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golfinguy4
05-12-2004, 09:35 PM
I just wanted to hopefully start an intellectual discussion about the US presedential candidates. No flaming, no idiocy.

As a starting point, http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P83603.asp?GT1=3391

RoD
05-12-2004, 09:41 PM
Im not big on the hold that bush had on taking action in iraq. While im not big on the fact that we are still there when we should not be, we should have gone in after osama september 11th.

I'm interested in where the canidates stand on issues such as gun control, adoption, and offroad vehicle recreations, but i must confess until about two days ago i didnt even know who the canidates were.

Not watching the news tends to keep me out of the loop.

Shadow12345
05-12-2004, 09:53 PM
ill tell you in november?

major_small
05-12-2004, 10:45 PM
I'm interested in where the canidates stand on issues such as gun control, adoption, and offroad vehicle recreations, but i must confess until about two days ago i didnt even know who the canidates were.

Not watching the news tends to keep me out of the loop.
same here... and I don't really see how that link was supposed to start anything... all I can say right now is that I would probably rather give kerry a chance then to reelect bush...

golfinguy4
05-12-2004, 11:04 PM
Bush is traditionally known as the one w/corporate backings. That's why I posted the link.

RoD
05-12-2004, 11:27 PM
kerry is more up my alley to i think, his daughter can get it

Rouss
05-13-2004, 07:22 AM
I don't like either candidate... I was for the war (because I was mad as hell at 9-11), but this should have been over long ago. I didn't even care if there are no WMDs. We got Saddam, (and I'm not trying to rationalize it, that's just my feelings). Buf they don't want us there, which they don't from the looks of it, we need to leave.

And I think everyone knows either W isn't the brightest guy in the world, or he just doesn't have a strong grasp of the English language (or both). So it's a little embarassing at times to see his interviews or speeches. I'm really not a big Bush fan, but at least he did something about 9-11.. He's gone a little to far with it now... But in the beginning, I think it was good...

But all I've really heard from Kerry is putting down Bush... I haven't really heard anything about what he stands for... Even from my roommate, who is a raging Pro-Kerry democrat (I'm independent), when I ask him what's great about Kerry, all he says is "he's not Bush" or "He's better than Bush"... That helps alot. He did actually say that Kerry has more political ethics than Bush, when I asked him to explain he tried to tell me that political ethics were different from normal ethics (he's a political science major)... This frightens me. But I've also heard about how Kerry flip-flops all the time... He was in the war, he protested the war (with Jane Fonda no less), he voted to lower taxes, but only after he voted to raise the same taxes... He said this, no he said that... I mean come on. And for some reason, he comes off as an arrogant jerk to me (I just get that vibe from watching him on tv), but that could just be me...

I really don't know who to vote for... I think in November it's going to be picking the lesser evil (whoever it is)... This will be the first election I get to vote in, and all I've heard growing up is "voting is important", "it's your duty", "if you don't vote, you can't complain"... I want to complain!!! But not about who I voted for...

<sarcasm>Why can't we have good honest candidates to choose from?</sarcasm> (That shouldn't have to be sarcastic...)

Well, that's my rant... I can only hope I kept it intellectual.
Rouss

FillYourBrain
05-13-2004, 09:31 AM
rouss, congratulations. You may be the only person I've ever seen on these boards who discusses politics without spitting venom at one side or the other (most often at Bush).

Shadow12345
05-13-2004, 10:15 AM
Kerry seems to be just as conservative as Bush on a lot of issues. He's said that he won't necessarily pull out of Iraq, and he's also said he's voted for the 'largest defense spending in the history of the united states', but yet he is against the war. It's just confusing, and like many others I think they both aren't ideal.

EDIT:
I think if I ran for president and offered everybody free pizza every tuesday, I'd probably get elected, because it would, at this point, make more sense than what these other two guys are talking about. And I guess I left out Nader.

axon
05-13-2004, 12:38 PM
I don't think I will vote at all; the reason for this is that I rather vote for something than against something. i.e. I wont vote for Kerry just to vote against Bush...

Rouss
05-13-2004, 01:05 PM
rouss, congratulations. You may be the only person I've ever seen on these boards who discusses politics without spitting venom at one side or the other (most often at Bush).

Thank you very much. But I can't take all the credit. You can congratulate my lack of knowledge in the politics category (I really do get all my politics from The Daily Show with Jon Stewart). I've decided that I hate politics (well, the way that it's corrupt anyway). That's why I chose computer science over law (that and the money).

I just don't see the point of arguing about anything over the internet. Even if you win, what's the point? More than likely you'll never even know the person you're arguing with, and they might not even read half the stuff you say... Arguing in person is much more fun. Especially if you're right... And I don't think there is a right side in the Kerry vs. Bush fight...


