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Darkman
01-18-2004, 04:48 PM
I never thought I'd use it til I bought a new computer. It's tough to learn C++ through console commands, I can't play my old games because they aren't compatable. It's just a $$$$$.

So I made a FAT32 partition in hope to put win98se on it. I won't know til another week, but I doubt I'll use XP again. It's evil and sickening. How can programmers work on XP? Or am I just flat out wrong with everything?

Feel free to share with this endless debate.

DavidP
01-18-2004, 05:10 PM
Actually you can play old DOS games in XP.

Most old DOS games (not all, but most) should work in XP as long as you turn off the sound.

I don't know why it is that way, but it seems to work. It worked for Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, Liero, and several other DOS games I have.

EvBladeRunnervE
01-18-2004, 05:10 PM
I can't play my old games because they aren't compatable. It's just a $$$$$.

apparently you need to look up Compatability mode, as I can run all of my old dos games fine(heck, even old old games like the original wolfenstein work in compatability mode).


How can programmers work on XP? Or am I just flat out wrong with everything?


how can a programmer work on XP? its relatively simple, XP is loads better than Win98(the horrible memory handling problems come to mind w/ win98).

Brian2
01-18-2004, 05:24 PM
2000 is XP minus the bloat.

Perfect.

sean
01-18-2004, 06:28 PM
I've actually found XP to be a very good OS. I have copies of some of the first graphical adventure games ever made - and I've never had a problem. And what the heck do you mean "learning C++ through console commands"? You know, Windows XP does have the wherewithal to run a simple IDE.

-KEN-
01-18-2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Brian2
2000 is XP minus the bloat.

Perfect.

Hey, way to be completely ignorant.

Oh, no, you're right. Obviously they spent all of the time between 2000 and XP adding wizards and help balloons :rolleyes:

cyberCLoWn
01-18-2004, 06:47 PM
Haha!

XP is a good OS if you don't have *nix. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that XP is Microsoft's best OS out. 2000 is also very good (based on exactly the same kernel) although it's meant for a different market. It's like NT and 98 were never compared. One is for networking and server while the other is meant for home/office use (along with games).

Darkman
01-18-2004, 08:26 PM
Main reason why I hate XP is because it won't run my favorite RPG titled "TES II: Daggerfall." I have to have win98. Those who got it on XP said they've seen invisible monsters attacking you and so forth. If XP is a new version of windows, comparing to win98, shouldn't it run those older games instead of saying "to hell with them?" Now I'm beginning to understand why people say Microsoft sucks. It all started with XP.

cyberCLoWn
01-18-2004, 08:33 PM
XP and 98 are radically different. The reason XP struggles to play legacy games is because those games run from DOS. There is no DOS when it comes to XP. Unlike XP, 98 runs from DOS therefore it's instability. XP uses the NT kernel which is much more stable and is totally unrelated to DOS so whenever u run a DOS based game, it has to run a simulated environment.

Thantos
01-18-2004, 08:36 PM
At a certain point you have to say to hell with backwards compatiblity. Could you imagine the trouble it would to ensure 100% backwards compatiblity and improve the system.

major_small
01-18-2004, 08:42 PM
^I agree... backwards compatibility is great, but some things you just can't support anymore... IMO, you should support as much as possible for as long as possible, but if there's no way to be backward compatible (or if it's too inefficient), you have to know when to let go...

>>How can programmers work on XP?
I haven't seen the BSOD in about a year... when I was working on a 98 machine... now I use XP/2K...

Grayson_Peddie
01-18-2004, 08:45 PM
You can do the following to activate Windows 95 compatibility mode for your game you want to load:

1. Go to My Computer (or Start -> My Computer).

2. Click in the hard drive that your game is installed on and find the game.

3. Right click in the executable and click Properties.

4. In there, click Compatibility tab.

5. Activate the compability mode and choose Windows 95 mode.

Click OK and try to play a game. If it doesn't work, get back to Compatibility tab of the properties and you can choose to enable 256 Color mode, 640x480 mode, and/or disable visual themes. And try to play the game and see if it works. Experiement with different settings for your game.

Darkman
01-18-2004, 09:44 PM
You got me all excited, but darn it didn't work! It would try to load, but then it just goes back to the desktop. Nothing works so far. Any other ideas?

Darkman
01-18-2004, 09:52 PM
Wow.. i got it to work on the c: drive. Then it crashed a few minutes later lol.

RoD
01-18-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Thantos
At a certain point you have to say to hell with backwards compatiblity. Could you imagine the trouble it would to ensure 100% backwards compatiblity and improve the system.

well said, couldnt agree with you more.

Darkman
01-18-2004, 10:18 PM
Ok its working. Thanks :)

Only issue: The sound effects are choppy (probably cuz this is a faster machine). What should I do & what should I download to fix the sound?

sean
01-18-2004, 10:31 PM
If it is because of a faster machine, you can download a utiltiy call Turbo (google, should be easy to find) that slows down your CPU. It's commonly used for slowing down your CPU for time related problems in old games.

UnregdRegd
01-18-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by cyberCLoWn
Haha!

XP is a good OS if you don't have *nix. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that XP is Microsoft's best OS out. 2000 is also very good (based on exactly the same kernel) although it's meant for a different market. It's like NT and 98 were never compared. One is for networking and server while the other is meant for home/office use (along with games).

It's not required but recommended that you drop the l33t attitude: "Haha! XP is a good OS if you don't have *nix."

Actually, Windows 2000 comes in a variety of editions just as previous versions of Windows NT did, including various server editions. Windows XP, Microsoft's upgrade from Windows 2000, comes in flavors suitable for home users and professional users (after the user gets rid of the Playskool theme). For the server side, Microsoft has released various editions of Windows 2003 Server; it builds on the Windows XP operating system. Longhorn is said to be a home and workstation version of Windows 2003 Server with significant shell modifications as well.



