PDA

View Full Version : Satan



Pages : [1] 2

Unregistered
11-23-2001, 09:12 AM
I was just thinking that no one have ever proved,
that the Satan is male. Maby he's female?
//<LOL>Or maby shemale?</LOL>(Don't care about this line...)

What do you think about it?

IcyDeath
11-23-2001, 09:30 AM
I'm the one who started this tread, but as usual I forgot to login.

But I'm truely interested to know, what are you thinking about that?:confused:

Nick
11-23-2001, 09:44 AM
No, he's not human thus he can't be male or female.

oskilian
11-23-2001, 10:00 AM
I don't know, since the bible never says anything about the devil's gender....

Well, it hardly says anything at all about the devil, it says that the devil is inside you, not the guy, just evil. Evil is inside you and you must not let it grow.

Welll, that's what I think it says.

But I don't beleive in any of this devil crap


Oskilian

gnu-ehacks
11-23-2001, 11:52 AM
Actually, not even God has a gender. The Bible implies that God is male, because they have to put it into human terms. God is a spirit, therefore he has no gender. No spirit, including the devil, has a gender.

IcyDeath
11-24-2001, 05:56 AM
>>But I don't beleive in any of this devil crap.
That's the right attitude!:D

You could concider of joining to the "Tuxists".;)

LOL

Fordy
11-24-2001, 06:14 AM
>>Well, it hardly says anything at all about the devil, it says that the devil is inside you, not the guy, just evil.

Yeah...

I personally dont believe in the devil...........to me i give it the same credence as Brothers Grim, Babylon 5 and Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory........

If evil does exist (and thats another argument) then it's personal, not some evil charactor with horns and a goaty beard.....

Gades_GD
11-24-2001, 07:19 AM
If you're talking about a "satan" from the Catholic church, I bet they'd say that stan is female. Hundreds years ago, this church didn't consider the woman as a human (for example abortion was OK, because women were kind like animals). And at the beginning of their history, the woman was the one bringing the bad "stuff". I'm sure that they'd associate satan with a woman more than with a man.


All I know from this religion if from some of their books (quite old), that I've read. Yeap, sometimes I read fiction.


BTW, I'm atheist, but I respect anyone to choose their religion, even the Telaban (or however you spell it), even I don't agree with them.

dirkduck
11-24-2001, 11:11 AM
im already a tuxist ;). well, technically i consider my self an atheist, so i dont believe in the devil....but i have to go with shemale ;)

oskilian
11-24-2001, 07:50 PM
so what is a tuxist, anyway?

I don't beleive that the devil is a horned guy either, but I also don't beleive that God is a bearded man up there in heaven and sitting in a throne, I think that people have good (notice both o's) and evil in their own self, and when we use one or the other, we blame one of these characters, I think that's unfair, I think that we're responsible of our own actions.

Oskilian

Nick
11-24-2001, 09:44 PM
If you're talking about a "satan" from the Catholic church, I bet they'd say that stan is female. Hundreds years ago, this church didn't consider the woman as a human (for example abortion was OK, because women were kind like animals).

No abortion was never OK.

Pendragon
11-25-2001, 04:43 AM
The Devil is who we want him/her/it to be.

We see evil apparently as a big red chap with horns and a forked tail, huge muscles and a massive inferiority complex. This is what some people believe so that is what he/she/it must be to comply with those beliefs.

He/she/it is normally depicted as being male as that would seem to be slightly more menacing. I don't want to speculate on the subject of gender because I believe human fault lies with us and not this big red bloke. But anyway... it's a subject for more speculation though it doesn't seem to be an argument that can be resolved easily if ever.

Pendragon

Series X4 1.0
11-25-2001, 05:09 AM
I don't believe in Satan, I believe in evil.

Death is here to crush our lifes, and there is nothing we can do about it. Time is our enemy. The only thing we can do is to hate this crap.

Ignorance is bliss.

Unregistered
11-25-2001, 05:18 AM
Hmm... you have an 'interesting' outlook on life and the world. Is the world so bad that you need to show it so much contempt?

