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FillYourBrain
09-11-2003, 02:16 AM
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1135
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1669
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1256
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1335

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 02:19 AM
I wish the big terrorism thread I started (that was like a news update page) hadn't been deleted :(

FillYourBrain
09-11-2003, 02:24 AM
yeah, these were the best I could still find from the time period

adrianxw
09-11-2003, 03:19 AM
I remember that thread of yours Cheez. All the news servers here were totally swamped. I was in my office and had a good number of the development group crowded around as your updates were the only news we were getting.

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 03:23 AM
I know - that's why I was so ........ed when it got deleted. Not into the DPA, just frigging GONE.

adrianxw
09-11-2003, 04:12 AM
Historic thread.

Then you read some of the knee jerk, racist stuff in the others and wonder I suppose.

RoD
09-11-2003, 04:18 AM
I was still on Dragoness.org that year i believe. I had been visiting here under another name but not general D so sadly im not in those discussions.

FillYourBrain
09-11-2003, 04:22 AM
At the time, I was more shocked with the "you had it coming" attitude. No nation deserves to have civilians targeted and wiped out in that way.

RoD
09-11-2003, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by FillYourBrain
At the time, I was more shocked with the "you had it coming" attitude. No nation deserves to have civilians targeted and wiped out in that way.

Unless they initiate, imo. For example, we didnt have it coming imo, but i do feel that THEY had it coming when we went over there and raised hell.

FillYourBrain
09-11-2003, 04:29 AM
those that are terrorists have it coming. But we do not target civilians who just happen to live in a country we disagree with. Big difference. Now WW2 was a different time. Our A-bomb attack is something we wouldn't do today.

RoD
09-11-2003, 04:41 AM
Point taken. This is one of the main reasons i feel the war is over oil and other non-9/11 related disputes, because we are targeting a country not individuals. Which is wrong.

Brian
09-11-2003, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by FillYourBrain
Now WW2 was a different time. Our A-bomb attack is something we wouldn't do today.

Oh so the tens of thousands of innocent civilians back then were less human because it was 60 years ago? In 60 years will September 11th, 2001 be okay in your books?

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Brian
Oh so the tens of thousands of innocent civilians back then were less human because it was 60 years ago? In 60 years will September 11th, 2001 be okay in your books? Way better than the millions that would have been killed in a land invasion.

adrianxw
09-11-2003, 05:55 AM
I see this thread is going in the usual direction.

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 05:57 AM
Yup.

edit: Here, I'll stop it. Brian, you're right. We never should have dropped the atomic bombs. In fact, I don't know why we even got into WWII in the first place. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, we should have just said "Whoops, our bad" and moved Hawaii further away. We shouldn't even have an army, for we are AMERIKKKA and will misuse it to kill kittens, rape babies, and defile everything else that the rest of the world considers holy. I'm really sorry.

Brian
09-11-2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
Yup.

edit: Here, I'll stop it. Brian, you're right. We never should have dropped the atomic bombs. In fact, I don't know why we even got into WWII in the first place. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, we should have just said "Whoops, our bad" and moved Hawaii further away. We shouldn't even have an army, for we are AMERIKKKA and will misuse it to kill kittens, rape babies, and defile everything else that the rest of the world considers holy. I'm really sorry.

No, you were right. It's much better to test your shiny new weapons on those silly orange short people. Guess what? Pearl harbour was a military installation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Cities. Big difference. Japan had declared war before attacking, it's just somehow America misplaced that telegram.

Fountain
09-11-2003, 06:55 AM
Unless they initiate, imo. For example, we didnt have it coming imo, but i do feel that THEY had it coming when we went over there and raised hell.

ROD (and every1 else) LOTS, NAY millions of people thought you had it coming (as you put it)

Leave Brian alone, he is correct in the context of this thread :)

Govt-shush for once-it is obvious that every1 feels the same loss on this date that New Yorkers felt on 9/11.

