PDA

View Full Version : Horrible



Pages : [1] 2

Lurker
05-11-2004, 06:31 PM
Barbaric doesn't even begin to describe this.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015

Silvercord
05-11-2004, 06:50 PM
I saw the video.

Kind of makes you question what we're doing in Iraq.

Silvercord
05-11-2004, 06:55 PM
The united states cannot ever win this type of war either.

kermi3
05-11-2004, 07:17 PM
I suppose this is expected retaliation for our actions. I'm not saying I approve of either actions but.....

I'm not accusing him of knowingly allowing the tortures, but I would like to take this oppertunity to thank dear President Bush for this pointless war. I really feel that my tax dollars are being put to good use.

Zach L.
05-11-2004, 07:22 PM
Pointless and poorly planned.

Silvercord
05-11-2004, 07:37 PM
I think it's the government's job to protect the people.

With that said, our military could've been put to better use elsewhere.

Is anyone else afraid of the idea of being alienated from the United Nations? I've always thought that was one of the few good things out there, just some sort of collective working together between countries.

*shrug*

JaWiB
05-11-2004, 08:12 PM
>>The united states cannot ever win this type of war either.

It's too bad really...I can't see any good resolution to this. We can't really just pull out without stopping or at least significantly slowing the violence (well we could, but it wouldn't look very good if we just gave up), but at the same time I don't see any way for the violence to stop. The people over there see us killing and even abusing their people and then they take revenge. Of course if we do nothing when something like that happens the cycle just repeats itself. Hmm, isn't that sort of how things have been happening in the middle east for all these years?

linuxdude
05-11-2004, 08:46 PM
And what do you suppose we do? Do you say we just leave Iraq like it is. Have the whole world look at us like idiots. Bush had a reason to go to Iraq. Even if their is no "weapons of mass destruction" Isn't the world better off without Sadam in office. He helped terrorist all the time. Would you want a 1st world country not help you because, "it is a lost cause" I would be infuriated. That is why we are America we protect. We can win this war it isn't impossible the left-winged media just makes it seem that way. I don't like people dying, but I don't want something like 9/11 happen again.

axon
05-11-2004, 08:56 PM
>>It's too bad really...I can't see any good resolution to this

one possible resolution is that our "boys" should be able to use any means necessary to win this war, and not to worry about "media scandals" and such. This includes killing anyone who might be a suspected enemy. Now it seems that our military is scared of what the media will make of any of their actions. I really don't care about the treatment of Iraqi prisoners either...put yourself in the positions of those soldiers...if you saw your buddy's head exploded from enemy fire, you would do the same if put in that position. "But thatís not ethical", "you're a mean and heartless bastard axon" - I know what you're thinking but I know for a fact that 99% of us if put in that situation would behave the same. ITS WAR FOR CRYING OUTLOUD!!

Sure I know that these statements might seem cruel, and many of you more liberally minded folks will jump to my throat for it...but this is war, and not a freagin movie or book. Also some of you know that in the beginning I was strongly for the war, now my views changed a bit - but I still think that we cannot just leave right now and leave that region as is. Too much was done already, and a fast, "media acceptable", resolution is out of the question. I propose that all of us - believers, atheists, and agnostics, pray for the fast and safe return of our military personnel.

novacain
05-11-2004, 09:57 PM
Would you take a picture of yourself robbing a house? Or mugging someone?
Why not?

Look at the pictures. See the people standing round as if this is normal?
This is a military prison and what these soldiers are doing is illegal. Yet no one stopped them photographing and videoing it. The officers did not stop them or stop the pictures.

Why?
Because they did not think it was wrong and because they were ORDERED to do this.
That says this is SOP in all US military prisons.

Before you complain about the one US killed, ask about the 50 Iraqis civilians killed while in US prisons, including the two confirmed cases of murder.
Heard of them? If not, WHY?

Note the rhetoric and language used in the article.
“It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children. We will pursue those who are responsible and bring them to justice.” White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan.