-Pendragon

Pendragon
11-25-2001, 05:33 AM
Argle.

Didn't log in.

-P-p-p-p-p-endragon

Series X4 1.0
11-25-2001, 08:23 AM
Pendragon

Is the world so bad that you need to show it so much contempt?


Yes, the core of mankind is just emptiness and darkness. All the lights we are creating in this darkness are fading lies. The truth of all lies, and all life, is death.

We are all being 'used' by the evolution. All your feelings are instincts, they are there to control you, you're a robot - if you learn to understand yourself you'll go to 'hell'.

Pendragon
11-25-2001, 09:13 AM
SeriesX4 1.0
Yes, the core of mankind is just emptiness and darkness. All the lights we are creating in this darkness are fading lies. The truth of all lies, and all life, is death.

We are all being 'used' by the evolution. All your feelings are instincts, they are there to control you, you're a robot - if you learn to understand yourself you'll go to 'hell'.

That's good old SeriesX4 1.0. Always looking on the bright side.
;) :D

-Pendragon

Series X4 1.0
11-25-2001, 10:12 AM
Always looking on the bright side.


Just like you then, Pendragon.

Can I ask you something? (Here you're telling me "yes"!). :p

What's your relation to David McCabe (the genius)? I never really got that part... Please tell me! Sibling or girlfriend?

Pendragon
11-25-2001, 10:56 AM
(Here you're telling me "yes"!).

Here I'm telling you "no"...

Series X4 1.0
11-25-2001, 12:05 PM
:( Can't you just send me a PM with the answer?

Yes, of course you can! :) I believe in you Pendragon, and you really want to send Series X a private message! :) Am I not right?

gnu-ehacks
11-25-2001, 01:19 PM
Series, you are THE most disturbing person I've ever seen on this board, and note that I had a screen name before this one. You have such a negative outlook on this world. You should have some faith in it.

You say death is here to crush our lives. Well, why do you believe that? Do you know what happens after death? If you don't, you have no right at all to say that. In my belief(Christianity), death begins a greater life, HEAVEN. Even if you don't believe that, you have to believe in something, because anhilation after death is just not logical.

Series X4 1.0
11-25-2001, 02:45 PM
gnu-ehacks

Series, you are THE most disturbing person I've ever seen on this board


Good, I think that's fun. Mybe you'll learn something from me, and then you can help me and 'Satan' to make this world a better place.


Do you know what happens after death? If you don't, you have no right at all to say that.


In my opinion I have more rights than you have (for one thing I have the right to say what I want). In my belief-system death will kill us. In your belief-system, death will reborn you into a greater life. You 'need' to bee nice and follow your internal rules, I don't.


death begins a greater life, HEAVEN. Even if you don't believe that, you have to believe in something


I don't have to do anything. Too bad for you, isn't it? I'm free and dead, and you're just a fading lie.

lightatdawn
11-25-2001, 03:10 PM
Series, you are THE most disturbing person I've ever seen on this board


Most people seem to think so... But personally i enjoy most of the exchanges between him and others. He always has a completly different opinion on the subject. Plus its interesting to observe other people reactions to these opinions. I rarely (or quite possibly never) agree with him but its always interesting.

I'm not going to volunteer an opinion on the subject at hand though... Been there done that; Rather not take part in what invariably degenerates into a flame war.

gnu-ehacks
11-25-2001, 05:26 PM
How can you not believe in something? What is life to you?

BTW, I retract saying that you have no right. You do. That's freedom, something I BELIEVE in. Well, have fun with some more flames at me. =)

novacain
11-25-2001, 10:29 PM
Just my opinion.

>>In my opinion I have more rights than you have (for one thing I have the right to say what I want). In my belief-system death will kill
us. In your belief-system, death will reborn you into a greater life. You 'need' to bee nice and follow your internal rules, I don't.

Correct.
As religion was created by the lazy and rich.

Hear me out.
In the begining, pick any culture, we started to get a surplus of food. As not all of our time was devoted to survival we could ask the eternal question.
WHY?

