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View Full Version : This news story will make you mad as @!$#



VirtualAce
04-28-2004, 03:52 PM
This guy is getting rich off of taking away good paying jobs.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20040427/ts_latimes/helltakeyourjobandshipit

Lurker
04-28-2004, 04:13 PM
You're right, that is bull...........

Speedy5
04-28-2004, 04:21 PM
That is pretty messed up but still: "If you're a Web programmer, I'm sorry, you have no right to think you can keep your job in the U.S. if you're using the same technology that existed four years ago," Vashistha says. "You've got to keep moving up. You've got to keep going back to school…. If you're not going to do that, you're going to lose your job."

He has a point there but corporations should not export jobs oversees or else we'll end up with a larger upper class and smaller middle class.

JaWiB
04-28-2004, 05:17 PM
>>But there is good news too: In the long term, companies that save money this way will generate new jobs, he says, which will go to workers who are willing to reinvent themselves.

Sounds like crap to me...

In the meantime we have high unemployment here and people over in other countries working for less than they deserve

Fordy
04-28-2004, 05:31 PM
>>In the long term, companies that save money this way will generate new jobs, he says, which will go to workers who are willing to reinvent themselves.

Yeah..absolute rubbish - companies invest in foriegn outsourcing to save payroll costs...then they will use those savings towards other jobs dreamed up as a consequence! Total rubbish. The only reason for doing this is to create a higher Earnings Per Share ratio for shareholders

It's sad that all sorts of jobs are vanishing locally as they are all being transfered to places like India where the companies can pay a pittance for labour. My sister works for a pretty big bank and they are all worried that soon their jobs will dissapear as thier services are transfered across the globe...though in this country (UK) I cant see anyone political fighting to do anything about it. Far too concerened with Iraq and whatever women is sleeping with David Beckham at the moment!

Dante Shamest
04-28-2004, 07:15 PM
Its a global economy. Live with it.

P.S. You can tell I'm not from the USA or the UK. :)

spoon_
04-28-2004, 07:41 PM
Its a global economy. Live with it.

P.S. You can tell I'm not from the USA or the UK. :)


Feel free to STFU until your company starts exporting YOUR job else where. Your dick headed comments dont add anything to the discussion.

jlou
04-28-2004, 08:18 PM
I agree, it's a global economy, live with it.

If an american loses his $80,000 a year job and has to work at Blockbuster for $15,000 a year, he is still living better than the person in India who got his job instead. Those who complain sound like a bunch of whiners.

If you lose your job because of outsourcing, well, yes, that sucks for you, but that doesn't make it wrong. It's really the same idea as when companies move jobs from big expensive cities to smaller towns with lower costs of living and can therefore pay lower salaries and make more money. Just because it is now another country doesn't make it any different in my eyes.

And my company (based here in the U.S.) has outsourced jobs to developing countries, although they haven't gotten rid of mine, yet. I guarantee you that I'd feel the same way about this issue if and when it does happen. It isn't personal.

RoD
04-28-2004, 08:26 PM
good for him

spoon_
04-28-2004, 08:27 PM
the main reason why companies here in the U.S. and elsewhere are exporting jobs is because of the tax breaks. You must have overlooked that, HUH? How is that good? U.S. companies contributing to the deterioration of their own economy by sending jobs elsewhere because of tax breaks?

Ohhhh right, who cares if i lose my 80,000 dollar a year job and have to work at blockbuster for 15,000 a year. Wow, where did my $50,000 - $75,000 dollar education go? THIS IS ABOUT QUALITY OF LIFE. That tax break is RUINING some americans quality of life. Its not right.

Honestly, I really hope you eat <Mod edit> and you do get outsourced, we'll see if you take that $15,000 a year job, fool.

Must be a republican.

jlou
04-28-2004, 08:46 PM
Honestly, I really hope you eat <Mod edit> and you do get outsourced, we'll see if you take that $15,000 a year job, fool.Actually, I'd be happy to do it if that was necessary. Of course I doubt it will be. Even if my job is outsourced, I have the skills and the mindset to get a different one that is heck of a lot better than at a video store. Of course, that's why I feel lucky to live in the U.S. Even those who don't have skills can find a way to make a decent living compared to people in the rest of the world.
That tax break is RUINING some americans quality of life. Its not right.Umm, sounds like whining to me. "Oh no, I can't afford to eat at The Olive Garden any more. I have to buy generic canned goods so I can afford to put my children through college! It's just not right!"
Must be a republican.?? Sarcasm ??