“I knew he was decapitated before. That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn’t want it to become public,” Michael Berg said.

Preferable to three years in Guantanamo Bay, held without charge, while tortured and abused?
Preferable to being an innocent bystander caught in the explosion when the US / Israel assassinate its enemies?

>>I'm not accusing him of knowingly allowing the tortures, but I would like to take this oppertunity to thank dear President Bush for this pointless war.<<

Rumsfelt knew since January but did nothing.

The point was to ensure US oil supplies and ensure all the Arab states know what will happen if they step out of line.
A bonus was that now the ‘terrorists’ would now have good targets that were military (not civilian) and located off US soil. That is no repeat of S11.

Saudi Arabia allowed US military in to protect them against Iraq in 1990. The Saudis paid the US billions, bankrupting the nation, for this protection. The US has no mandate to stay in Saudi, but used the presence of Sadam in Iraq as an excuse. GWB’s support Sharon (and his ‘peace’ plan) was the last straw in a long line of betrayals by the US and the US military was asked to leave Saudi. Similar to King Fassal shutting off the oil to the US (and the US military) during Vietnam because the US supplied Israel will more arms when it seemed Israel would loose the fourth Arab war.

That’s when Sadam suddenly became a problem again.

Zach L.
05-11-2004, 10:00 PM
linuxdude, the thing is that large scale killing (like 9/11) are not all that infrequent. Most of them are not nearly as widely publicized, and many happen over the course of a couple months or a couple years instead of a single day, but nevertheless, they happen. Some of the "terrorists" in these situations, we support, others are enemies. To say, "That is why we are America, we protect," is foolish. We protect our interests. I'm not saying we should not protect our interests -- we would be foolish not to -- but it is very difficult to justify many of our actions as protecting others. On the humanitarian side, the US is certainly no saint.

>> I know what you're thinking
Uh huh... Sure...

>> I still think that we cannot just leave right now and leave that region as is.
Very true. We have committed ourselves to bringing some sort of stability to Iraq. If we left now, it would be a complete disaster. But it doesn't look too good right now; reeks of poor plnning.

Xterria
05-11-2004, 10:01 PM
just saw the video. can you imagine how much that hurts when someone takes a dull blade and takes 30 seconds to fully saw off your head while your screaming in agony? to see americans suffer like this really ........es me off. and this is only when they went public about it. apparently this is revenge for all the 'abuse' we put those poor iraqi terrorists through. This guy died in vain.



"But thatís not ethical", "you're a mean and heartless bastard axon" - I know what you're thinking but I know for a fact that 99% of us if put in that situation would behave the same. ITS WAR FOR CRYING OUTLOUD!!

i can't believe axon your such a jerk bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla geneva bla bla bla hippy democrat bla

Dante Shamest
05-11-2004, 10:10 PM
If anybody wants to see the full video, head over to Ogrish.com

Be warned though, it's not a pleasant sight.

Xterria
05-11-2004, 10:21 PM
you can see the guy sitting there cowering in fear while the dumbass reads off his stupid proof-read arabic essay. the guy knew he was going to die. just watching the guy lay there in the beginning in fear makes me think about how this relates to an unorginized skirmish like vietnam. There hasn't been a real war since world war II if you think about it. Now adays if an actual nation rather than little pigs hiding in caves were to threaten our country, we'd blow the <Mod edit> out of them with nuclear warheads. In real wars, nobody gets beheaded. just pounded with immense radiation.
I wonder if this post made any sense...

major_small
05-11-2004, 10:26 PM
thanks for that... I've been looking for a while... not exactly the full video, but it has all the major... um... plot points?

this war is completely and utterly useless...

one possible resolution is that our "boys" should be able to use any means necessary to win this war first, it's not a war, and second, if it was, what would you consider winning? ousting current leadership and taking control? wait... we already did that...

Shadow12345
05-11-2004, 10:28 PM
Treating prisoners like that is wrong, and you can't take the mentality that 'oh this is war, people get hurt' because once you are a prisoner you are no longer fighting.