Some smart guy realised he could stay at home and be fed/respected if he could answer the big question.
In the middle ages it changed to a form of repression so the masses did not rise against the few who had all. Look at the feudal system and tell me what kept the masses from revolting?

Now we have TV and media spin. Religion is not needed as we are seduced by the the idea we have the ability to get rich/happy/famous. Look at the TV evangelists, we get them here (US ones) in Aus, late night, 'send me money for your eternal love'. Even religion has sold out to the new god, MEDIA.

What will be he next generations religion if ours is the TV/dollar?

>>death begins a greater life, HEAVEN. Even if you don't believe that, you have to believe in something
NO you don't. You have to make the tough choice, throw away your crutch.
After this there is NOTHING. Get used to it. We live, we die. Start living for the life between, not for the life after or you might find you missed it.

Why are we so conceited that we have to believe that there is a higher purpose to this? That we are destined for higher things?

PS I was raised a Methodist. Went to church everyday until I was 17.

gnu-ehacks
11-26-2001, 12:08 AM
novacain, if you don't believe in anything, why try and convince me that you are right? Also, what does a right have to do with religion? That's just being religiously biased, which is wrong no matter what you believe in. If you don't have morals, then you have nothing to live for. What do you believe is the purpose of life, if we are to just be gone?

The V.
11-26-2001, 12:29 AM
I will stick my $0.02 in. I'm simply a pragmatist. I realize I can never know, until I die, whether there is a life after this one. But, I do know something -- I have THIS life, and THIS world, so I should enjoy what I know I have. When I die, I'll find out if I get anything more. Until then, it's a moot point, because however the universe may be, I certainly have no power to change it.

And, I think my life has equal meaning whether or not there is an afterlife. Just because something ends doesn't make it pointless. Just because my life may not fit into some grand plan, and just because I may simply cease to exist doesn't mean I can't have meaning, purpose, etc. when I'm alive.

I don't require a greater whole for my life to be meaningful -- I find meaning in my life itself, I find reason to live for myself, for my dreams, for those I love. If I get another life (reincarnation, heaven, or whatever) I'll handle that life in exactly the same way.

I find believing in either heaven OR the lack of heaven to be unnecessary. Neither belief can be proven, and neither disproven. And believing either way won't change the fact that exactly one belief is right, and nobody knows which one.

Further, the issue of whether or not there is an afterlife has no bearing on how I conduct myself in this one. I have morals, not based on religion, but based on the desire to help others. I don't act good in the hopes of a better world than this, I act good because I hope to make this world better. If there is no god/heaven, I've still had a life filled with meaning and purpose. If there is a god/heaven, then surely I've done well by them as well -- as what greater compliment is there to any artist than one who seeks to fully admire and appreciate their work?

So, because the existence or absence of heaven/god really doesn't affect how I will conduct myself on earth, I'll live my life, and one day I will die, and then I will experience for myself whatever is beyond. Until then, I'm perfectly happy to hold no opinions at all.

novacain
11-26-2001, 03:23 AM
gnu-ehacks, I am not trying to convince you of anything. As I said at the top of the post, my opinion.

Prahaps it because I think that too many evil deeds are done under the guise/protection of religion. Could be I think you deserve the right to come to your own conclusions as I did.

My epiphany came in Nepal. I was talking to the Crazy Baba (holyman) of Singapore. He cut an inch of his left arm each year to prove he did not need worldly goods. When I met him he was past the elbow.
What if his religion/belief was yours( or mainstream), would you cut your arm off bit by bit to gain eternal happiness in the afterlife? (It is only a step from eating the flesh of Christ)
What is to say that his theory of the religion is less valid than mine / yours / any-other?

>>What do you believe is the purpose of life, if we are to just be gone?
That is the point. Live for HERE & NOW. Nothing else. Treat all with the respect that you expect until they prove they are not worthy of your respect.

Why do you feel that there HAS to be a higher propose?

Fordy
11-26-2001, 03:44 AM
Just like to say that Novacain.......I totally agree with you....