Speedy5
04-28-2004, 08:59 PM
If you don't want to be outsourced, the solution is simple. Be a leader, show potential, learn all the new technologies so that employers see you as a valuable asset to the company. Competition is what its all about. If you can't handle spending an hour a night studying new stuff then maybe you deserve to work at blockbuster because that guy in India is able to it enough so that he gets hired (because companies still want quality employees).

VirtualAce
04-28-2004, 09:59 PM
Its obvious that some of you don't realize what outsourcing really is all about. Those that are saying we are whiners obviously either have not been in the work force long or have been duped into some pious false dream of a global economy. There is more at work under the table folks and if you can't see the writing on the wall then you are not paying much attention to whats going on. And its also very easy to say those things when its not YOUR job on the line.

Show some respect, show some courtesy, show some dignity, and more than that try to care for someone other than just yourself. If you do not have any constructive or at least somewhat mature and knowledgeable comments other than personal attacks - DONT POST HERE - we don't want your feedback. You can disagree all you want but getting personal and making attacks or statements like we are whiners simply shows the maturity level of the poster. Better for you to remain quiet and us think you are an ass than for you to post here and remove all doubt.

There are a lot of people that are unemployed right now and a lot of families that are suffering here. As far as the other nations go they suffer due to their governments and other circumstances, not because of us. I'm rather sick of the victim mentality as it relates to other countries. The United States and other countries like the UK and Europe did not just magically become some of the world's richest countries...we all worked hard for it and we'll be damned if anyone is ever going to take that from us. Now they think handing jobs out to other countries is going to magically create some new global economy. It's pure political bullcrap and it will bite them in the butt down the road.

BTW I'm a Republican and I'm not for outsourcing so I'm not sure where the comparison therein lies.

Let's see how this guy would like it if we suddenly canned him and outsourced his job. Have a heart people.




If you don't want to be outsourced, the solution is simple. Be a leader, show potential, learn all the new technologies so that employers see you as a valuable asset to the company. Competition is what its all about. If you can't handle spending an hour a night studying new stuff then maybe you deserve to work at blockbuster because that guy in India is able to it enough so that he gets hired (because companies still want quality employees).


You honestly believe that?? In the amount of time I've been in the workforce it is not your performance that determines where you get...it's who you know and how much butt you kiss. Pure and simple. That might work in the classroom and discussions but unfortunately what you stated, although it sounds good, fair, and reasonable, happens infrequently in real-world business.

Dante Shamest
04-28-2004, 10:15 PM
There's isn't any conspiracy going on. Its basic economics.

A manager or CEO looks at everything in terms of resources (not patriotism, unless required by law). If worker A in country A is cheaper than worker B in country B, its a no-brainer which one the manager/CEO will choose.

Let's say a country decides to stop outsourcing its products. So it passes a law that forbids it and so companies can no longer outsource. What happens? Cost of production go up and companies will have lower revenue and profits. So, they raise their prices on their products and services, making their products and services less competitive then other countries' products. In the end those companies will lose out. They will then slash their workforce anyway.

jlou
04-29-2004, 12:21 AM
Bubba, I assume that you were for the most part referring to me, since I was the only one referring to whining.
If you do not have any constructive or at least somewhat mature and knowledgeable comments other than personal attacks - DONT POST HERE - we don't want your feedback. You can disagree all you want but getting personal and making attacks or statements like we are whiners simply shows the maturity level of the poster.Please understand the difference between "sounds like whining" or "sound like a bunch of whiners" and something like "you are just a bunch of whiners". There is a big difference. My point is that complaints about losing your quality of life ring hollow when compared to the quality of life of those who benefit from that practice. Also please note, that a better example of an unconstructive or immature comment that is a personal attack might be something like, "I really hope you eat <Mod edit> and you do get outsourced, we'll see if you take that $15,000 a year job, fool."
Its obvious that some of you don't realize what outsourcing really is all about. Those that are saying we are whiners obviously either have not been in the work force long or have been duped into some pious false dream of a global economy. There is more at work under the table folks and if you can't see the writing on the wall then you are not paying much attention to whats going on. And its also very easy to say those things when its not YOUR job on the line.Again, I assume you are referring to my comments. While I might not have been part of the work force for very long, I can assure you that my very job IS on the line, and again, I guarantee you that I would say the same things regardless of that fact.
Show some respect, show some courtesy, show some dignity, and more than that try to care for someone other than just yourself. ...

