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EvBladeRunnervE
09-10-2004, 07:27 PM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/06/ams_goes_windows_for_warships/

anything seem wrong about this????

BMJ
09-10-2004, 08:45 PM
Nope.

Hating Windows is so 1998 :p

sean
09-10-2004, 09:05 PM
I don't have a problem with it. Microsoft very often uses unethical business techniques (like the rumored blocking of GMail invites from Hotmail and MSN inboxes), but Windows itself I think has made some great strides in quality. Like BMJ said, the anti-Microsoft senitment is left over from some really crappy decisions made on their past OS's, like ME. XP I think is a great operating system. No doubt the British military will be making some changes to it to make it even better, but it certainly would not surprize me if most distros of Linux have more bugs than XP. The only thing that would worry me is Microsoft bad history with security holes. I don't know if that would be a problem when communicating using military-grade networks, however.

exluddite
09-10-2004, 09:33 PM
I think windows on subs is a very bad idea. Think about it.

sean
09-10-2004, 09:40 PM
Is that a pun about literal windows?

Cii
09-10-2004, 10:50 PM
>>XP I think is a great operating system
have you tried sp2? have you tried the service packs of service pack 2?

>>but it certainly would not surprize me if most distros of Linux have more bugs than XP
you can't be serious! i run windows xp and suse. do you know how much harder i have to work to keep windows updated? (and yes, i do all the bug fixes in both of my OSes). in suse, there are occasional updates of software, some security some functionality. other than that, it's mostly smooth sailing. but hell in windows, i download the patches and the next day i figure out that those patches created more holes and i need to download more patches to patch the holes the patch before created while trying to cover up some holes that were before. and the cycle continues. ever seen anything like that in any of the linux distros you used?
face it man, unless you are running some stupid distro and installing software that aren't trusted, a Linux distro itself can never have as much holes in ten years as windows does to date.

chrismiceli
09-10-2004, 10:53 PM
I was on a navy survey ship, and they used redhat linux, I feel safe now :).

EvBladeRunnervE
09-10-2004, 11:25 PM
ace it man, unless you are running some stupid distro and installing software that aren't trusted, a Linux distro itself can never have as much holes in ten years as windows does to date.

I would say that you are partially right; however, it more has to do with what is done with those holes that really makes linux shine. Most security exploits are found and fixed within the first week of a new release if there are any.

Zach L.
09-11-2004, 12:03 AM
Cii... I'm no fan of Windows, but there are so many random Linux distributions that I would be willing to bet that most of them have more bugs/flaws than Windows. If you just look at mainstream distros or purpose-built systems, things probably change (especially in the latter case). There are really so many random ones, though.

sean
09-11-2004, 09:16 AM
i download the patches and the next day i figure out that those patches created more holes and i need to download more patches to patch the holes the patch before created while trying to cover up some holes that were before
Let's say you're in a submarine. Somehow you get a hole in the wall and water starts coming in. You try stuffing things up against the hole but everything you try tears away the material and the hole just gets bigger. In that case, most inteligent forms of life would stop stuffing their belongings up against the hole and try a different method. There are other solutions to the problems in Windows. I've only ever installed the urgent virus patches, and then when I hear about a new security hole, I use a different solution. Most people I think hate Windows because it's popular to hate Bill Gates and makes you look like thoughtful, well-informed, IT-person. Now if someone like Thantos had made a well-argued post why Windows was a bad idea, I'd listen and take it into consideration. I will admit that I used to be one of those people.

Most of the Microsoft software out there is illegal whether you know it or not. I heard a story about some Microsoft employees ordering some workstations to get started on a new project, and while setting them up discovered boot-leg versions of Windows 95 (It was a while ago) on every one of them. You recommend that I only install trusted software. This is the MS equivalent.

edit:

If you just look at mainstream distros or purpose-built systems, things probably change (especially in the latter case).
I am of course also not saying that Linux would be a bad idea, but to add to this thought, the British Navy is probably not going to go down to their local electronics store, get some end-user software, install it, and then smash a bottle of wine on the front of the sub. I can almost guarantee you they're going to make changes to the software. It'll just all be based on the NT Kernel.

whackaxe
09-11-2004, 09:48 AM
the British Navy is probably not going to go down to their local electronics store, get some end-user software, install it, and then smash a bottle of wine on the front of the sub. I can almost guarantee you they're going to make changes to the software. It'll just all be based on the NT Kernel.

they might get a discount on Microsoft Visual Cruise Missile mind you :D

frankly, I don't think thats its going to be your average I-just-wanna-see-my-email user that will be working for the navy. I could be wrong, but i doubt that the radar, periscope, torpedo launcher, engines etc. are plug and play with USB ports :/ windows 2000-3 doesn't sound to bad an idea. although a custom built distro sounds like a better option to me, i don't think its such a big deal that they are using windows

VirtualAce
09-11-2004, 10:00 AM
We use Windows to run our entire factory. If it fails you just reboot the system. But since its Windows 2000 we really don't have much trouble. Every program will hard lock at some point and its not all that disastrous. Just reboot. When you reboot all systems go into idle mode and keep doing what they were doing prior to the reboot. Since a reboot only takes like 3 minutes or so this usually does not cause any problems.