I agree with what Jawib said in his first post and what Zach said about the widespread killings. Everyone re-read those statements, and everyone else type less, nobody will read everything you write.

Shadow12345
05-11-2004, 10:30 PM
first, it's not a war, and second, if it was, what would you consider winning? ousting current leadership and taking control? wait... we already did that...

and before anybody acts like a retard and disagrees with him, he's sort of right because we never declared war...although, if this isn't a war, I don't know what is (ol dubya refers to it as the war on terror doesn't he?).

major_small
05-11-2004, 10:34 PM
yeah, all i got out of it is that you're a <Mod edit> idiot... do you really believe the united states would nuke any other country?!

Xterria
05-11-2004, 10:43 PM
yeah, all i got out of it is that you're a <Mod edit> idiot... do you really believe the united states would nuke any other country?!
yeah. better them than us. let's imagine for a second...the US destroying every non-democratic and terrorist nation. the only problem i can see from this is the large numbers of people who thought it was unethical to nuke the enemy, thus trying to rebel. but hey, we've got mob squads.
can somebody please point out what when then go wrong? there we go, we've got world peace. people won't begin to understand this for hundereds of years. go ahead, call me crazy.

major_small
05-11-2004, 10:48 PM
oh, so you want one empire with all the power in the world... good... then nobody has to get along or agree, because we'll all be told what to do and what to think... that's great... we have the power to take over the world, so why not? we're right all the time anyway, aren't we? even if we're not (which could never happen because we're always right), we're the ones in charge, so you can't say we're wrong because we'll kill you.

Xterria
05-11-2004, 10:55 PM
right or wrong we may be, there can't be two sides contradicting eachother, or there'll be wars.

Shadow12345
05-11-2004, 11:02 PM
I'm kind of getting sick of the nuke everybody" attitude. I also don't think that the people that condone it are really dumb enough to believe it...I think they just don't care and are making a mockery of a world situation.

EDIT:


do you really believe the united states would nuke any other country?!

I do.

major_small
05-11-2004, 11:07 PM
that's the very basis of balance... the essence of our government... one side is supposed to disagree with eachother so nobody jumps into things... if the president wants to nuke people, there will be the environmentalists and educated (hippies, as you would call them) that would try to stop him. eventually, the debate tips in favor of one side enough to make it happen.

maybe you should look at the model your very own government follows.

Xterria
05-11-2004, 11:13 PM
yeah, we can follow the rules of democracy, after the 3rd world waring countries are all gone, along with the terrorists they harbored. it makes you think, how much better would the world be without all those regions? had macarthur gotten his 50 nukes he asked for all of our enemies would be gone to this day. but why didn't he do it? because of the 'educated' people.

major_small
05-11-2004, 11:30 PM
you're so completely ignorant and close-minded... I don't know why I even bother talking to you...

DavidP
05-12-2004, 12:20 AM
It's too bad really...I can't see any good resolution to this. We can't really just pull out without stopping or at least significantly slowing the violence (well we could, but it wouldn't look very good if we just gave up), but at the same time I don't see any way for the violence to stop.




And what do you suppose we do? Do you say we just leave Iraq like it is. Have the whole world look at us like idiots. Bush had a reason to go to Iraq. Even if their is no "weapons of mass destruction" Isn't the world better off without Sadam in office. He helped terrorist all the time.




the US is certainly no saint.


While reading these posts I was reminded of the Vietnam War and also the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

First of all I would like to comment on Zach's quote where he says, "the US is certainly no saint." I believe he is 100% correct in saying that. We (the USA) have gotten ourselves into so many political blunders it is hard to count.

Right now I want to focus on the Vietnam War and then the Khmer Rouge. There are many facts about both of these things that most people simply do not know. Everyone knows that Ho Chi Minh was a supporter of Communism, and that the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia in the 70's, and that the Khmer Rouge committed genocide in Cambodia. Those are indisputable and widely known.