There are a lot of people that are unemployed right now and a lot of families that are suffering here. As far as the other nations go they suffer due to their governments and other circumstances, not because of us. I'm rather sick of the victim mentality as it relates to other countries. The United States and other countries like the UK and Europe did not just magically become some of the world's richest countries...we all worked hard for it and we'll be damned if anyone is ever going to take that from us. Now they think handing jobs out to other countries is going to magically create some new global economy. It's pure political bullcrap and it will bite them in the butt down the road.Back to the actual heart of the issue, which is really an interesting one.

My point is also that one should try to care for someone other than just oneself. If I cared for myself only, I would be outraged about outsourcing. However, I look at those (myself included) who could be affected negatively by it, and then those who would be affected positively by it, and I fail to see the reason for anger. Without paying attention to the nationality of those affected, it seems very likely that the idea is more beneficial to those who get the jobs than it is detrimental to those who lose them.

Of course, this affects real people, and I do sympathize with those who lose their jobs because of it. It is not an easy thing to go through. But any anger about the injustice of that outcome quickly disappears when I consider the life of the person who just got that job. In the U.S. at least, the opportunities are great to continue with a blessed life. That is especially true for those capable of receiving higher education or determined enough to get that job in the first place.

If you were up for a scholarship you needed, but it was given to somebody else who truly needed it more, and that person wasn't any more qualified for the school than you, but just needed the money more, then would you have the right to be upset? Yes, you would have the right to be upset that you didn't get that scholarship. That doesn't mean it was wrong to give it to the person who needed it more. That doesn't mean that somebody who doesn't know you should be upset that it didn't go to you because you lived in the same neighborhood and you needed it.

Of course, companies that outsource are not doing it to be helpful to workers in other countries, but I still don't see how you can be angry when they need it more. I'm sorry, it just sounds like whining. We are spoiled here, even when things get worse, they are still great.

adrianxw
04-29-2004, 01:38 AM
I have been in the work force since the late '70's. Call me a whining whinger if you like - I really don't care.

I was an employee of a Danish firm, bought out by an American Corporation, asset stripped, then closed with the loss of all but a few jobs, (people forced to relocate to other countries).

My question is, why is the "quality of life" in the US more important then the same anywhere else? I am not making a personal comment against any one person, but it does appear that employees in the US are uncomfortable about being on the receiving end of something their businesses routinely hand out around the globe.

spoon_
04-29-2004, 07:23 AM
I really don't believe all the B.S. I am reading. WTF is wrong with you people?

"I wouldn't care if I lost my $80,000/year job and had to get another job for $15,000/year - as long as it helped someone over there."

That is rediculous, absolutely retarded to think that. Even if it does help some Indian over in India or where ever, it DOESN'T HELP YOU. It doesn't help the economy YOU ARE IN. Companies are doing this for the TAX BREAKS, and of course, cheaper employees, but I bet once the tax breaks are gone (thx john kerry, cya bush (aka super llama)), jobs will start returning to where they belong.

It is wrong for an American company to send jobs overseas because of a tax break. Thats all there is to it.

But I'm a whiner because I don't want to lose my job I worked so damn hard to get. I don't give a rats ass about the Indians getting our jobs. I care about having a GOOD JOB to support MY FAMILY. It's about having enough money to support my family in a reasonable fashion. It's about having enough money to pay the high taxes we here in America pay. It's about helping my child through the college he/she earns his/her way into. To hell with India, their country is like it is because of them and no one else. They are in control of their economy, HELP YOURSELFS. (GO Modernization Theory).