I think if I ran for president and offered everybody free pizza every tuesday, I'd probably get elected, because it would, at this point, make more sense than what these other two guys are talking about.

Free pizza? I would vote for you. Honestly.


I don't think I will vote at all; the reason for this is that I rather vote for something than against something. i.e. I wont vote for Kerry just to vote against Bush...

That is a good point... More people need to think about if they are voting for someone or against the other person. What good is a vote when you don't want any of the choices? It's like when you're with a group of people, and they can't decide where to eat, so they vote. Half vote mexican food, half vote chinese food... And you want pizza. Either way, you're stuck with something you didn't want for that hour of lunch... We're about to be stuck with mexican food or chinese food for four years...

Unless we all vote for Shadow12345, then we can eat what we want and have pizza every Tuesday.

Well, I'm sorry about the whole 'keeping the discussion intellectual', I kinda blew that one...

Rouss

Glirk Dient
05-13-2004, 01:20 PM
I personally like the action in Iraq, no matter what president did it or how they did it I have been hoping for this for a while, so I like whats going on.

Recently I have stoped watching the news because they seem to focus on the bad or whatever will get them more viewers.

People are too offensive and touchy on political subjects and no one ever agrees 100% so everones always arguing. It all just seemed pointless and like my opinion will change anything anyways, all I tended to do was cause big arguments where it's everyone vs me. Oh well I think these type of topics should be closed because people are too offensive/touchy and they always get out of hand. On top of that half the "facts" people get are false or so far to one side it fogs up the truth.

jinx
05-13-2004, 01:41 PM
Look. Questions concerning the legitimacy of Bush's election arose, Questions about the US involvment in Iraq are up, and question's are up about 911 and who new what in Bush's administration. The fact that they arose lead to the suggestion that perhaps all is clear on the truth front. Questions about Clinton arose and we booted him out. I know we got Bush in trade but lets get Kerry in there to clean up.

Rouss
05-13-2004, 01:46 PM
We didn't boot Clinton out. He never got impeached (though they tried to), and he had two terms. He couldn't run again.

/edit (add on)/ And we got Bush because Gore wasn't elected (one way or the other). But who's to say Kerry will clean up? There's already questions about his record with the truth... It's a dirty road either way you look at it...

Can I ask what you think Kerry will do to 'clean it up'? And what exactly he will clean up?

whackaxe
05-13-2004, 02:10 PM
vote communist. i would.

axon
05-13-2004, 02:40 PM
>>vote communist. i would.

if you're not being a dumbass, explain why.

whackaxe
05-13-2004, 03:32 PM
why would i not be serious? go and read up about communism if your interested. i don't see you asking any democrats and republicans to justify their vote?

Rouss
05-13-2004, 03:38 PM
whackaxe,

Are you talking about ideal communism? If so, I would agree that communism would be a valid choice. Maybe not the one I would pick, but to each his own. Most people hear communism and think of China, Cuba, Soviet Union, and all the 'bad' communists... Those aren't really the ideal picture of communism, even if they are the most remembered.

DavidP
05-13-2004, 03:49 PM
Yes there are major differences between ideal Communism and how Communism has been implemented in the world so far, but even ideal communism has a major flaw in it in my opinion. I think its major flaw is the fact that it calls for a bloody revolution in order for Communism to be spread throughout the world.

Thantos
05-13-2004, 03:51 PM
We didn't boot Clinton out. He never got impeached
Actually Clinton was impeached. Impeachment is just the bringing of charges. Of that there is the trail and if found guilty the punishment.

In all honesty I do not like either one. While I don't disagree with Bush's actions per se he has lost the respect of many and as such is no longer the effective leader he once was. As such its time for him to move on. Kerry just seems like a hypocrite. I almost wish we could remove the lot of them and get a different group to choose from.


Why can't we have good honest candidates to choose from? Because there is no honest politician. To get to the point where they could run for the presidenticy they have had to compromise their morals so often they are no longer in touch with the former selves.

Rouss
05-13-2004, 03:59 PM
I think its major flaw is the fact that it calls for a bloody revolution in order for Communism to be spread throughout the world.

Yes, I agree. That is a major flaw... Unless you don't want to spread it throughout the world... But it probably calls for that too... I haven't skimmed through the manifesto lately.


Actually Clinton was impeached. Impeachment is just the bringing of charges. Of that there is the trail and if found guilty the punishment.

I knew I shouldn't have skipped that day of civics in high school... Well, now I know, and that's all that counts.