I was raised a Christian...went to a Christain school (cuz my freinds went there) and it convinced me of one thing......this holy rolling crap is not for me.......

We live...we reproduce...we get old and we die........end of story.....sure we all want to beleive that death is only a beginning.......its harder to realise that this is it.....no more...no sequel.....no rerun......

Religion was probably the most effective control of civilisation ever imagined...."We treat you like an animal all your life and you will be rewarded in heaven"......yeah right!!!!....for me the fact it is around still today backs this up

Series X4 1.0
11-26-2001, 07:37 AM
gnu-ehacks

How can you not believe in something? What is life to you?


For each individual human being, life is to be trapped in a dying, aging body, programmed with lies to make us act as we are 'told'. Except for all the lies, we're filled with the greatest of emptiness. Together our bodies form the evolution - which is a war, a chaos, in which we are dying and being sorted out to find the most efficient offspring, to be replaced with the next generation of life. This will lead mankind somewhere, but we are temporary, we are here in a primitive stage of the evolution.

IcyDeath
11-26-2001, 07:41 AM
>>so what is a tuxist, anyway?

Tuxists were my GREAT idea. Our god is the great Tux (LOL).
Instead of heaven people go to the great computer, where exists no bugs and neither the 'bluescreen'.
Truely speaking I was so bored (and full of hate to the Windows(c,r,tm,etc.)) that I got this crazy idea. It's to make a new religion. To register it there has to be at least 20 members and now there are already 3 of them. ;):p

Would you like to join us?
At least you could make up some rules etc. for this "religion"

The V.
11-26-2001, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Series X4 1.0


For each individual human being, life is to be trapped in a dying, aging body, programmed with lies to make us act as we are 'told'. Except for all the lies, we're filled with the greatest of emptiness. Together our bodies form the evolution - which is a war, a chaos, in which we are dying and being sorted out to find the most efficient offspring, to be replaced with the next generation of life. This will lead mankind somewhere, but we are temporary, we are here in a primitive stage of the evolution.

If it is true that there is no heaven or hell, that we are simply bodies and the soul merely a name for something within the body, then you still fail to approach the situation in a positive manner.

There are many ways to have meaning in life, even if we will fade into oblivion. Nietzsche argued in Zarathustra that we can find meaning by making the evolution of the superman (the next step in human evolution, essentially) the purpose of our lives. He argues that evolution is the true driving force of humanity, and that mankind, like our ape ancestors, is a thing to be surpassed; not the final ebb of the tide of evolution, but a part of it.

I would argue that you can have meaning even without this. A life does not need to fit into a larger whole to have meaning -- you can CREATE meaning. Simply because something ceases to exist hardly means that it was meaningless. Live your life for the meaning that you ascribe to it.

If, however, you reject the meaning that people try to teach you, and then you fail to create meaning for yourself, you can't complain, in good faith, that your life is meaningless. Yes, it is meaningless, because you created no meaning for yourself. A meaning which we give to ourselves is no less grand than a meaning that the universe gives to us. Meaning does not need to exist outside of ourselves for it to be.

You are empty because you do not create. Like a creator, you have rejected those ideas given you, but you do not make your own to replace them, and so you suffer in the emptiness you fail to fill. Life is empty? Yes, life is empty when you have chosen to empty it, and refuse to fill it anew. But life need not be empty, unless you choose it to be.

Camilo
11-26-2001, 11:24 AM
as simple as this:
¿who needs meaning?
- nothing has meaning


Camilo

Series X4 1.0
11-26-2001, 11:27 AM
The V.

If it is true that there is no heaven or hell, that we are simply bodies and the soul merely a name for something within the body, then you still fail to approach the situation in a positive manner.


Of course I fail, but only from your positive and personal way of thinking. And you fail to see your life in a realistic and negative manner.


I would argue that you can find meaning even without this. A life does not need to fit into a larger whole to have meaning -- you can CREATE meaning.