I must NAY have to pass on my condolences to the people involved, and hope they can rebuild a BIT of their former lives.



edit: Here, I'll stop it. Brian, you're right. We never should have dropped the atomic bombs. In fact, I don't know why we even got into WWII in the first place. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, we should have just said "Whoops, our bad" and moved Hawaii further away. We shouldn't even have an army, for we are AMERIKKKA and will misuse it to kill kittens, rape babies, and defile everything else that the rest of the world considers holy. I'm really sorry.


If you know correctly (and understand pearl harbour) there were US citizens that gave you ADEQUATE warning-OH did you take the warnings to heed? NO obviously not. This argument is null and void as you knew about it..

Now, give peace and respect to the people who died 9/11, I can tell you that I watched it ALL on BBC news 24 and have never seen the like before. I had to get my missus to come home and watch, because it was surreal.

Post more later :)

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 06:59 AM
> Govt-shush for once-it is obvious that every1 feels the same loss on this date that New Yorkers felt on 9/11.

Obviously not, or else every single thread about this wouldn't have had the hell trolled out of it.


Originally posted by Brian
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were industrial centers housing most of Japan's plane making capabilities. Fixed it for you. Also, Japan had time to surrender after the first bomb, but they didn't. Sucks for them. But hay we had declared war, too, so that makes it okay!

FillYourBrain
09-11-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Brian
Oh so the tens of thousands of innocent civilians back then were less human because it was 60 years ago? In 60 years will September 11th, 2001 be okay in your books? ok, I didn't intend for my comment to send the thread there at all. I basically said that it is something we wouldn't do today. I'm not defending the actions of 60 years ago any more than I would defend the actions of napoleon. Don't be so eager to start a debate.

Fountain
09-11-2003, 07:11 AM
Obviously not, or else every single thread about this wouldn't have had the hell trolled out of it.

Well, thats the cross we have to bear (i miss dean).



And after the first bomb the whole-WTF happened ($$$$e hits the fan) you know NO government can decide that quick O)

Besides, the second bomb wouldve gone no matter what, and had a BIG impact on the outcome of the ww2.

ITS NOT about any of that (i have to swear) it is about the loss suffered on 9/11. PLEASE Every1 give respect, it is not that long ago, and EVERYBODY can remember what they did that aft. :)

Brian
09-11-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez

Fixed it for you. Also, Japan had time to surrender after the first bomb, but they didn't. Sucks for them. But hay we had declared war, too, so that makes it okay!

I'm sure the civilians, and not japans leaders were more likely to surrender. They had no choice.

read some of the accounts
http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Japan/Testimon

it's not pretty. It's something I'd definately be ashamed of if I were American.

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 07:17 AM
> It's something I'd definately be ashamed of if I were American.

Are you ashamed of some of the things Britain's done in the past? In my opinion, the bombs ended the war quicker and with a smaller loss of life than a mainland invasion of Japan would have been. Read anything about Okinawa? When we invaded there, people jumped off cliffs with babies in their arms rather than be captured, and that was nowhere near Tokyo. I am not ashamed of it in any way, shape, or form. Besides, if you're looking for atrocities in WWII, there are far better ones you can find. Check out stuff like the rape of Nanking, firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden, and oh yeah - the HOLOCAUST. Would you be ashamed to be a German because of something your grandparents may have been involved in 60 years ago?

edit: Japan's leaders were in Tokyo. Would you rather we had dropped the bomb there?

> the second bomb wouldve gone no matter what,

Why would we have dropped the second bomb if they had surrendered?

> what they did that aft.

Not a damn thing. We were kinda in shock.

Brian
09-11-2003, 07:17 AM
So if Osama had declared war first, what happened on september 11th would be A-OK in your books, govt?

Fountain
09-11-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by FillYourBrain
ok, I didn't intend for my comment to send the thread there at all. I basically said that it is something we wouldn't do today. I'm not defending the actions of 60 years ago any more than I would defend the actions of napoleon. Don't be so eager to start a debate.

MMM our boys were the bravest. Imagine going to office and them telling you you are going to the russian front (or africa) whereever! Very few did not give their lives for a world war! My folks did! Do you think you would join up tomo if you thought you would die? Are you brave? I, I doubt it!