And WTF are these mod edits? Jesus, this world is going straight to hell. The kids being born in the 90's are going to be a bunch of sissy ass clowns and everyone will turn out gay. Wah wah wah, he cussed, wah wah wah.

oh and, sorry for the personal attacks, i tend to respond to stupidity with SUPREME stupidity, you know, give you a taste of your own medicine.

jlou: if you really care soooooo much about the poor indians, why don't you join the peace core and go help out eh?

adrianx: bought out, but you still have your job. Do you understand what is going on here? American works are forced to TRAIN the person they are losing their job (because of a tax break, yep yep, emphasis on the tax break, that is the real problem here, plz vote john kerry thx) to or they lose their severence pay.

adrianxw
04-29-2004, 07:40 AM
>>> but you still have your job

Nope, I didn't want to move to San Diego, I was made redundant. The manager installed in the firm to do the asset stripping was an American, nice enough guy, nothing personal. Since he was on a fixed term contract, he was admitted into Denmark on a special tax incentive scheme whereby overseas "experts" were permitted to work in Denmark for up to 3 years and pay only 20% tax.

We were going to his meetings, telling him what our assets were and how they could be ported, and paying 52% tax at the same time.

Now, tell me again why what you are doing is worse.

Govtcheez
04-29-2004, 07:57 AM
I'm about as liberal as they come, but saying "must be a Republican" is really ignorant. EVERY poilitician is a friend of big business; whoever's in power is just the one who gets blamed.

I need to go take a shower - I feel dirty now.

vasanth
04-29-2004, 08:37 AM
But I'm a whiner because I don't want to lose my job I worked so damn hard to get. I don't give a rats ass about the Indians getting our jobs.

To hell with India, their country is like it is because of them and no one else. They are in control of their economy, HELP YOURSELFS. (GO Modernization Theory).


You are right.. each country is incharge of their own economy.. you play your game we play ours **to get more jobs imported****...

vasanth
04-29-2004, 08:45 AM
and about this gloabl economy <Mod edit> you are all talking about.. it was first your countries which started it wanting market access into other asian countries.. well now its working the other way round and we dint complain when your multinationals sold us your produce and we dont complain now either....:D:D:D **puts on flame proof jacket**

Govtcheez
04-29-2004, 08:53 AM
> we dint complain when your multinationals sold us your produce and we dont complain now either...

How did that affect Indian jobs?

vasanth
04-29-2004, 09:14 AM
> we dint complain when your multinationals sold us your produce and we dont complain now either...

How did that affect Indian jobs?
Because of your multinationsla dumping good our local industries suffered and many of them closed down leading to job losses.... But no one complained since the good were of better quality and in some cases cheaper because of mass production but this was in the 80's and 90's... Old story

scrappy
04-29-2004, 07:10 PM
Those who don't care about those people whose jobs' are outsourced, how would you like it if you work in school, through college, and in the workplace to get a decent paying job, and then all of a sudden, your job is gone?

jverkoey
04-29-2004, 07:46 PM
I'm going to flat out say that I'm not in the workforce, to avoid any flaming caused by this.

What I'd like to say is that I'm a Junior in High School and one thing I've noticed is that more and more people that I know (as peers) who were once willing to go in to the technology field are now reluctant to do it, because they don't believe that they will have a job. It seems a lot of the people who have posted here so far are in college/university/working and all have very strong opinions. I just want to point out that all of this outsourcing isn't exactly doing justice for some of the teens out there today looking towards going in to technology.

And without as many people going in to technology, how can we expect to have a strong future in tech?

You may disagree with me, that's fine, this is merely my opinion and what I think.

VirtualAce
04-29-2004, 09:41 PM
Outsourcing in itself is flawed economically.

The very companies that made their wealth are actually destroying that source of wealth. If their are not any good paying jobs in a country then that self-same company cannot do business in that country simply because they must slash prices so low as to hardly turn a profit.

So when you continually outsource or over-outsource you are simply destroying the very customer base that built your business. Outsource all of the jobs to some other country and save money - at the current profit levels. However there will be a point at which, if every other company outsources as well, where no one in the country will be able to afford another companies products thus reducing profit levels. Then what is that company going to do...attempt to market their product in another country where they must lower the price in order to even sell the thing simply because so many companies are paying low wages in that country?? I think not.