XP and 98 are radically different. The reason XP struggles to play legacy games is because those games run from DOS. There is no DOS when it comes to XP. Unlike XP, 98 runs from DOS therefore it's instability. XP uses the NT kernel which is much more stable and is totally unrelated to DOS so whenever u run a DOS based game, it has to run a simulated environment.


You're right: Windows XP is based on Windows 2000, which is based on Windows NT, which is based on OS/2, ad infinitum. Windows 9x/ME is Windows and MS-DOS thrown together, basically. However, NT versions of Windows run MS-DOS applications in a virtualization called the Virtual DOS Machine, which also runs Win16 (Windows 3.xx) applications using a modified version of the Windows 3.11 kernel that thunks Win16 API calls to Win32 API calls. Windows NT-based operating systems cannot, however, restart in MS-DOS mode because there is no real-mode MS-DOS that loads Windows as basically just another DOS program.

Darkman
01-18-2004, 11:18 PM
I used Turbo, but what I found was a reduce of FPS, but it doesn't do anything to the sound/music (which needs the help). Any suggestions?

Darkman
01-18-2004, 11:20 PM
Or wait, is it just my sound card that came with the computer when I bought it? Maybe get Audio Audigy?

anonytmouse
01-18-2004, 11:38 PM
>>At a certain point you have to say to hell with backwards compatiblity.<<

It appears Microsoft agrees:



Note that 64-bit Windows does not support running 16-bit Windows-based applications. ... Attempts to launch 16-bit applications will fail with ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT.

Lack of support for 16-bit DOS, Windows®, or OS/2 applications on 64-bit Windows presents a significant barrier...

64-bit processes cannot load 32-bit DLLs.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/win64/win64/running_32_bit_applications.asp


A massive amount of legacy software will not be able to run. Hopefully someone will release a dos/Win16 emulator.

The 32bit dll issue is as serious. Many applications rely on 32bit COM/normal dlls of which the application author does not have the source.

Shadow
01-18-2004, 11:48 PM
Darkman, you'll more than likely get sound issues in a lot of those older games. Build a computer for older, 80-mid 90's tasks.

Ideas:
Ask around for junk computers. Find a message board that's dedicated to your local area. Ask everybody if they have any computers they want to get rid of. I see this thing once and awhile and there are a huge amount of replies. You'd need a truck to go pick up everything from all the people getting rid of stuff. Mind you, it's not modern technology, but that's not what you're looking for anyways.

Or, put about $100 into it. Use the above methods, while buying the occasional part from a friend, hardware store, or off the internet to fill in the gaps.

$100 got me what's below -

AMD K6 333mhz
128mb ram
independant sound card
56k modem
lan card
cd-rom
video card(bout to replace it with my old geforce 4 tv-out)
20 gb hard drive
win98se loaded, disc included
printer, printer catridges included as well
speakers, mouse, 15" monitor, keyboard

- edit -
Personally, the most pleasant and impressive experience for me has been Windows XP(pro, educational copy).

Darkman
01-19-2004, 12:31 AM
I have a old computer but I'm too lazy to set it up. Maybe I'll have to now.

VirtualAce
01-19-2004, 12:58 AM
Sound for old DOS games will NOT run correctly under XP. Problem is that most of those games attempt to load a sound driver into the HMA or a TSR. Most are interrupt driven and the sound card itself generates an interrupt when it is done playing a 'chunk' of a sample - chunk size specified by how you programmed the DMA. Since sound programming requires so much low-level stuff, like the aforementioned DMA programming, it is highly unlikely that XP will let this go untouched. Many many DOS games will not have correct sound when running under XP - Silent Hunter 1 for example runs perfect but the sound does not work correctly. This is because it attempts to load some Miles sound drivers into memory which XP does not appreciate and/or does not support.

The main diff between XP and DOS is that XP runs in protected mode with segmentation - thus each segment has a 16-bit selector and a 32-bit offset as well as a limit as to what it can access - its address space. The segment descriptor contains all of this information. Problem with DOS is that it set the segment descriptor to 1MB since the processor was in real mode and couldn't access anything outside of 1MB anyways. The space between the 640KB and 1MB boundary is what MS decided to call high memory or upper memory. It is this area that causes a lot of problems on programs that attempt to use it under XP. What XP does is switch to virtual 8086 mode when it attempts to run a DOS program. But there are limitations to virtual 8086 mode so that the program running in it does not overwrite or attempt to access another segment via a selector or overrun its segment limit with an invalid offset into the segment. Wild pointers can do this in an instant. XP does not run on top of/with the DOS kernel as has been mentioned - however there are some very striking similiarities between DOS kernel and XP kernel - so don't believe the hype. Every kernel has certain functions it has to accomodate and in that respect they will not differ. But writing an OS for protected mode with paging enabled is a lot different than writing one for real-mode with no paging options.

For more information on virtual 8086 mode, real mode, and protected mode and the paging mechanism as well as memory management and memory architecture of the x86 family of processors consult the Intel technical reference manuals available for d/l at www.intel.com.

Darkman
01-19-2004, 12:42 PM
And that brings it back to the main topic: xp sucks.

-KEN-
01-19-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Darkman
And that brings it back to the main topic: xp sucks.

:rolleyes:

Install DOS on a seperate partition and go away.

the Wookie
01-19-2004, 07:54 PM
xp isnt that bad actually. ive tweaked it alot with tweakui and a few other programs, i use a 3rd party dis defragmenter (diskeeper), got rid of the kiddy theme and it works perfectly...never crashed or anything. i guess your system needs to be built for it.