Stuff WW11, the thread is about 9/11, and lets leave it that way. IT has sod all to do with ww11. THANK YOU!

Brian
09-11-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
would you be ashamed to be a German because of something your grandparents may have been involved in 60 years ago?


yep.

Fountain
09-11-2003, 07:22 AM
Are you ashamed of some of the things Britain's done in the past?

JESUS! come on Govt, we have generations more history than you, and whatever any1 says, it shows.

We had empire etc, and it is bred into us at every stage!

We fought ww11 for many reasons, but one of them is NOT to argue with YOU!

YOU are supposed to be our allie!


:)

DISGUISED
09-11-2003, 07:24 AM
I had just come home from working the third shift and turned on my TV only to find the initial reports. I watched the second plane crash and the continuous tragedies unfold live on the news. Truly a day to never be forgotten.

One thing that stands out in my mind pertaining to these boards, was that during the days to follow regardless of what country cprog members were from, nearly everyone flew an American flag avatar. Mine of course still stands to this day.

Fountain
09-11-2003, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Brian
yep.

AND if you ask anybody in GERMANY the same question (if they are 25+) they will FREELY ADMIT they were wrong. Many germans want to disacotiate themselves from the atrocities.

Give pppl a break!

Govtcheez
09-11-2003, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Brian
So if Osama had declared war first, what happened on september 11th would be A-OK in your books, govt? If you ignore the fact that Osama bin Laden's not a government, then according to your wacky-ass defintion from earlier, I guess so. I guess declaring war before totally clears you from any wrongdoing like indiscriminately killing civilians.

> JESUS! come on Govt, we have generations more history than you, and whatever any1 says, it shows.

According to Brian, you should still be ashamed of it. Time has no bearing at all.

Look, all I'm saying is that I refuse to say "omg I'm so sorry Japan". It brought a quick end to the war and saved lives on both sides. The only reason I'm not stopping is because Brian seems to insist I feel sorry for something that I (1) had nothing to do with and (2) believe was the far lesser of two evils.

Brian
09-11-2003, 07:37 AM
Go $$$$ yourself.

adrianxw
09-11-2003, 08:02 AM
Cool it now or it's gone - OKAY.

FillYourBrain
09-11-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Fountain
MMM our boys were the bravest. Imagine going to office and them telling you you are going to the russian front (or africa) whereever! Very few did not give their lives for a world war! My folks did! Do you think you would join up tomo if you thought you would die? Are you brave? I, I doubt it!

Stuff WW11, the thread is about 9/11, and lets leave it that way. IT has sod all to do with ww11. THANK YOU! Holy unreasonable lunacy batman! How are you people arguing with me? I'm not even making any points. Do you even see what you're responding to? My God! You might as well have that kind of reaction to something I post in the C++ forum!

FYB- Class A can be inherited from Class B because it closely resembles that type.
Fountain - f*** you FYB. America is the great satan. How dare you make that assertion!
FYB- What? I was talking about programming.
Brian- but you ignore the fact that America is after oil, you mindless American.

Brian
09-11-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by FillYourBrain
Holy unreasonable lunacy batman! How are you people arguing with me? I'm not even making any points. Do you even see what you're responding to? My God! You might as well have that kind of reaction to something I post in the C++ forum!

FYB- Class A can be inherited from Class B because it closely resembles that type.
Fountain - f*** you FYB. America is the great satan. How dare you make that assertion!
FYB- What? I was talking about programming.
Brian- but you ignore the fact that America is after oil, you mindless American.

...Right.

Anyway. My heart goes out to those who died on September the 11th and those who melted but were forgotten last month many years ago.