Because there is no honest politician. To get to the point where they could run for the presidenticy they have had to compromise their morals so often they are no longer in touch with the former selves.

Yeah... I know... Maybe we could settle for a president that doesn't look funny?

To change topics for a while... Anyone here from Cali? How is Arnold doing? Honestly, I was amazed when he was elected... But from what I hear, he's actually doing good. But I don't hear much.

Thantos
05-13-2004, 04:06 PM
I'm from california. He's doing fairly well IMO. While he hasn't gotten as much done as he said he wanted he has done a good job in bring both sides together. There have been a couple issues he has waffled on he's pretty much keep to what he has said.
I think one reason a lot of people are working with him is to just cover their own butts. They don't want to be the person who gets singled out for not playing nicely. While I don't think he'll be able to do it, I would be surprised if he (eventually) laid the ground work for a consitutional admendment to allow naturalized citizens to become the President.

One annoying thing about him is that he LOVES the press and hearing some of his bad jokes all the time is kinda annoying. But if thats the price I have to pay to have a governer that actually will make a decision then I can live with that.

axon
05-13-2004, 04:06 PM
>>Are you talking about ideal communism? If so, I would agree that communism would be a valid choice.

ideal communism sounds nice on paper, however, is unreachable for our pety minds. Often this utopian dream ends in a dystopian reality.


>>why would i not be serious? go and read up about communism if your interested. i don't see you asking any democrats and republicans to justify their vote?

I asked you because you just blurted something out without giving any explanation. Most others, whatever party they might follow, give some supporting ideas. And for your information I have read "about communism" - more then you could even think of.

axon
05-13-2004, 04:12 PM
>>I think its major flaw is the fact that it calls for a bloody revolution in order for Communism to be spread throughout the world.


pfffttt.... where does it call for that?!? any evidence davidP?!? on the contrary, idealist institutions such as socialism and anarchism, in its purest form, call for a peaceful revolution. Hagel, Fourier, or Marx never wrote about a "bloody coup" - what happened in Russia, for example, was a poor perversion of the ideal communist revolution.

axon
05-13-2004, 04:20 PM
Damn it....sorry about the 3 posts in a row, but to anyone who favors the "communist way", I suggest you take up two books, and after reading them if your mind does not change than I don't know what will.

1. The Devils - Fyodor Dostoevsky (this is also known as "The Possessed" or "The Demons")
2. We - Yevgeny Zamyatin

both of these are fiction/novels. The former is a magnificent premonition of the revolution in Russia, and the latter is an account of a full blown socialist state. Actually, both 1984 by Orwell and A Brave New World by Huxley have taken ideas from Zamyatin. It is also an interesting fact that after "1984" became famous, critics asked Orwell if he has ever heard of Zamyatin and of "We" - of course he denied it, as he was a hardcore anti-Russian...after his death, multiple, fully annotated, copies of "We" have been found in his library.

axon
05-13-2004, 04:41 PM
one more thing on communism (this is a sort-of paradox though) - the major flaw of communism is not the idea itself but the people. That is, whatever happens, a communist state is always bound to end in the majority being slaves/sheep and a ruling minority with a despotic leader.

A great read for this is "The Grand Inquisitor" also by Dostoevsky. It is a chapter of The Brothers Karamazov but is also reprinted alone as it is one of the most intriguing and influential pieces of literature ever written.

ZerOrDie
05-13-2004, 05:01 PM
"According to the Washington Post, the ACLU was forced to remove a paragraph from their online press release, that specified what kind of information FBI agents could request under the Patriot Act that the ACLU has been suing over. "


Sure vote for bush! Vote away your free-speech. What do i care i dont live in censorship america. Land of the free hah! The powers granted to the government by the law are themselves state secrets!



"...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Göring


Who is next for a vacation at guantanamo bay? The torture is on the house!

VirtualAce
05-13-2004, 05:39 PM
I was for the war in Iraq but I too think we should leave now. It's quite clear that all those people want to do is fight over something 24/7. Its unfortunate for the percentage of the populous that really wants to make something of their country.....that part I think we never see on the television because it doesn't make for good news. But it is time to leave.

As for putting Kerry into office....just not comfortable with it. Bush has not done a terrible job....not that I think being the President is in any way an easy job or that I'm qualified to even judge such a position....but I'll probably go with Bush.

I really wish that we would stop mud slinging to gain the presidency in this country, however. Getting personal in a debate is one sure sign of an immature debate and yet we condone this type of debating all the time. Every presidency follows a pattern if you haven't noticed.

First they go through their honeymoon period where the country for the most part likes them. Then they start to make policies which not everyone agrees with and thus begin to lose popularity and the landslide begins - 4 years later they are near 50% approval and 50% disapproval. Truthfully you can't win because your job is to make everyone happy....and we all know that you cannot do that.