Destroying your own customer base is akin to financial suicide. Unless their are high paying jobs or a high amount of wealth in the country or one of the countries you are marketing in...you will not make it.

So go ahead and outsource American businesses and I will laugh my ass off when you no longer have the customers you used to because you outsourced them too. It is a downward spiral and it won't work or last. So you can outsource some to remain competitive which in itself is a big misnomer. You might slash your costs but eventually if other companies do it as well they will slash their costs and your profits because there won't be anyone who can afford your product.

It's like price wars. No one wins in a price war and often smaller businesses just dont make it when the pressure is to sell cheaper and cheaper. This is a huge economical imbalance and just like price wars....no one will win.

golfinguy4
04-29-2004, 09:47 PM
I agree w/Bubba. Everyone knows the famous story how Ford increased his sales. (If you don't, he doubled his employees wages so that they could buy his cars)

novacain
04-29-2004, 10:59 PM
>>it was first your countries which started it wanting market access into other asian countries.. well now its working the other way round<<

That’s the bottom line. The corporations started this, to get increased markets and lower wage costs. No one cared at the time and now it is too late to stop it.

I have had to move into implementation from R&D.

>>My question is, why is the "quality of life" in the US more important then the same anywhere else?<<

With an election in the US we are hearing more about the adverse effects it is having. I am wondering if it will disappear again after the election or if we are seeing the start of a real backlash. My bet is on the former.

>>If worker A in country A is cheaper than worker B in country B, its a no-brainer which one the manager/CEO will choose.<<

Not really, if you consider the long term.

Outsourcing will reduce the buying power of the population, by reducing its salary / disposable income. Combined with increased living costs (house prices especially) you may actually reduce the demand for your goods/service.

Also you reduce the experience level. If we get another Y2K like situation and suddenly need masses of developers, they might not be available.

Its a no brainer because it will make the CEO a lot of money. Spin it the right way and we may not notice until it is too late.

>> It's really the same idea as when companies move jobs from big expensive cities to smaller towns with lower costs of living and can therefore pay lower salaries and make more money.<<

At least then the money stays in the local economy. That is the workers still pay taxes and buy their goods at local stores. For each local worker unemployed, one is employed so there is no net change in employment and so low net cost to the economy.

>>who cares if i lose my 80,000 dollar a year job and have to work at blockbuster for 15,000 a year.<<

The government, as it is missing out on those extra tax dollars. The local shops, where you would have spent the other dollars.

>>Cost of production go up and companies will have lower revenue and profits.<<

Why would cost go up? Why do profits have to rise exponentially each year? (think about where the profit comes from)

>>I look at those (myself included) who could be affected negatively by it, and then those who would be affected positively by it, and I fail to see the reason for anger.<<

Its because the profit gained is not returned to those generating it. We the consumer/taxpayer are adversely affected for no gain. We will pay higher taxes to compensate for those sent overseas. (remember goods and services also are taxed ie fuel so when you don't buy as much it costs the government)

And when the corporations find another country that is more 'cost effective' (willing to pay and tax less) they will move again.

okinrus
04-29-2004, 11:13 PM
A truly globalized economy will result in aggressive division between classes as more competeting forces are at work. Sure the business owners high up will gain some short terms profit but the result will be marginalized economy only slightly better than India's.

I find arguments that Indian workers are working for drastically cheaper wages sort of invalid because the cost of living in India is comparatively cheaper than in the US. American workers cannot compete unless if the cost of living in America goes down.

If individual workers were being considered by ability, then it would be one thing. Capitalism thrives because of individual merit and sense of opportunism. But these jobs were exported not in a case by case fashion but to the lowest bidder.

VirtualAce
04-30-2004, 03:59 PM
Very well put novacain and okinrus. CNN did a special on this some time back and even leading economists said that exporting jobs would simply deteriorate and already deteriorated economy. They themselves even said that this is a no-win situation and truly at the bottom of all of it...spin it how you may....is simply corporate greed...nothing else.

And...if you will look at some figures being put out by honest corporations....production costs are not on the rise as most think and definitely not increasing at such a rate that companies cannot make a profit.