You're talking about the meaning of life as it's something I havn't seen, something I should discover. I've been there, we all have I guess, do you remember how it was to be a little kid? The world was rich because we were small. With insight and as we gain experience, those values dies. When (if) you're 80, the world you live in will probably be completely empty, death will seem just as pointless as life. Some of us can realize this too fast for our own good, it's 'supposed' to happen when you're old.

You can fight, but you'll always lose. Everything you are creating is dying.

The V.
11-26-2001, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Series X4 1.0


Of course I fail, but only from your positive and personal way of thinking. And you fail to see your life in a realistic and negative manner.



You're talking about the meaning of life as it's something I havn't seen, something I should discover. I've been there, we all have I guess, do you remember how it was to be a little kid? The world was rich because we were small. With insight and as we gain experience, those values dies. When (if) you're 80, the world you live in will probably be completely empty, death will seem just as pointless as life. Some of us can realize this too fast for our own good, it's 'supposed' to happen when you're old.

You can fight, but you'll always lose. Everything you are creating is dying.

Every created thing perishes -- the transient nature of life, of created things in no way diminishes the need to create, nor does it diminish the benefits of creation in general. The building I live in will one day fall, yet it provides a purpose when it exists. The clothes that I wear will not last forever, yet when they do exist, they protect my body.

Realism is not necessarily negative. You claim I say to "discover meaning" -- I never do this; this implies that meaning exists beyond yourself, that you must "find". I think this is a flawed approach. I think that it is possible that there is a meaning to the universe, but I do not require such a meaning for my beliefs.

Rather, I take the realistic approach that there is no meaning inherent in the universe, at least none that I am capable of understanding. Does this mean that there CAN BE no meaning in my life? Hardly. What I argue you should do, is not discover meaning, but CREATE meaning. Build a meaning for your own life. You won't "find" it, because it doesn't exist "out there". So, your choices are to borrow the meanings that other people have created, or to create a new meaning for yourself.

The world, for you, is empty because you empty it by your own will. You will never "find" meaning, and so you conclude that meaning doesn't exist. But you CHOOSE to live in a world without meaning, because you choose to reject the meaning that others have provided, and you choose not to make meaning for yourself.

Meaning is just as real if you make it as if you could find it. You'll never "find" a skyscraper except for those which we (humans) have made, but this doesn't mean that skyscrapers are not real because they do not exist in the absence of humanity. In the same way, a meaning which is the creation of humanity is no less real than a meaning which exists in the absence of humanity, if such a thing could even exist.

Your argument is basically that:

A) You can have no meaning because every created thing perishes. It is true that everything created will perish, but it doesn't mean that creating is a foolish or unnecessary pursuit -- rather, it means creating is EVEN MORE necessary, because one must create to replace that which has fallen.

B) You can't find any meaning if you look to the universe. This is probably true, but it certainly doesn't stop you from creating a new meaning that you give to yourself.

Also, death, destruction, and chaos are not negatives. Without them, creation is impossible, because the destruction of created things creates room for creation.

You may say, there is no permanence, there is no higher purpose, there is nothing which can be created which will endure forever. I say, you're right. But this in no way invalidates life, or living, or meaning.

You look at life, and you find that it is empty, and in its emptiness you despair. I look at life, find that it is empty, so I create things to fill it, and I enjoy life and living.

Betazep
11-26-2001, 01:06 PM
Well thought out... well put... and a very good philosophy, V. We should have more people like you in this world.

gnu-ehacks
11-26-2001, 08:32 PM
Series, I respect your belief. If you believe that there is no life after death, and that we all are just rotting flesh, who am I to protest that? Although, that doesn't have to be so negative. There are many evolutionists out there who believe the same thing that you believe, but you might as well enjoy life while you still have it, or you might as well be dead.

I apologize if I've offended you, and I feel like this discussion is useless, because all we are doing is trying to prove our beliefs, and I'm pretty sure I can't convince you that my beliefs are true, and I'm pretty sure that you can't convince me that your beliefs are true, so I'm just going to bow out, unless I find something really good to say.

novacain
11-26-2001, 10:02 PM
One last thing.
Anyone heard of the Jerusalem Syndrome?