PJYelton
09-11-2003, 10:56 AM
>>Go $$$$ yourself.<<

Calm down, you don't want to do something rash that would bring down shame and guilt upon your great-great grandchildren do you? :rolleyes:

Silvercord
09-11-2003, 01:49 PM
Our initial reactions to 9-11 two years ago


holy ape $$$$ we're not as invincible as I used to think

I mean seriously if these poor rice eating towel heads can kill 3,000 people so easily...then...pardon my french but wtf

ZakkWylde969
09-11-2003, 07:05 PM
IMO (heh I used internet slang) we shouldn't argue on this thread. 9-11 was a tradjety no matter what anyone says. We should just pray or do whatever for the people lost and greatly damaged due to the cowardly terroristic attacks.

-KEN-
09-11-2003, 07:43 PM
Man, I was stupid 2 years ago.

(enter the "Hurr, don't you mean STUPIDER????" posts)

TechWins
09-11-2003, 08:51 PM
I remember walking into my 0 hour Math class a little before 7am PT and watching as the attacks had just been under way. It was the weirdest feeling in the world seeing that happen. Sadly, I remember a guy standing on an upper level and waving his shirt around for help, then (*gasp*) he jumped out of the window. A very upsetting day, indeed.

----------------------------------

Relating that day to any part of WWII is nonsense. WWII was a war (hence the second W) and on September 11th, 2001 in the USA there were 3 acts of terrorism; a very distinct difference.


PS - Being insultive when debating only worsens your credibility, remember that.

novacain
09-11-2003, 09:38 PM
It happened on prime time TV here (8pm).

Lets also remember the thousands who died 11 Sept 1973. When the democratically elected government of Chile was overthrown by General Pinochet.

Lets hope that the war on Terror will be over soon. So our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq will get home safe.

Lets hope for some sanity in negotiations in the West Bank.

Unfortunately I think we are yet to acknowledge our responsibilities in creating these situations and ultimately these terrorists.

Until we do there will be no true peace in the world.



>>So if Osama had declared war first, what happened on september 11th would be A-OK in your books, govt?

Actually Osama did declare war on the US and its allies years before S11.
The US press did not report these kinds of things then.
Clinton also attacked him with cruise missiles and sent Pakistani assassins after him, so the war was sort of under way already.

Just because you did not see it on CNN does not mean it was not happening.

ie Look up where Pinochet got his arms from. The documents were released in 1999.

nvoigt
09-12-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Fountain
AND if you ask anybody in GERMANY the same question (if they are 25+) they will FREELY ADMIT they were wrong. Many germans want to disacotiate themselves from the atrocities.
Give pppl a break!

Actually, about 99% of Germans any age will freely admit it was totally wrong and a horrific thing that should never happen again. There even exist laws which make lying about what happened back then a punishable offense. As is showing a swastika or SS runes.

Am I ashamed ? No. Why should I, I did nothing wrong. Nor did my parents. Nor my grandparents who were too young to vote back then... but old enough to be sent to the russian front to risk their lives five years later. My Grandgrandparents ? They probably were involved one way or another. Maybe by just staying silent. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". I didn't even know their names, so no, I'm not ashamed personally.

( I was thinking about something connected to this on my way to work, I think I'll just start another thread about it. )

I do think that bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a valid means of ending a war that was already decided. Same goes for Dresden and Hamburg. If you start a fist fight and don't surrender when your opponent draws a knife... you are plain stupid. They had it comming. Which doesn't mean they weren't victims. Or shouldn't be mourned. But they played with fire and got burned.

- - -

9/11 happened at about 15:00 here. I remember a colleague telling me a plane had crashed. When I asked if he made that up, he said a second one had crashed, too. And a third one. By then I was sure he made it up because he knew my flight to Washington was scheduled for the following thursday. It wasn't until I read the first news site, or rather non-news sites quoting them for the lack of available news-sites that I believed him.

PJYelton
09-12-2003, 09:06 AM
nvoigt, I'd have to agree with you almost 100% on the atomic bombings. Yes it was a very controversial decision and I do mourn those who died in the attack. But it was a quick and effective way to end a war that we did not start, and didn't cost the lives of hundreds of thousand american AND japanese soldiers that would have died if we had done a traditional invasion. I've spent 6 months in Japan and not once did I meet a Japanese person who blamed American in any way. Those in the world who are quick to judge America tend to be very short on alternatives the americans could have done that would have ended the war yet not cost as many lives.