However most things people here are one-sided and bias. Most people don't know that although Ho Chi Minh was a supporter of Communism, that was not his main goal, but his main goal was for a united Vietnam, not a seperated South and North Vietnam. Americans can equate that to the American Civil War. Abe Lincoln's single goal during the way was to have a united country. He was not fighting to abolish slavery. The difference between the two (in the scope of this discussion) is the style of government they supported.

What many also do not know is that the USA supported the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge was a Communist regime. They committed a massive act of genocide in Cambodia. And America still supported them. In fact when the Khmer Rouge took power Vietnam warned America not to support them, but America did not listen. When genocide began to take place, Vietnam invaded Cambodia to stop it (among other political reasons), because it could not sit back and watch the people get killed. America continued to support the Khmer Rouge for many more years.

There is no doubt that the United States has entered into political blunder after political blunder. Our record is in no way clean.

I also, like Jawib, cannot see any good resolution to the current events in the Middle East. When the war began, I was pro-war. As I see the events that have taken place since that time, I think back and many times wish we had either done things differently or not gone into Iraq in the first place.

I do not dispute linuxdude's argument that Saddam's regime needed to be stopped, however, it almost seems we have gotten ourselves into a larger conflict than we expected. And I do not mean that in a military way. Militarily we very easily dominate the situation, but politically it seems as if our position is getting weaker and weaker.

It makes me think back to what George Washington said in his farewell address. He warned against meddling in foreign affairs too much. Certainly some affairs require our attention, however, must we be so attentive? I don't know. I will have to think about it. I don't have any conclusions right now, just a lot of observations that need thinking about.

There is one thing I would like to point out to everyone, however. Go to:

www.ourdocuments.gov

It is an excellent website that contains the 100 most important milestone documents of American history. It is really a great website. Take a look at George Washington's Farewell Address. I think it provides some valuable insights.

VirtualAce
05-12-2004, 12:50 AM
I think we should stick to discussing code on the board because of threads like this. All I can say is I saw the video and I feel very sorry for the man and his family..it truly is horrible.

It is horrifying what the human race is capable of regardless of race, creed, nationality, etc. Perhaps one day we will learn that deep down we all want the same things out of life. Perhaps one day we can focus our efforts on more important things than just finding new way to kill one another. We all have to live on planet Earth...why not make it a pleasant experience?

There are no words.

*ClownPimp*
05-12-2004, 01:04 AM
one possible resolution is that our "boys" should be able to use any means necessary to win this war, and not to worry about "media scandals" and such. This includes killing anyone who might be a suspected enemy.
Wow axon, I am surprised to see you spout such garbage. In a war where you are defending yourself, one could argue that you should be able to use any means necessary in winning. But we are the aggressors here! We supposedly went to Iraq to liberate the iraqi people, and then we just go and shoot whoever looks at us funny?!

And its interesting how you miss the irony of your comment in the wake of what happened to the american. You say we should be able to use "any means necessary" to win, well that is probably the exact sentiment that those who are attacking our soldiers, who beheaded that american and even all the islamic terrorists in general use to justify their actions.



put yourself in the positions of those soldiers...if you saw your buddy's head exploded from enemy fire, you would do the same if put in that position
So your saying the stress of war excuses the abuse at that prison? Well, firstly, those guards at that prison werent the ones on the front lines so they dont have that excuse. Also, you seem to forget that there were rapes and murders at that and other prisons. The stress of war by no means justifies that. Furthermore, that argument will just as easily justify abuse and torture of american POWs and noncombatants in the hands of iraqi fighters. Mistreatment of unarmed prisoners is unjustifiable under and circumstance.

Of course, it cant be avoided in every situation, but thats why we are supposed to have commanders oversee prisions like that to make sure any abuse or potential abusive situations are resolved before they get to the level that they reached at Abu Ghraib. Apparently there werent any there.

loopy
05-12-2004, 01:14 AM
I suppose this is expected retaliation for our actions. I'm not saying I approve of either actions but.....

I'm not accusing him of knowingly allowing the tortures, but I would like to take this oppertunity to thank dear President Bush for this pointless war. I really feel that my tax dollars are being put to good use.

