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doubleanti
12-29-2003, 03:54 PM
Hey folks, just wondering what you think makes a good song? Something memorable? Something that peaks your imagination or reminds you of things? Is it the lyrics or the groove?

More specifically I am wondering what you might think make good songs out of songs with no vocals.

1veedo
12-29-2003, 04:26 PM
I don't think the vocals realy mater, It's more the 'beat' and such. Take System of a Down for instance , and Tripple X (don't know if that's a moovie or a group) they talk in what sound like a nother language - although I dobt the language exists.

The vocals add to the song, it dosn't matter what they say though.

Govtcheez
12-29-2003, 04:49 PM
It's gotta talk about ice and hos.

Scourfish
12-29-2003, 05:09 PM
They Might be Giants makes good songs.

doubleanti
12-29-2003, 05:52 PM
>It's gotta talk about ice and hos.

Now _that's_ constructive input... =) What was I thinking!?

And I've listened to a few of SOAD's songs, they are rather catchy at that so far as rhythms go. The vocals and druming are no short of over the top at that.

But that's not the sound I'm looking for I think. What else do you think is nice? I'm trying to stray away from 'band' music and 'guitar' music actually. Thanks.

Fahrenheit
12-29-2003, 06:27 PM
I like alot of classic rock, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Cream, Derek & The Dominos, Eagles... etc.

Alot of metal is good too. Old Metallica, Opeth, Pantera, Slayer, Iron Maiden...

minesweeper
12-29-2003, 06:44 PM
>>Hey folks, just wondering what you think makes a good song?<<

Britney Spears, not quite wearing many clothes, dancing provocatively on stage. Lyrics make no difference whatsoever.

But in all seriousness, I like it when people use harmonies (think that's what they are called). You know how in some of Linkin Park's songs they have one guy holding a note whilst another sings over the top and it just blends really well? Well I like that. I guess it's in the same key or something (I'm not very musical so I don't really know what the terms are).

doubleanti
12-29-2003, 08:09 PM
>I like alot of classic rock, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Cream, Derek & The Dominos, Eagles... etc.
>I like it when people use harmonies

I can see that by your Dark Side of the Moon Avatar =)

Actually, I'm trying to stray away from that sort of harmonic music and want to place more emphasis on percussive elements of the music I'm trying to make.

Hm, put it this way, I want to write something you can dance to. And of course, like many, I struggle with repeation... but again the focus is to, well, basically create tones and textures that sound little to nothing like a guitar and standard 'rock' using, well, unfortunately, a guitar, a few effects, and sequencing software.

Um, guess that spoils my intent for now, something like Squarepusher or, oh here's a great example of the kind I am talking about: Bjork. Thanks.

Thantos
12-29-2003, 08:12 PM
One word: Mozart

doubleanti
12-29-2003, 08:15 PM
Again that's rather, no not rather, completely vague, unconstructive, and at that cliche. Oh, and also it's a one line post at which I might as well wave my dusty mod-stick at.

But at any rate I am looking to write something of the sort, a classical guitar piece as a change of pace to all this multi-track layered stuff that is everywhere else. Something like "Avril 14th" by Aphex Twin when compared to everything else of theirs. Something of that sort.

Thantos
12-29-2003, 08:26 PM
Heh, Mozart had a way of constructing the music to get an emotional response. This is what makes a song or piece of music good. It invokes emotions. The lyrics are just there to tell the story, the music is there to make the person feel something.
Another favorite is the Trans-Siberian Orchestra. Their whole purpose is to invoke emotional responses in the listener (and it does). Is that a little less vague?

JaWiB
12-29-2003, 08:29 PM
Has to actually have some tone to it...I can't stand when the vocals are just shouting

Also I think the lyrics are important too; the words should at least make sense (and be understandable), at any rate.

whistlenm1
12-29-2003, 10:22 PM
It's meaning, and the way it makes the listener feels, interpretation is secondary! Its the main reason why a person can like the different genres of music.

frenchfry164
12-30-2003, 10:28 AM
To me, I like a song that makes you think differently. I'm in the drumline at school, and I actually like for people to show me up. It gives me a direction and how I should improve my playing to match and exceed their level. Doing that is what is getting me on snare next year. All I did for a while is just listen/watch other people play, and try to play it better.