I was in Thailand when 9/11 happened. My girlfriend and I were in an internet cafe when I got an breaking news email from cnn saying a plane had crashed into the world trade center, but no other details. I just assumed it was a small two person airplane and didn't think much of it. A few minutes later a second email came up talking about the second plane. I thought that was a little odd so tried to log onto cnn.com but it was overloaded with requests so I couldn't get on. Ditto for every other news site. I told my girlfriend we should leave since something was happening and as we were paying the cashier behind the booth was watching TV asked if we were american, and when we told him yes he told us what was going on. We hurried back to our hotel scared since my girlfriends father worked right next door the towers. LONG night for us trying to find out if he was alright, which he was thankfully.

Govtcheez
09-12-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by PJYelton
I just assumed it was a small two person airplane and didn't think much of it. Same with me. One of my roommates has an e-mail saved where I said it wasn't going to be a big deal.

FillYourBrain
09-12-2003, 09:22 AM
first thing I heard was a certain radio guy freaking out about fire and smoke pouring out of the tower. The airplane talk came later in that. This broadcast was based in NY where the towers could be seen from the window. I got to work in time to see the second plane hit and both towers fall. Very unusual day to say the least.

Brian
09-12-2003, 09:53 AM
I got told off at school because my phone beeped when my sister had SMSed me the news.

Fountain
09-13-2003, 02:17 PM
Open thread? Wow.

Just one point to those who think nukeing Japan was cool.

What? Oh the point? The point is nobody (especially US) could guarantee that the fission would actually cease after it did its job. You see, I am not actually mythering about WHO got killed (as all sides lost lives), but we could easily have lost THE WORLD!!

Yes I know nowadays we know better physics, but imagine it in WW11 days! The bomb droppers (nameless :rolleyes: ) did not know EXACTLY when the reaction would stop.

I know you wont believe me, but try Here (hehe as usual) (http://Google.com) and learn.

Thankyou.

Brian
09-13-2003, 02:46 PM
They had already tested the bomb. But they did have fears it would ignite the atmosphere.

Which is never a good thing.

PJYelton
09-13-2003, 02:48 PM
To Fountain:

Stop acting like Americans are happy that we nuked Japan because we aren't. We (or at least most) just simply view it as a sad but necessary evil.

Just because it was 60 years ago doesn't mean they were in the dark ages. Instead of just linking to google and making others do your dirty work, why don't you actually show some proof of your claims? Can't just make statements and make others have to prove it for you.

kermit
09-13-2003, 02:59 PM
You know, in all of this talk about the ethics of dropping atomic bombs on Japan, nobody seems to have pointed out that the Japanese sent some balloons over to North America with the intent of doing damage and harming civilians. Its been a while since I have done any reading on this, but I believe they sent some sort of bombs mounted on the balloons. I also think maybe they wanted to (or did) try some biological warfare by an attempt to introduce the plague though these means. Now sending a balloon up into the atmosphere is pretty tough to control when it is not manned -> so these balloons were not necessarily headed for military targets, but anybody who happened to fall in their path. And they did find the wreckage of some of those balloons in North America. So yeah its not good to kill a lot of civilian people with a big bomb, but lets not try and pretend that the Japanese did not also make their own attempts to harm innocent people.

As far as 9/11, while I was working I could not help but remember exactly where I was when i heard the news (driving to the lumber yard) and what the day was like (beautiful and sunny) and how I reacted (I thought somebody messed up until I heard about the second plane) What a horrible feeling it was for me. Its funny, normally I can laugh with the best of people, but I don't think i laughed for probably 3 days afterward, and I felt sick the whole time.

confuted
09-13-2003, 05:12 PM
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/div_bilder/94.html

A bit horrible.

bennyandthejets
09-13-2003, 06:21 PM
To me, it seems kind of heartless to put that fact in a record book. I know it's just a fact, but it still doesn't seem right.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the "break the record" button is just disguisting. In these recent times of terrorism, that's the last thing we need.