Plus you also have backup systems that are running at all times. If the central computer system is down then each individual system controls a certain zone of the system instead of one computer controlling the whole thing. When the system dies, the zone systems take over.

With redundancy and failsafe's built in using Windows is really not a bad idea.

whackaxe
09-11-2004, 10:04 AM
my mum works for a company called Mapics that makes factory software (or something like that) and aparantly they decided to step up their windows support because all the developers were raving about .NET :D

Govtcheez
09-11-2004, 10:05 AM
> (like the rumored blocking of GMail invites from Hotmail and MSN inboxes)

I got mine in my hotmail box :confused:

sean
09-11-2004, 10:11 AM
> (like the rumored blocking of GMail invites from Hotmail and MSN inboxes)

I got mine in my hotmail box

Hence the "rumored".


my mum works for a company called Mapics that makes factory software (or something like that) and aparantly they decided to step up their windows support because all the developers were raving about .NET

.NET was a big part of what made me switch back to a Microsoft fan.

sean
09-11-2004, 10:12 AM
they might get a discount on Microsoft Visual Cruise Missile mind you

Ha ha - very funny. Internet Explorer is considered an integral part of that, right?

whackaxe
09-11-2004, 10:52 AM
it's probably used to browse to the country who your going to blow the crap out of's website :D

one thing i'd like to know, how would a submarine handle a BSOD?

BMJ
09-11-2004, 12:27 PM
I've not had a BSOD since Windows 98.

Prelude
09-11-2004, 12:34 PM
>I've not had a BSOD since Windows 98.
Clearly you never used ME then. ;)

BMJ
09-11-2004, 12:44 PM
>I've not had a BSOD since Windows 98.
Clearly you never used ME then. ;)Nope. :p

Windows in general is like a musical instrument... there are no good and bad instruments, only talented and untalented musicians.

Prelude
09-11-2004, 01:01 PM
>there are no good and bad instruments, only talented and untalented musicians.
Even the most talented violinist can't play an instrument with broken strings.

BMJ
09-11-2004, 01:49 PM
You're comparing Windows to a broken instrument. How is Windows broken?

Govtcheez
09-11-2004, 01:51 PM
> Even the most talented violinist can't play an instrument with broken strings.

Pete Townshend could. That man could do anything.

Prelude
09-11-2004, 01:51 PM
>How is Windows broken?
I don't think I'll go there. But if you wait I'm sure someone will. :D

ZakkWylde969
09-11-2004, 02:25 PM
We use Windows to run our entire factory. If it fails you just reboot the system. But since its Windows 2000 we really don't have much trouble. Every program will hard lock at some point and its not all that disastrous. Just reboot. When you reboot all systems go into idle mode and keep doing what they were doing prior to the reboot. Since a reboot only takes like 3 minutes or so this usually does not cause any problems.



haha, I can imagine some guys in a submarine hundreds of feet below the surface, and their navagation software crashes, then asks if they want to report an error. :D

Cii
09-11-2004, 03:58 PM
>>You recommend that I only install trusted software. This is the MS equivalent.

sorry i didnt makeself clear there. what i meant there was that in linux, most security holes is introduces to the system with 3rd party software, wherein windows, many comes with the OS itself.

with that said, i'd like to say that i dont 'hate' windows in the truest meaning with the word, but i certainly have issues with it. i am using windows fulltime now because I manages to screw up the suse partition while trying to resize it and the university doesnt provide me with enough bandwidth to download it again.

Prelude
09-11-2004, 04:04 PM
>in linux, most security holes is introduces to the system with 3rd party software
Ignoring the fact that the majority of any Linux system is third party software? :D

Vicious
09-11-2004, 04:59 PM
haha, I can imagine some guys in a submarine hundreds of feet below the surface, and their navagation software crashes, then asks if they want to report an error.

Either that or it automatically updates itself to SP2 and the software isnt compatible.

Good thing though, they could always ctrl+alt+del to stop a nuke from firing :p

kermit
09-11-2004, 05:13 PM
kermit $ ps -A
PID TTY TIME CMD
....
3356 ? 00:00:00 firefox-bin
3808 ? 00:00:00 tactical-nuke
3409 pts/0 00:00:00 bash
....

kermit $ kill 3808

when I need to stop my nukes from firing I just use the kill command... :D

gcn_zelda
09-11-2004, 05:42 PM
> Even the most talented violinist can't play an instrument with broken strings.

Pete Townshend could. That man could do anything.

So could Willy Wonka.