Music can inspire you in many ways. That's a clue :p. Make something imspiring, and it will be remembered. That's what I look for in music. I don't care too much about genre. I mean, I listen to mostly metal (Sepultra, Soulfly, Mudvayne, Slayer, Pantera, Rammstein, etc.), but I listen to classical music. One of my favorites is Beethoven (spelling?). Mozart is nice as well.

When you write your music, let your heart go free. It doesn't matter if you make it completely abstract. Abstraction makes music interesting. Sometimes playing notes that aren't on the page is a good thing!

doubleanti
12-30-2003, 11:36 PM
>I actually like for people to show me up. It gives me a direction and how I should improve my playing to match and exceed their level.

Me too, it's a great way to improve as a musician, and so far as technique it has really helped! (it's like programming =) Maybe as time comes on I'll have time to pick apart composition later too.

>Sometimes playing notes that aren't on the page is a good thing!

Actually, on the contrary I am from a rather different school of thought in the sense that though I have studied theory, I am focusing more on the melody and riffs while recording. In fact I usually just solo freely and pick whichever melodies sounded nice for a recurring theme later on (thanks to keen sequencing software!) But there are a few that I've actually taken time to write as they fit the groove and they end up to be in my opinion my best work.

At any rate, music is for me, but I am interested of any of you have any keen references for songwriting so far as structure goes that you might know of!

>Their whole purpose is to invoke emotional responses in the listener (and it does). Is that a little less vague?

Hm, reminds me of Indian Raga at that. Yes that is less vague, thank you very much Thantos! =)

afreedboy
12-30-2003, 11:42 PM
BTW, to make a hiphop song with PC, which software is the best? I try ACID 3.0 Pro. But it lacks of sample. And also I don't want to use samples they have created already. I want to creat myself. Is it possible me to do with just PC?? :rolleyes:

doubleanti
12-30-2003, 11:51 PM
>I want to creat myself. Is it possible me to do with just PC??

Well, I also faced your dilemma so, using Cubase as I am, all I could do is get the percussion to sound a bit more hip-hoppy, as it were. What you could do is simulate dj scratch doing a bit of guitar fiddling, though I do think you may not have that handy. You may try sampling and remixing off records you have or, mp3s rather, lying around the house or harddrive? =) Let me know how your experiments go I would like also to pursue such an avenue! =)

hth!

Waldo2k2
12-31-2003, 12:06 AM
try this:

http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/djpimp/First.mp3

finished mixing that tonight with my friend nate.

doubleanti
01-05-2004, 03:44 AM
Aw phooey I won't be able to have a listen until Tuesday when I get back to Uni... shucks...

Man I wish I could do some waveform shaping but I don't know how just yet... and the sounds coming out of my brother's effects rack well I've heard them just too much, or maybe I'm just spending too much time with this. At any rate, if somehow I ever am able to sell this CD I shall inform you all...

Any ideas? So far I guess you can use soft attack to simulate a violin but I'm rather lazy to learn to program the Line 6's he has cascaded... Does anyone happen to know where I would go about getting addon's for Cubase? I wouldn't want to use midi because I don't have the keyboard, and doing it by hand would take perhaps long and I'm happy as it is. Thanks...

RobR
01-05-2004, 04:43 AM
When (?) it's back up, come to the Making Music forum @FD. You'd be more than welcome.

Meanwhile try www.kvr-vst.com for free & not-so-free add-ons for Cubase (also STW for VST plugins).

If you're interested in sample based stuff, try the free dem of FLStudio (www.flstudio.com). It even allows you to export MPŁ files, but not save native FLS files.

Lastly (shameless plug) http://www.whproductions.com/robr/Goodbye.mp3 was done in FLS with Sampletank Free, as was http://www.whproductions.com/robr/flashdaddee%20hour.mp3 which is kind of non-melodic rhythmic (but sucks a little).

Later.

RobR
01-05-2004, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by 1veedo
......it dosn't matter what they say though.

This board needs a smiley for shaking the head.

face_master
01-05-2004, 05:49 AM
>> I'm trying to stray away from 'band' music and 'guitar' music actually. Thanks.