Having had a business in prior times I can say that if you pour money into the local economy through your wages, then that local economy will in turn pour money back into your business which, in turn, will allow you to pour more money back into the economy by raising wages. It's simple economics, simple mathematics, extremely simple to grasp and it works. But if you horde the money you make and claim that you are not increasing wages due to rising productions costs (which I believe has just become a catch phrase for greed) and do not increase your wages then they, your employees, cannot pour into the local economy aka: spend their money....and then those who would have profited from them cannot in turn invest back into your business. The cycle ends at your doorstep simpy because of your own greed. It is extremely important to pour money back into the economy if you really want to stay in business and maintain a healthy and profitable customer base.

And if you truly think costs are rising so high then why are we finding out that many many many businesses are involved in huge scandals relating to inflated cost figures. There is a recent one in which a company over-charged the government to feed the soldiers in Iraq by over a million dollars ....in the name of cost.
Yes costs do increase over time but not nearly as fast as to warrant the current mass exodus of jobs. It will come back to haunt us and some companies here in the United States have recognized this and are beefing up staffing here as well as overseas. In other words, they are seeing new growth in new areas and growth in already existing areas...not just transfer growth from one area to the next. Think about it when you simply transfer a job from one country to the next that is not growth because you have not created anything and, in fact, you have very much hurt your local economy because you are taking away from it....not adding to it.

So if you want to grow a business then go ahead and create jobs overseas for I'm not against that at all....but don't destroy jobs in one place to claim you are 'creating' jobs in another. It's a misnomer....you are simply relocating the same job and perhaps, but not always, reducing the experience level and educational level of those filling that transferred position.

Waldo2k2
05-01-2004, 12:07 AM
I don't want to get involved with any of the arguments going on right now, but I think outsourcing is wrong in any situation. It doesn't matter what country does it with what other country, it hurts the national economy. And that's wrong for a business person, especially in capitalist systems, to do. Self sufficiency is what drives a nation to succeed financially...relying heavily on outside resources, including jobs overseas, screws everything up. I don't see this guy as any kind of revolutionary figure...just another cut-throat out to ride the latest trend and make a quick buck, regardless of the little guy. Same as rockefeller and others did in the US in the early early part of the 20th century.

novacain
05-01-2004, 08:42 PM
I want to add that I understand this must happen, but think the current globalisation model is flawed. A global economy is what must eventually happen if the world is to eliminate poverty ect. Something must be done but it must be more universal rather than confined to labor only.

Otherwise the equality of conditions we will all share is poverty, except for those who become ultra rich as a result.

All you have to do is look at banking to understand we don't have a true global economy.
If we did, I clould borrow money anywhere, credit is just another commodity like labor or goods.
That is I could borrow money in the US (1% cash rate) and invest it in Australia (4.5% cash rate) and never work again.

Here outsourcing is hitting both ways.
Many jobs are sent to India, even the 51% gov owned telecommunications company sent 450 R&D jobs to India (thats about the number of jobs available in my city per year).
But we get jobs from the UK, as we are paid the same amount but in Au$ not pounds (1:2.25), have available workers who speak technical/scientific level english and have a favourable time difference (we fix problems during/over the UK night).

EvBladeRunnervE
05-03-2004, 08:22 AM
actually, I was looking at some charts in the recent Wired magazine, and even though the US exported ~100k tech jobs, we gained ~350k tech jobs, so net jobs = 350 -100 = 250k. I dont see the real problem with the Indians taking over our programming jobs as they tend to be better performers than their US counterparts; however, I have an aquaintance in China who says the Chinese tend to stay away from Indian programmers as Indians tend to put backdoors/trojans in all/most of their software(maybe Vasanth would like to clarify this).

Waldo2k2
05-03-2004, 10:28 AM
does that mean that there are 25000 more people employed in tech jobs this year than last? I highly doubt it...just because the jobs have been created doesn't mean we actually have people filling the positions.

EvBladeRunnervE
05-03-2004, 11:24 AM
if jobs are created, and people are not filling them, then that sort of defeats the argument that there are "tons of tech people unemployed" because one would then expect those jobs to immediately be filled if that were the case.