Zach L.
09-11-2004, 06:43 PM
I think the MS Paper Clip needs to make a comeback. A smiling little paper-clip saying, "If you would like to fire an ICBM at [random country name], click here. If you would like to use a cruise missile instead, click here. Have a nice day." :)

caroundw5h
09-11-2004, 08:23 PM
So I just got my SP2 download via automatic updates tonight and do a search for it on the board to see if anyone has had any problems and whaday know i find the most recent one here in GD where i've found all of of ABSOULUTELY NOTHING to tell me if i should or shouldn't use it. :p

j/kes. Funny thing is when i normally get my updates there used to be an option to get info about what the files were this time there were none. M$$ tried to slip it past me! I had to select custom install, those sneaky rats!!!

In anycase kermit or uber gave this link (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=884130&product=windowsxpsp2) of stuff that wasn't working. They mentioned some programs I have on my system. Not being Anti Moneysoft but it looks like the list didn't really shrink. Supposedly they have their own firewall??? :confused: WTF, how you gonna build a firewall when you can't even patch/protect your other products. *sigh* I don't wanna m$ bash, but they are way to big. M$ needs to remeber where they came from. They need to go back to their roots. They need - espeacially bill - to search their souls and find the true geek in them and embrace it. Then and only then will they get our hearts as well as our wallets. :(


and....SCENE!!!

Zach L.
09-11-2004, 09:38 PM
I have no knowledge of the security of their firewall, but I'd imagine that they'd at least be able to make a fairly decent one. In fairness to them, it is easier to has purpose-built software that works properly than to integrate the functionality into an already very large and complex/diverse system.

sean
09-11-2004, 10:38 PM
You're comparing Windows to a broken instrument. How is Windows broken?

Having just advocated Windows, I realize this is quite self-contradictory, but you'll see plenty of examples at www.thisisbroken.com

itld
09-11-2004, 11:14 PM
Howdy,
I'll bet it works great for them, load propritary software, they limit access, cover holes after they are a problem, charge a lot of $$$ sounds like a marriage made in heaven.
Of course they could use Linux, close down the sub fleet while all of the navy learns a new OS, hire a group of teenaged hackers to develope apps, modify the kernel to do as little as possible...

M.R.

Cii
09-12-2004, 12:39 AM
>>Ignoring the fact that the majority of any Linux system is third party software?
touche!

ZakkWylde969
09-12-2004, 10:48 AM
Either that or it automatically updates itself to SP2 and the software isnt compatible.

Good thing though, they could always ctrl+alt+del to stop a nuke from firing :p




"Sir the nuke program is frozen in fire sequence, what do we do?"


"CONTROL ALT DELETE!"

whackaxe
09-12-2004, 11:17 AM
"Sir the nuke program is frozen in fire sequence, what do we do?"


"CONTROL ALT DELETE!"

wow, good example :rolleyes:

itld
09-12-2004, 02:33 PM
Howdy,
Task Manager - end Process....

M.R.

sean
09-12-2004, 02:54 PM
Are you sure you want to nuke North Korea?

| Make It So | Cancel | Help |

Vicious
09-12-2004, 02:59 PM
*Clicks Make It So*

Are really sure you want to nuke Nort Korea?

|OK| |Cancel|


[edit]

Then ofcourse.. it would crash and send an error repot to microsoft and then bill gates would have top secret militaty inforamtion and would truly own the world. :D

He's getting there... he's getting there.

Perspective
09-12-2004, 04:19 PM
i guess in this case a blue screen of death means a huge wall of water entering the sub.


oh, i forgot. a huge wall of water entering the sub because of microsoft.

kermit
09-12-2004, 05:01 PM
Microsoft caused hurricane Ivan.

Vicious
09-12-2004, 05:18 PM
El nino was caused by a memory leak...

Thantos
09-12-2004, 05:21 PM
Nope. :p

Windows in general is like a musical instrument... there are no good and bad instruments, only talented and untalented musicians.

There are certain instruments that are of a much higher quality and thus allows the musician to reach a level they would not be able to obtain with a lesser quality instrument.

And the best musicians will have a difficult time making an instrument that is out of tune sound decent.

whackaxe
09-13-2004, 09:03 AM
El nino was caused by a memory leak...

and adam ate the apple because of poor documenation?

Perspective
09-13-2004, 09:29 AM
and adam ate the apple because of poor documenation?

i believe that was because of proprietary specs not being released. Poor docs caused the Chicago fires and the big California earthquake.

Fordy
09-13-2004, 10:16 AM
For me it's not the issue that our subs are running windows that concerns me, it's the idea that if we did install redhat or whatever we would need to fill the ship with linux-users to run it! Now that would worry me!

sean
09-13-2004, 01:51 PM
Which makes me wonder how moch of the OS itself will the sailors be seeing? I mean, if the fit hits the shan, obviously you're going to need people who know the OS from scratch like the back of their hand. But accidents aside, all you really need to train them on is how to use the software.

gcn_zelda
09-13-2004, 04:57 PM
El nino was caused by a memory leak...

Coincidentally, if Microsoft hadn't had that blaster virus, we wouldn't have had to go into Iraq.