Uh..why? By "band music" I assume you mean rock...cant help you there cause anything that doesnt have instumentals that are good I cant listen to, Ive never figured out whats so good about a constant "doof doof" noise with some random guy talking about stuff that is lame IMO, or some good looking chick with highly synthesised vocals and light crappy background music.

ober
01-05-2004, 06:53 AM
I didn't read what everyone else posted... but I think any song can be deemed "good" if it makes me tap my feet or nod my head.

I think the point of this thread is bunk. What is "good" to someone is not necessarily good to someone else. We had a discussion over at FD a few days ago about this.

RobR
01-05-2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by ober5861
I didn't read what everyone else posted...

I think the point of this thread is bunk.

Errrr, then you may have missed the point...... :p

DA just wanted some suggestions.

Please don't let this descend into a "my music is better'n yours" post. (And where's Aran?).

ober
01-05-2004, 07:37 AM
well... I did skim some of what was said. But the title alone lends itself to misrepresentation... err... yeah. Something like that.

mithrandir
01-05-2004, 08:09 AM
Dave Brubeck!

face_master
01-05-2004, 08:15 AM
:: waits for Aran to come along ::

RobR
01-05-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by mithrandir
Dave Brubeck!

If you're selling, I'll take 5 :D

ygfperson
01-05-2004, 09:00 AM
rufus wainright? my brother listens to them sometimes... it's worth a try.

as far as a suggestion for what makes a song good...something that's simple enough to be immediately grasped but also complex enough for you to grasp more stuff as you go.

or better yet, something which makes you want to sing along.

doubleanti
01-06-2004, 09:45 AM
>Uh..why? By "band music" I assume you mean rock...cant help you there cause anything that doesnt have instumentals that are good I cant listen to, Ive never figured out whats so good about a constant "doof doof" noise with some random guy talking about stuff that is lame IMO, or some good looking chick with highly synthesised vocals and light crappy background music.<

Hm, well, for example there is an emphasis on the percussive that drives the rhythm instead of the melody that makes it appealing. The dynamic range is much greater. And on top of that it is not a random guy talking about stuff in such cases, nevertheless there are no vocals in my compliations so worry not of that. What highly synthesized vocals are you referring to? It strikes me in your sea of generalizations that you do not know what you are referring to... please explain...

PS Thanks for all the resources folks, I leave in a few hours for Irvine so I'll be able to check some out soon. Just want to squeeze out a few more tracks before I send these out. Oh and by the way I was wanting some ideas for sonically fresh ideas not only at the level of one wavelength but also so far as well, again, percussive rhythms. Perhaps those are such to be linked to above, well I'll check it out soon enough. Thanks all...

Oh, and any ideas about the importance of musical elements (or parts for that matter) are welcome. It's always nice to hear any of that from anyone here.

bludstayne
01-07-2004, 06:34 PM
Another bit of advise: get a good intro to the song. If you catch someone early on in the song, they are more likely to listen closer to the music. I usually use a solo on a percussive instrument or a guitar to start. Anything will do though. It's pretty neat when all the instruments slowly get added to the song, instead of the always starting all at once.

When I refer to an instrument I am using a vague term. I mean it as an actual music instrument or a sample that can be mixed in the music.

I can't help you on the software, I use ACID Pro 4.0

afreedboy
01-07-2004, 11:45 PM
But Acid Pro can't create our own beat. Isn't it? I use to create my own drum beat for some of my hiphop songs.

Fahrenheit
01-08-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by afreedboy
But Acid Pro can't create our own beat. Isn't it? I use to create my own drum beat for some of my hiphop songs.

Hiphop makes you stupid

RobR
01-08-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by w00tsoft
Hiphop makes you stupid

As opposed to sweeping generalisation :rolleyes:

Fahrenheit
01-08-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by RobR
As opposed to sweeping generalisation :rolleyes:

right

Waldo2k2
01-10-2004, 11:42 PM
Everyone (besides you Rob, you know the skinny) needs to read this thread and STFU already:
http://www.flashdaddee.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8598

DavidP
01-11-2004, 05:34 PM
I think Strong Bad has a nice formula for the making of a good song:

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail45.html