SMurf
05-03-2004, 11:40 AM
...however, I have an aquaintance in China who says the Chinese tend to stay away from Indian programmers as Indians tend to put backdoors/trojans in all/most of their software(maybe Vasanth would like to clarify this).
Careful, you're verging on slander there... :eek:

I'm curious as to why they don't outsource executive jobs. I mean, from a labour point of view, couldn't they easily pay some dude in the Far East a few dollars an hour to do their job? They wouldn't need to fly them over to look at outsourcing deals either, as they live there, so a company could make HUGE savings. :p

What Western countries need to do is to fill a B52 with their best, fattest, most annoying trade union leaders and drop them over the Far East under the cover of darkness. They could infiltrate the work chain, make themselves out to be "obviously" more important than others (As usual) and before you know it, they'll have entire countries on strike until their workers are paid fairly (By Western standards). That way, it would cost roughly the same to have workers anywhere in the world and only then would anyone see what this buzzword "tax breaks" that seems to have been invented in this thread can really do.

laserlight
05-03-2004, 11:40 AM
Well, it could be that the type of jobs created did not fit the scope of those who lost their jobs.

Waldo2k2
05-03-2004, 12:09 PM
yeah, and jobs created could mean that there is a demand for x amount of people, but either A: the companies don't have the resources to hire B:like laserlight said C:don't believe everything that wired magazine says. If you think about it, would the market be as bad as it is, and all sorts of people be unemployed if there was such an influx of jobs? The answer simply is no. Either wired magazine is bs'ing, or they're using statistics they don't tell you the full story on.

EvBladeRunnervE
05-03-2004, 12:49 PM
well, as I said before, it doesnt matter if foreigners take the jobs, IF they are more qualified than US counterparts(in most cases they are, excluding MIT/CMU/Stanford grads). The reason they dont export executive jobs that, believe it or not, there are fewer people with good business talent then there are people with good programming/tech skills, these people are hard to replace with foreigners because of the language barrier... not to mention the potential security risks many companies see in hiring foreign executives.



Careful, you're verging on slander there...

no, I am not, as I am stating that I have HEARD that they do it, not that they ARE doing it. It was no where close to slander.

EDIT: I have not been corrupted into believing a global economy, it's that IMHO tech jobs were way overpayed to begin with.

CoderBob
05-03-2004, 03:28 PM
no, I am not, as I am stating that I have HEARD that they do it, not that they ARE doing it. It was no where close to slander.


That's not necessarily a defense against libel (slander is verbal, libel is written). Basically, what you are doing is spreading a rumor, and rumor-spreading in that fashion is not protected speech (because a statement of fact can be either "stated or implied" and what you have said contains an implication of a fact) assuming it meets the remaining criteria for libel (a false statement of fact made about a living person who is identifiable which tends to injure that persons reputation and which is published with the required level of fault). Now, you may have made a false statement, which I argue is a statement of fact. It is published -- published has a very open interpretation; you could get sued by "publishing" information to only a single source. (Newspapers have been sued for "publishing" internal memos to the FBI -- and lost.) It is about a person or persons who are alive. You might be protected by the fact that you are not making this claim about an identifiable person -- usually for someone to be identified it doesn't have to name the person; it can be about a group of people if it's small enough that one could reasonably believe that it's any of those individuals, in which case you effectively libel all of them. I believe you could defend yourself on these grounds.

Waldo2k2
05-04-2004, 09:01 AM
he said something stupid and insensitive,
let's forget about it before this turns into a flame war

EvBladeRunnervE
05-05-2004, 07:59 AM
It was neither stupid nor insensitive, I think people need to thoroughly investigate whoever is writing their programs, be it caucasian Americans, or Indians. The problem is that the US Corporations have yet to my knowledge ask any country that has dealt with certain colleges/companies of their ethical standards. Plus, it may be a cultural deal, such as the fact that many cultures view what we call "infringing on intellectual property rights" as actually honoring the people that own them as they are building upon someones ideas. That is the reason I was asking Vasanth to clarify(as who knows, it might of reached the local newspapers but wasnt deemed important enough for world wide news) as I know many Indians at my university, and most of them are upstanding individuals( and tend to beat the socks off of their US born-and-raised counterparts).

DavidP
05-05-2004, 08:56 AM
Either wired magazine is bs'ing, or they're using statistics they don't tell you the full story on.