Overall I think Bush has done a fairly good job of leading given everything he has had thrown at him. If you think about it this is not the same country that Bush inherited from Clinton...it's not even close. 9/11 changed everything forever and so he has had a very difficult job and I think he has been a fairly good leader in most instances.

Selecting a Presidtential candidate is like purchasing a car. You look at one car and think man I love the color but the thing only has a 4 cylinder. So you look at another that has a V6 but it doesn't have the exact color you want. You realize you are never going to find the perfect car and so you compromise and buy the one that suits you best. The same is true of the President. None of the candidates are ever going to be the perfect candidate. Statements like let's get so and so in there to clean it all up....are simply false statements based for the most part on hype and emotion. 2 years later and everyone wants another person in there to clean it all up.

My advice is....don't go with the trends and emotions...go with what truth you can pull from what the candidates really believe and how they stand on issues important to you - not easy to wade through all the crap and hype....but you can with enough research. Just because an issue is important to someone else...doesn't mean that issue is important to me and thus that will not affect my decision to vote or not to vote for a certain candidate. That's the beauty of the American system.

However if you do not vote I personally feel you have absolutely no room to talk negatively towards the current or the future President. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. And yes we all know the debate surrounding 'my vote doesn't count because of the electoral college' and while it has some validity it does not give us a license not to vote. But again in America you have the right to vote just as much as you have the right not to, and you have the right to choose whomever you please...within certain constraints of course.

For me, Bush's stances on the issues at hand...or the ones that affect my vote are more in line with how I view things. Doesn't mean Kerry is a bad candidate....just not my choice.

Some of us apparently are more led by emotions and radicalism than logic - on both sides. I trend away from radical all-encompassing statements because there are always 2 sides to any story....and usually we are only given one or half of one side. But again...we are all entitled to our opinion....but I'm just not that radical for any one party because they all have their flaws.

It's been proven that most voters who do vote are seriously misinformed about the candidate they choose. We are lazy voters and usually choose based on what is spoon fed to us by the media - for both sides - Republican, Democrat, or whatever it may be.

axon
05-13-2004, 06:37 PM
Bubba's post should be stickied! :D seriously though, I agree with almost everything you said. The reason I don't want to vote for Bush, is that I am scared of what he might do next. If he gets reelected he has a free sleigh to do whatever the hell he wants...and from the looks of it, this means, taking away our (American) freedoms. It is ironic how we are fighting to bring freedom to other nations of the world, and at the same time our own freedoms are being raped. Even though, we are still, by far, one of the most democratic and free peoples of the world, I want to keep it that way...

RoD
05-13-2004, 06:38 PM
We got osama, why are we still there.

axon
05-13-2004, 07:15 PM
>>We got osama

rod, are you trying to be stupid?

Xterria
05-13-2004, 07:19 PM
ah damn. i jumped up and turned on the news right when i heard that but they were talking about fast food

Dante Shamest
05-13-2004, 07:23 PM
I think rod meant Saddam Hussein.

RoD
05-13-2004, 08:11 PM
nah i thought we caught osama in a trench or something.

major_small
05-13-2004, 08:24 PM
He never got impeached
I know what you meant here, but he did get impeached. he just wasn't removed from power.

linuxdude
05-13-2004, 08:51 PM
axon read "The communist manifesto" it does say there has to be a revolution first.

axon
05-13-2004, 08:55 PM
>>revolution first.

I never said there shouldn't be one...what I said is that it never says it has to be a "bloody revolution"

harryP
05-13-2004, 09:19 PM
I won't be able to vote for another year, but if I could, then I wouldn't know who to vote for. I think Bush is doing ok, but I disagree with a lot of his decisions and I just don't think he's all that great. I don't know much about Kerry. I too have only seen him being anti-Bush (of course, I don't watch much TV or anything so I wouldn't see much). I think whoever we elect (or re-elect) needs to pull us out of this war, though. It was nice to go and free them and all but they clearly want us to leave now. Let them deal with it all themselves, even if it does end up badly. It's getting pointless.

By the way, who is the socialist candidate?

Brendan

whackaxe
05-14-2004, 04:56 AM
i'll specify then. personaly i support Marxist theories, but i don't believe in revolution. i also find that the road to utopia going through a dictatorship very bad, because all communist states have got stuck on this part and have mutated into dictatorships which betray communism to one extent or another. as for my explanation, i can't really give a valid one seeing as we are talking about american politics which isn't something i have much knowledge about, but my ideaology is centered around socialist/communist ideas. nice list of suggested reading there too :)