Some people who go to Jerusalem start to believe they are Jesus Christ reincarnated.
Usually it wears off in a couple of days but some take years. Most are just very embarased after the fact.

It is so wide spead that there is a clinic to deal with it.

Point being

(faith = hope - proof ) == TRUTH

gnu-ehacks
11-26-2001, 10:39 PM
Yeah...I heard of Jerusalem Syndrome. Might I say, it must be some strange thing.

Now, I have a question. Is it just Jerusalem, or is it all of Israel? The reason I ask this is because Israel has very many religious sites, away from Jerusalem.

novacain
11-27-2001, 02:15 AM
You mean say the Mecca Syndrome?

The Varanasi(?) / Gangies (?) Syndrome?

Could be.

Maybe Christians are just less stable than others.
(kidding)

Fordy
11-27-2001, 03:46 AM
>>Anyone heard of the Jerusalem Syndrome?


Yeah...its supposedly quite common....

I think I heard that David Koresh (sp?) spent some time in jarusalem and returned as the son of god

cody
11-27-2001, 03:53 AM
Hmm I think the devil *has* a gender. God is female and looks exactly like Alanis Morisette, so the devil as counterpart must be male :)

Go and see "Dogma", then you'll understand ;)

aloa
cody

nvoigt
11-27-2001, 06:31 AM
>If you don't have morals, then you have nothing to live for.

There seems to be a fundamental difference between morals and
religion. While I know many people who are more-or-less-christians
( maybe agnostics would be the right word ) and who live by our
values and morals that are widely accepted in about any civilized
culture, I also see people who are so blinded by their religion
that they don't adhere to the most basic morals civilisation has to
offer: thou shall not kill. This is christian commandment #1, but I
guess all other major religions and peoples recognize this as well.
No civilisation would have evolved without this fundamental law in
place. And the only people breaking this law are criminals and
religious fanatics.


Being agnostic myself, I don't believe there exist the guy with the
white beard nor the guy with the tail and fork heating up hell.
I don't know if there is a higher force that created us. Maybe there
is. If there is, physics state that there never is a single force.
Every action forces a reaction. So maybe there is a destructive
force as well. Whatever comes, we will only see when we die.
From my point of view, it's highly speculative to blindly believe
it will get better after death. You have a life to live right now.
If you don't use it, don't complain later in case there is no second
chance. There is enough good and evil here on earth to be occupied
for a lifetime.


>because anhilation after death is just not logical.

Sorry to correct you, but annihilation after death is what is proven.
Just look into a grave. Your believe is the illogical part, because
there is no clue it is correct. Mind, I'm not saying you are wrong.
I'm just saying you just can't prove it.


>In my opinion I have more rights than you have

No. You have the same rights as every other person. It's just that
people with more restrictive religious guidelines don't use their
rights to the full extend, while people with less restrictive
rules tend to overstep their bounds frequently and maybe even
without noticing.


>we are here in a primitive stage of the evolution

While you might be right, you aren't drawing the logical conclusions.
Being a part of this evolution, you wouldn't be able to see whether
it's still in a primitive stage. It could also be just a single step
from the perfect end.


>Except for all the lies,

You are talking about believes. You both have an oppinion about what is
the truth. As neither of you has proof, you cannot decide if one of
you is lying. But as in any discussion, both of you are screaming 'liar'.


>You can fight, but you'll always lose. Everything you are creating is dying.

Well, without fighting you have already lost. If you try, you have a fighting
chance. And after all, some made it. Caesar died. But in our minds, he's still
alive. Shakespeare is no less dead than the next body. But his creations are
still struggling *g* If you need a meaning in your life, go get one. If you
don't, stop complaining.

Series X4 1.0
11-27-2001, 07:26 AM
nvoigt

>In my opinion I have more rights than you have

No. You have the same rights as every other person.


Yes, according to some people, including you of course. What people have the right to do depends in general on themselves in my opinion. Religous people, as an example, are always limited because of their internal rules, some of them can not even allow themselves to get drunk, for example. Therefore I have more rights than most people because basicly I don't have a moral. They say I don't have the right to kill someone, but I can do it anyway, therfore I have that right.