Yeah I bet there is information there that they are not revealing. For example, 250k jobs might have opened up, but maybe that is actually a lot lower than normal and they are not telling you that.

For example, maybe back 5 years ago it was the norm for 750k jobs to open up every year, but now it has steadily been decreasing as outsourcing increases.

That was just an example, not real.

EvBladeRunnervE
05-05-2004, 09:05 AM
For example, maybe back 5 years ago it was the norm for 750k jobs to open up every year, but now it has steadily been decreasing as outsourcing increases.

yes, it might of been that high 5 years ago, but most people would agree that the tech industry's growth was unfounded both financially and in many cases companies didnt make a single penny of profit when their stock was soaring from the low 10s up to the 30s and 40s. So I would say that the current growth rate is what should be expected. Also , how does it hurt the US? We are paying people overseas wages that are extremely generous concerning the cost of living etc., and it actually grows the consumer market, as instead of only euros/americans being able to purchase technology, Indians and South East Asians can now purchase our goods. It is a win/win situation, except for the people that had their services over-valued and lost 80-90K dollar a year jobs.

VirtualAce
05-05-2004, 02:09 PM
They aren't paying good salaries for those jobs overseas. That is the problem. The money flow is stopping at their company and as such it will come back to haunt them.

As far as the statement concerning qualifications...I believe your statement is too encompassing and not at all true in every instance.

Face it, we can spin it how we want...but some big wigs somewhere are making a killing off of it. Thats the plain and simple truth - its just about greed.

EvBladeRunnervE
05-05-2004, 03:27 PM
They aren't paying good salaries for those jobs overseas. That is the problem. The money flow is stopping at their company and as such it will come back to haunt them.

As far as the statement concerning qualifications...I believe your statement is too encompassing and not at all true in every instance.

Face it, we can spin it how we want...but some big wigs somewhere are making a killing off of it. Thats the plain and simple truth - its just about greed.

Well, the probleme with your statement is the wages they are paying ARE good wages, for that part of the world. Americans forget that you can get away with <10 USD for your mortgage/rent, and can get food for a few pennies instead of a few quarters. Plus it is the absolute right of those big wigs to make money like they are, and if you dislike it then you can simply not buy their goods.

EDIT : and about qualifications: I know Bubba that you have a couple decades of programming under your belt, and are excellent at it, but you need to realize that most US CS grads are under-educated and lack experience. The fact that India's major technical university was rated 5 out of 5 by CMU doesnt help their credentials either.

Hillbillie
05-07-2004, 02:38 AM
Here are some interesting statistics I think you guys might like...


300,000 people file for unemployment insurance every week, regardless of the current state of the economy.
Approximately 32 million new jobs are created in the US economy every year.
Take the average of the last decade, and you'll find that 32.8 million new jobs were created each year while 31 million jobs were eliminated; the difference is an increase in 1.8 million jobs every year. An interesting note is that the population growth is also about 1.8 million every year: job creation tends to correlate with population growth.
Divide net job creation by jobs created and jobs destroyed and you’ll find that for every net job added, our economy creates 18.4 jobs and destroys 17.4 jobs.
Technology and domestic competition create and destroy many more jobs than job trade ever could.
Kodak laid off 20,000 jobs, not because of job trade but because their technology (film cameras) was losing to newer technology (digital cameras).
Production is up 40% in the last decade. It’s increased twice as much since the 1980s, and three times as much since the 1960s.
A century ago, 40% of Americans were farmers; today less than 2% farm. Does that mean we’ve stopped from being an agricultural producer? No, we produce more agricultural goods today than ever before; farming technology has gotten more efficient.


Source: http://www.cato.org/realaudio/hb-04-02-04.ram

Opponents of job outsourcing (most people in this thread) say it is terrible for the economy because it destroys tons of jobs. Proponents of job outsourcing (a good majority of republican conservatives) say it is good for the economy because it actually creates jobs. Both are right, and both are wrong.

Most economists will tell you that although job trade isn't *good* for the economy immediately, the cause of the trade is good for the economy in long run. The lost jobs in farming in the last century wasn't good on the surface, but just think of all of the new jobs that were created since then in their place because of the increased technology that allowed the drop in the first place...