I agree, I think whoever turned the other cheek with the tortures forgot the US facade of stern/all knowing/helpfull, I would guess this is a retaliation, and that there will be more to come.

joshdick
05-12-2004, 01:46 AM
This tragedy makes me question our nation's policy against negotiating with terrorists. According to the murderers in the video, Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., would still be alive today had the United States traded him for some prisoners our nation is detaining. Why again is it that we don't negotiate with terrorists? I'd think that if we can save lives, we should do so.

Also, I wonder how it is that civilian Americans are being captured. With something like 150,000 military troops there, why is our nation not providing protection to our citizens in Iraq? I'd think that assigning military bodyguards to our citizens there is well worth it rather than lose innocent civilians.

nvoigt
05-12-2004, 03:13 AM
Barbaric doesn't even begin to describe this.


Well... it looks like... war ?

I know it's highly unamerican and unpatriotic to say that "war is hell" ( bad american this Mr. Sherman ), but it seems to be true.

VirtualAce
05-12-2004, 03:50 AM
Appeasement never works. Ask France.

ZakkWylde969
05-12-2004, 06:04 AM
Where are these terrorist websites I always hear about? I've yet to actually come across one

Xterria
05-12-2004, 06:27 AM
you're so completely ignorant and close-minded... I don't know why I even bother talking to you...
ok, besides that, what kind of problems would lay in such a solution? there aren't any.

ZakkWylde969
05-12-2004, 06:35 AM
Didn't we try for about 12 years to stop Saddam politically? And when Clinton sent those bombs over to the middle east, did we complain? I'm just curious about that. I mean, if we tried to stop Saddam for 12 years, with no success it seems to me like military action is the only way.

vasanth
05-12-2004, 06:52 AM
WTF's wrong eith these people... Chopping the head is in no way going to solve theri problems...

ober
05-12-2004, 08:09 AM
Quoted from FD: (hope you don't mind DK!)
when i frist got word from cnn about this i felt bad for the guy.

then my good buddy, npr told me some more details and i no longer feel bad for him. npr told me that he was a small business owner over in iraq of his own "free will" (i.e. he decided to go over there to try to find a job he can do). the iraqui interim gov't found him and told he to leave, as it would be in his best interests. american troops found him and told him to go home, as it was too dangerous for him to be out there. guess what - he didn't.

i'm sorry, perhaps i am a jaded heartless [edit], but you have got to be some special kind of stupid to be in a war zone and expect sympathy.

i feel bad for his family b/c they have to deal with this b/c he made stupid decisions.Maybe the media should start telling the truth.

webmaster
05-12-2004, 09:21 AM
Quoted from FD: (hope you don't mind DK!)Maybe the media should start telling the truth. Characterizing him as a small business owner looking for work is a bit disingenuous according to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-American-Beheaded-Victim.html).

From the article linked below, this quote:


Friends and family of Berg said he was a ``free spirit'' who wanted to help others -- working in Ghana, in one example -- and that his going to Iraq fit with that ideology.

Second, the media did "tell the truth (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq.html)", if by truth you mean that he was warned to leave Iraq.

It's somewhat unclear what the timeline of his stay in Iraq was, and to what extent his motivations were mercenary or altruistic, but the media did a fairly full job of reporting on the story at least from the aspect of what Berg was told.

Shadow12345
05-12-2004, 09:26 AM
oh man, first link doesn't work, second one you need to register to read

DrakkenKorin
05-12-2004, 09:37 AM
linky-poo (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040512%2F0605096420.htm&sc=1107&photoid=20040511PX104&floc=NW_1-T) to the us warnings to get out of iraq (i haven't read it)

kermi3
05-12-2004, 09:43 AM
Ok, first of all, I think this is an important topic, and I haven't replied yet...so this may be a bit long, sorry.