>we are here in a primitive stage of the evolution

While you might be right, you aren't drawing the logical conclusions.
Being a part of this evolution, you wouldn't be able to see whether
it's still in a primitive stage. It could also be just a single step
from the perfect end.


It is primitive because I can see another world.


>Except for all the lies,

You are talking about believes. You both have an oppinion about what is
the truth. As neither of you has proof, you cannot decide if one of
you is lying. But as in any discussion, both of you are screaming 'liar'.


Which is your opinion, according to your own view you can also be the liar (in my opinion) - this argument can always be applied, therefore, the one with the strongest will is often going to 'win' and affect the others - and so far, that person is always me.

The V.
11-27-2001, 12:22 PM
It's humorous to read your posts, at times, Series.

You claim to have more powerful of a will than everyone else, yet by your statements you also do a good job of proving yourself wrong. Only a fool has no morals -- morals are nothing more than part of the way we define ourselves, they are a code we try to live by. If you truly have no morals, no code by which you live, then you obviously don't have a very strong will -- a strong will shapes the self, molds the self into the form you desire. Morals are simply an extension of self control, which is the hallmark of any strong will.

Further, any strong willed person will be a creator -- you have already proven your inability to create; you choose to suffer in emptiness instead of creating to fill it.

Listening to you speak of your superiority reminds me of watching a homeless man scream out that he was the King of England, and more powerful than the passersby. Yet he still sleeps on the cold streets, and we do not. Similarly, you can proclaim your superiority, but you still have to live a life which, by your own words, is empty and free of morals.

Further, if you were truly intellectually superior, you would realize that death, decay, morals, etc. are not harmful things; in fact, each is vital. A person who imposes no rules upon his own actions has no self-control, because to have self-control is to divide the possible actions you could do into actions you should do, and actions you should not. In this way, anyone with self control will find certain actions "good" and others "bad".

It's rather sophomoric to simply equate things like death, morality, transience, etc. with being "bad", and things like freedom with being "good". Taken to extremes, each of these is bad. Each, however, is a vital part of life, and must be present in appropriate quantities. You fail to acknowledge that these ideas are complex, and interact with each other, and form many shades of gray.

A person with no morals, nor laws, nor any kind of rule to constrain his freedom is no better than an animal. Absolute freedom comes at the cost of total lack of self control, and total lack of a will. Absolute enslavement is torment to the will. Somewhere in between absolute freedom and absolute enslavement is the path of the truly wise. They control themselves, they constrain their actions in a manner of their choosing, while retaining the freedoms they need and desire.

IcyDeath
11-28-2001, 04:57 AM
I think, that the religion is for the weak people, for those who don't belive in theirselves.

Am I right?

Series X4 1.0
11-28-2001, 05:42 AM
The V.

a strong will shapes the self, molds the self into the form you desire.


There is no relation between shaping yourself and a strong will, it depends only on what kind of will you have. The human brain is a neural net, everything you define is based on the structure of your brain and what you've learned in your life. Your current moral is a set of lies, because the probability that your moral will be proven wrong, and with time also completely disappear, is very big. Look back in history, most of the morals people had a few hundred years ago are already gone. This cycle will not stop, even your beliefs are fading. There is only one thing that is not a lie: Death.


Morals are simply an extension of self control, which is the hallmark of any strong will.


We all have just a strong self control, your self-control is based on emotions, mine is based on emptiness. Your moral is already judged. Brought to life, then crushed to dust.


Further, any strong willed person will be a creator


Everything you create is something we can destroy. You're just like me, but so far below - reaching for the darkness with insight.


you would realize that death, decay, morals, etc. are not harmful things


Darkness is always harmful against your kind. Just look how you complain and suffer as fast as one of you sees their destiny. If you accepted that, you wouldn't be alive, it's the opposite to life. You don't accept your truth, you hide it, that's life. Just one single glance would transform your smiles to cries forever.


anyone with self control will find certain actions "good" and others "bad".


