate them on what happens if they get put it on someone elses machine. If they get caught, that can be like 10 years in prison if they're over 18. Also, the motivation is great, people don't even care about learning curves being dealt with when creating something illegal on their computer (thus learning programming is like at 500% efficiency), because of that beautiful feeling deep within the tummy, like you've just ate a warm cup cake with hot coacoa. Now I want a cup of hot coacoa...

RoD
12-26-2004, 11:01 PM
No, we shouldnt. They want to learn about those types of programs than fine, go to those types of programming websites. We dont need to change, we need to rid stupid people.

Kleid-0
12-26-2004, 11:48 PM
We dont need to change, we need to rid stupid people.
That's what Hitler said while killing over 6 million jews!

ballackz
12-26-2004, 11:49 PM
i know i must follow the rules( im not stupid maybe you are but im not:p)
and i thought i did, the only mistake i can think of that i made was that i called my application a spytool. go to MSDN and read 2 pages i promise you, you will find 5 stuff that could be considered a hacking tool or a spytool IF they somehow moved to someone elses computer.
but NO even the GIANT Microsoft, knows that they must let users to make their own programs, so you must start thinking like them.

if i had said "help me make a program that sends itself to my worst enemys computer and takes all his stuff and bring them back to me"
then i could agree with you.
and i never asked for any code, i just wanted to know some basics
so you could have waited a bit more and close it IF someone posted hacking related text.
i can understand why you closed the first but not the second
if you say you are sadam hussein and everyone here must obey you
and cant talk back- then ill take it- pack and leave!
if youre not explain why you closed both threads, thank you!

RoD
12-27-2004, 12:05 AM
just STFU and leave jesus f'n christ.

prog-bman
12-27-2004, 12:19 AM
Bah. I hate when I try to explain myself it never works out but anyways.
oh and I do know how easy it is to make a "background" window :)


ShowWindow(hwnd,SW_HIDE);

oh and Rod how many times do we have to tell you to stop being like hitler geez. :)

RoD
12-27-2004, 12:24 AM
yea im a nazi loving programmer hating assmuncher.

prog-bman
12-27-2004, 12:36 AM
But in all seriousness. That is just the way it is around here.
Random people who ask how to make keyloggers here, are going to get flamed and they are going get their thread closed.

Kleid-0
12-27-2004, 12:44 AM
But that's too conservative here. I mean like the constitution, founded by our fathers. People support their rules by saying things like: "our fathers are right" blah blah blah! But they're dead! Who cares about dead people! So what are we waiting for! Let's start posting tutorials on how to create key loggers!!! :) .........

RoD
12-27-2004, 12:49 AM
its a conservitive forum, get the I am sillyI am sillyI am sillyI am silly over it

Thantos
12-27-2004, 12:49 AM
Let me explain this as nicely as I know how:
This isn't a democracy. Alex (aka webmaster) pours time and money into this board. He allows us to use this great site at no charge. Since this is his site he can make up any rule he wants. Certain moderators were selected to enforce the rules that were set. If you don't like your ........ ant thread getting locked PM kermi3 or webmaster and complain your little heart out.
If you don't like the rules, leave.

Kleid-0
12-27-2004, 12:53 AM
I was being sarcastic... :mad:

webmaster
12-27-2004, 01:06 AM
As Thantos said, if you want to continue this discussion, please PM me. Otherwise, I sense that this is just going to turn into a nasty flame war.

The short explanation is that we are pretty conservative about topics related to cracking because we get a lot of kids who come by looking for that sort of thing. The decision about whether a poster has a legitimate need to do something that sounds sketchy tends to get made based on presentation. In this case, the presentation sounded sketchy. I admit that this isn't necessarily the best heuristic to use (it's arguably a bit unfair to non-native speakers), but it's fairly practical.