(post by post...)

axon:

you saw your buddy's head exploded from enemy fire....ITS WAR FOR CRYING OUTLOUD!!
There's a reason that you don't do it, and it's taught to every soilder. The reason the anti-torture rules and Genovena convention rules are in place (and the reason we follow them) is to avoid retaliation in kind. I realize that we aren't fighting an enemy that is going to follow them 100%, but the more ammunition we give them the more they will retailate and the easier time they will have recruiting more people to attack us.

While I agree with you that we can't leave now that we're in, that doesn't mean use any means nessicary to maintain peace. After we leave, if the new Iraqi government, Iraqi people, and the rest of the Arab world is ........ed off at us because of our tactices, we are in trouble. We cannot afford to have instability in the Middle East, or have them dislike us that much. Not only does it breed terrorism, but it also threatens our oil supply (Insert eviromental arguement here).

Novacain -
I'm not totally convinced we knew about the torture, and I certainly don't think that the war was a good idea. However, prior to the war, Saddam was a threat to the area. I'm not saying that the current situation is preferable, but I think some of the bases were warrented. Of course, it was Saudi's land, if they wanted us gone, we should have left.

From Zach L.'s post -

To say, "That is why we are America, we protect," is foolish. We protect our interests. I'm not saying we should not protect our interests -- we would be foolish not to -- but it is very difficult to justify many of our actions as protecting others. .

I absolutely agree. The biggest arguement I hear now from those in the US who support the war is that we had to protect them from Saddam (whoops no more WMDs...). To be frank, I think that arguement is bull. I agree Saddam was a terrable dictator, but there are a lot of terrible dictators out there. The US is not the world's police. The entire world is made of different cultures and beliefs, and it is not the US's place to say who is wrong and who needs to leave power. Moreover, we can't afford to enforce it. War ain't cheap, and I'm not just talking about money or the lives of soilders. The negative PR (to put it lightly) from ignoring the rest of the world and getting people mad at us is going to hurt or global trade and going to increase terrorism.


On the humanitarian side, the US is certainly no saint While this is certainly true (as DavidP so eloquently detailed), the US isn't all bad either. We give out a lot of forgien aid, (See the http://www.usaid.gov/]US Agency for International Development).

I'm not going to really drone on much longer...but for many of the arguements that I've already made, plus the enviromental ones (you can call me an educated hippie if you must...) nuking ain't an option....

Anyway, there are some of my broad views....feel free to pick them apart if you wish.

webmaster
05-12-2004, 10:11 AM
oh man, first link doesn't work, second one you need to register to read
I'm pretty sure I'm not registered with the NY Times and both of the links work fine for me. Here are the URLs:
first link: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-American-Beheaded-Victim.html
second link: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq.html

Also, these are actually AP articles, rather than articles written by Times reporters, so the text introducing the link should read "According to the AP" rather than "according to the New York Times". Sorry for confusing the sources.

ober
05-12-2004, 10:41 AM
No, I'm pretty sure you are registered with NY Times. I get a screen telling me to register.

DrakkenKorin
05-12-2004, 10:48 AM
echo ober.

webmaster
05-12-2004, 10:55 AM
Well I'll be darned. I sure don't remember registering. I have to finish some work, but later on I'll find those articles from another source.

major_small
05-12-2004, 10:56 AM
same here... I was considering signing up to see the story until I got to the "select exclusive benefits" part... I would have even gone past the "tell us about yourself" part until I saw that...

DavidP
05-12-2004, 10:57 AM
just register, it takes like 30 seconds.

wow we have both webmaster and kermi active in this thread, that doesnt happen often :p

major_small
05-12-2004, 11:03 AM
just register, it takes like 30 seconds.I would, but like I just said, I don't like registering for things that offer a page and a half of "exclusive benefits"

DavidP
05-12-2004, 11:13 AM
dude, notice that those things are opt-in and not opt-out, you dont have to mark any of them. if you dont mark any of them, then you dont get any of them. it is not that hard.

ober
05-12-2004, 11:20 AM
Well I'll be darned. I sure don't remember registering. I have to finish some work, but later on I'll find those articles from another source.
You could just copy the articles and post them here for us. :)