Which are just 'randomized', changing, and finally dying definitions.


IcyDeath

I think, that the religion is for the weak people, for those who don't belive in theirselves.


You're just as weak if you believe in yourself.

nvoigt
11-28-2001, 08:34 AM
Your current moral is a set of lies, because the probability that your moral will be proven wrong, and with time also completely disappear, is very big. Look back in history, most of the morals people had a few hundred years ago are already gone.


Meep. Sorry to interrupt you again, but what you saying is not logical. Let's say someone believes in god. No matter if he is proven wrong later, he is not a liar. Probabilities doesn't make anyone a liar. Speaking of his believes doesn't make him a liar. He believes it, so he is not lying. He might not be right either, but there is a difference between lying and being wrong. Lying implies you know better. And no matter how far I look back in history, the basic morals of the peoples that actually survived are still in place.



Therefore I have more rights than most people because basicly I don't have a moral.


No. Everyone has the same rights. How many of the rights the single person uses is another matter.

You do have morals by the way. Else you would be a psychotic, gibbering crazy fool. Well... now that I think about it... maybe you are right. :p:p:p Just kidding.

The V.
11-28-2001, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Series X4 1.0

There is no relation between shaping yourself and a strong will, it depends only on what kind of will you have. The human brain is a neural net, everything you define is based on the structure of your brain and what you've learned in your life. Your current moral is a set of lies, because the probability that your moral will be proven wrong, and with time also completely disappear, is very big. Look back in history, most of the morals people had a few hundred years ago are already gone. This cycle will not stop, even your beliefs are fading. There is only one thing that is not a lie: Death.


Again, you return to this rather poor argument. Simply because the ideas I believe will not be believed forever *in no way* makes them less real. I created my own morals, and as I don't plan to teach others my moral code, I fully expect it to perish with me when I die.

You seem to follow that rather foolish school of thought that, because different people can hold different truths, meanings, morals, etc., that there is no such thing as truth, morality, meaning. Applied to tangible objects, that's like saying the fact two people can dress differently means clothing can't exist.



We all have just a strong self control, your self-control is based on emotions, mine is based on emptiness. Your moral is already judged. Brought to life, then crushed to dust.


I don't seem to be the one emotional here. My self control is based on my will -- I will myself to be a certain way, I will myself to behave in certain manners. You are the one whose every sentence seems driven by despair.



Everything you create is something we can destroy. You're just like me, but so far below - reaching for the darkness with insight.


Of course created things can perish. So what? If the goal of the creator was to create something which endures forever, then this might be a problem. As it is, any good creator will realize the ephemerality of his work, but this does not thwart the creator. Everything is ephemeral, but this doesn't mean that things cannot serve purposes while they exist.

Somehow, you keep reiterating the point that things will change, or end, like it invalidates their entire existence. If my apartment burned to the ground tomorrow, does that mean it provides me any less shelter today?



Darkness is always harmful against your kind. Just look how you complain and suffer as fast as one of you sees their destiny. If you accepted that, you wouldn't be alive, it's the opposite to life. You don't accept your truth, you hide it, that's life. Just one single glance would transform your smiles to cries forever.


Actually, I don't complain OR suffer. You are the one who talks about how life is empty and meaningless, I talk about how life has purpose and is worth living and loving.

Death is not the opposite of life -- death is only part of life. You focus almost obsessively upon it. Yes, I would like to not die -- although I recognize death of things is necessary, I also have the will to continue living. But I cannot change death, I merely accept it and focus on the life that I have now.

The truth that I will die doesn't make my life today any less meaningful -- I am alive today, regardless of whether I am alive tomorrow or not.



Which are just 'randomized', changing, and finally dying definitions.


Not randomized -- chosen in accordance to the will. As to the fact that beliefs can change and end, again, so what? The beliefs are still real, even though they change and die. They still serve a purpose for the will which creates or chooses them.

Kincoria
11-28-2001, 09:02 PM
My girls the devil!